Independent 2nd grader and Oral vs. Written narration

[Mom2Monkeys]

DD7 has taken over reading our storytime books herself. Is there a reason to keep them as read-aloud only or should I just let her keep enjoying herself? She is desiring more independent work, so I've started giving her an "assignment sheet" and let her go. It's just a checklist of some of the work from Beyond (History and science readings, copywork, math...). I jump in on certain parts, but she is finishing now in half the time and enjoying it more. She is teaching herself and I feel guilty, but seeing her enjoying the work and getting it done so well is encouraging. She also wants to teach LHTH to the boys! And she's good at it! LOL Is this level of independence too much to allow for a 7yo if she's able to do it and enjoys it?

We are in Beyond, DD is 2nd grade. She has a hard time with oral narration. She goes on and on with way too much info that isn't in any certain order. Yesterday, I tweaked our science lesson a bit (Unit 10 Day 3) and instead of making a clay model of the sea floor, I allowed her to sketch it from the picture in the text then color it...followed by a written narration. I asked a couple starter questions and allowed her to "research" the answer in her text. She asked how to spell a couple words...I just told her to break it into chunks and sound it out. This seems to work for her. After writing, she was able to give a fairly organized oral narration.

I know oral narration is "supposed" to be before written, but what do you think about my having dd do it the other way around? Should I have her develop the oral narration skill before allowing her to write it?

Here is a copy of what she wrote with original spelling (God's Wonderful Works gr. 2, pg. 47) I thought it was pretty good, IMHO.

I learned many of the fish we eat are from the ocean shelf. Other fish swim near the ocean floor. And not just fish but interesting things like starfish and octopi, blowfish and many more! COOL! The sae has three levels, sea level, sea shelf, slide and the ocean floor. The sea shelf is made out of mud and sand and not very deep. I like sea and I hope you do too!

[my3sons]

Your daughter did a very nice written narration, so you should be proud of her for that! Oral narration is important to teach at a young age though, so I wouldn't replace the oral narrations with written in Beyond. I'm wondering if you could prompt her in the same way you did for the writing? Maybe jot down a few questions about the key idea for her on a marker board. Then let her reread whatever she'd like to, to prepare for the oral narration, and then have her orally narrate. That way she can "prepare" for it like she seems to enjoy doing. At first, just accept even 3 sentences of oral narration as being enough - and give her a hug, tell her she's doing great with it. I've learned that if I act like their oral narrations are not long enough or detailed enough at first, it discourages them to narrate again. Just accept whatever she gives you for awhile, and then give her one point at a time to work on using the Appendix of Beyond for suggestions. Hope something in here helps!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mom2Monkeys]

Hi Julie, Thanks for the input! I certainly won't replace the oral with the written. I like the ideas you gave for leading questions and allowing her to read through the material to prepare for the oral narration. I've been asking questions but not allowing her to look back to give details.

I need to teach her to narrow down her ideas and organize them. She gives WELL over 3 sentences and could make a new book off of one paragraph. She just has no order to it and tends to read between the lines giving "extra" info as to what might have been, etc. She's overly detailed as well. I can't seem to get her to think through and give main points. I was trying not to just ask certain questions so I wasn't the one doing the thinking...I wanted to know what she gathered from what we read. But, you think I should ask questions first, maybe teaching her what she's looking for and how to organize it??

[my3sons]

I posted quickly last time, during "recess" break - sorry I forgot about you saying she orally narrates with a lot of detail - too much sometimes. I remember that now - that will teach me to try to quickly check the boards, won't it? I have a nephew who did this. He is an animated little guy that loves to tell long stories with great detail. I love him dearly, but I know what it feels like to be that "captive" audience! I think your dd has decided that a good narration is a long one. This is not always true though. Sometimes a long narration is like a winding road, when all you want to do sometimes is get there! It helped my ds to give examples of this, and also my nephew too. I gave this example to help my ds understand this:

Suppose I just got a call from the doctor. He has an important message for me to give you. I could narrate this message to you 2 different ways. Here's the first way:
The doctor called a few minutes ago, and he had an important message for me to give you. He said he got your test results back - you know, I bet he gives a lot of tests in a day! Maybe tests for flu, blood tests, strep throat tests. His voice sounded kind of stressed too, now that I think about it. He was probably having a bad day. I wouldn't want to wear a white coat all day, but the stethoscope would be fun to wear. He was kind of short on the phone. I bet he was in a hurry. He must have a lot of calls to make in a day. He does have a phone in his office though, so that's good. I like to use the phone too. I'd like a phone in my room. He did tell me your test results on the phone though. He said you have Influenza B. I had that one time, remember? I think it was last year - no maybe 2 years ago. Well, when you have Influenza B you need to take some medicine, but I can't remember the name of it. It is sooooo expensive though - maybe if we got it a different place it would be less though. Um, he said something about how often to take it too. I think he mentioned how long you'll be sick, but I don't remember that. The end.

