Placing DS16 - World History w/ writing difficulties

[abrightmom]

DS15 will be 16 this fall. He was in a private school as a freshman. He didn't do well in English or in courses with major writing requirements. He also experienced significant distress with multiple projects assigned simultaneously; having a major research paper assigned while also juggling essays and such was too much for him. He did well in Spanish, Geometry, Bible, Biology and PE. He did well in the portions of English that didn't require major writing or critical thinking. He finds it very difficult to have something to say. It's not an area he's growing in although I hope he can grow in it. It's difficult to know how to teach him to think critically about reading. He just doesn't care and he doesn't find it profitable to evaluate an author's intent or to try to explain what CS Lewis means by what he writes. He had such difficulty answering questions about CS Lewis' Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters.
He spent his 8th grade year writing persuasive literary essays and it was never easy. He didn't progress in his skills. He has a very low working memory which impacts his abilities in writing (makes written expression difficult along with many other challenges!). He will be homeschooling for the remainder of high school and I'm strongly considering the World History guide with some modifications. I'd like to address those and ask if this is doable or possible for him. If I use the placement chart he places in Missions to Modern Marvels in the writing component and he does struggle with oral narrations; his low working memory impacts this as well. I don't want to place him in the MTMM guide because he is a mature reader who needs to be engaged and challenged by the content despite the narration/writing issues.

Here is