Here's the second way:
The doctor called and had an important message for me to give you. You have Influenza B, and you need to take some medicine called Tamaflu. It is important to take this medicine twice a day with food. If you start taking this medicine right away, you should be feeling some better within a few days, and completely better within 7-9 days. You can call the doctor back if you have any questions.

This helped my ds to see that though the first way was longer, it was not very helpful nor an accurate retelling of what the doctor said. The second narration was shorter, but a very good narration because it retold all of the important points. After giving several examples like this, my ds seemed to understand better that I was not looking for an extra-long narration with too many details, but rather a more to-the-point narration with just the important parts. Using the tips in the Beyond Appendix and also the narration lesson ideas in the daily plans of Beyond guide helped get my ds on track for being able orally narrate well. I hope some of this helps you too!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mom2Monkeys]

That is a great example! I have one more question now... Does it matter if she gives a narration of something she's heard or something she's read? I guess I'm wondering if I should take back over the story time books or let her keep reading them herself. She is so enjoying them

[my3sons]

O.k. so here are a few tips that might help too - she sounds like a visual learner - maybe some of these tips will help:
* Write a beginning sentence on a marker board for her, and write an ending sentence. Have her read the first one, tell the middle, and read the end. Try to wean her off of this after a bit.
* You narrate instead of her, maybe every other time or so. Making sure to keep your narrations short and to the point.
* You say a bit more loudly in her ear while you are reading a main point, person, or event.
* You narrate the first part, and have her narrate the end - then vice versa.
* Compliment her on what she did well with, but then say your one thing you want her to work on is just sharing the BIG things that happened in the order they happened.
* You start her off by saying the beginning of it and let her tell the middle and the end.

Just a few ideas! The best thing for improving narration is simple the passage of time though. She'll grow into it - I am 100% positive! She sounds like a smart little cookie. She'll be good at this in no time!

In Christ,
Julie

[my3sons]

Oh, I was typing the same time as you last time! Oops! Well, I think I would take back the Storytime reading because she needs to be able to orally narrate from listening to someone else reading. Later, she'll be narrating from what she's read independently, and still later narrating from what she's reading by writing. My ds was a better writer than oral speaker, but this order still worked wonders for him. However, when my ds wants to read a book I've read out loud to him, I let him reread whatever he wants to after I've read for the day - he just can't read past where we stopped for the day. Anticipation is key!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mom2Monkeys]

Thanks so much Julie! I'll put the tips you've listed to use. And something I've forgotten about, our narration cube. I might find that and give it a try sometimes as well. I'm not so good at reading comp. either so it's a real battle for me to guide her. We'll both work on comp and retelling a concise account of what it was about. I really appreciate your thoughts! Thanks again.

[Kathleen]

Hey, I've got a little question here too as I've got one of the LONG narrators currently. This is my 1st experience with narrating - although I know my son has done it spontaneously for a long time. (He happens to love to talk , a lot.)

Carrie said that for me the best thing would be to settle in for the long talk as he narrated. I don't remember if it was from Carrie or not, but I know I also read somewhere that CM style narrations and Classical narrations differ in that CM doesn't say there's a "right way" to narrate while Classical style says that summarizing a neat version of the main points is important.

I loved your ideas, Julie! (I think they may pare down the narrations I'm hearing. ) My ds goes in absolute chronological order, contains a few "bunny trail" thoughts, but mostly just makes sure EVERYTHING is there. I guess what I'm wondering is if I should say anything or let him narrate his way? Like I said, I'm totally new to this and I'm sure there are many more experienced moms out there! I'm quite sure that I won't have LONG narrations when we move to writing them. He is very concise when it comes to writing!

Just thinking with you here...
Kathleen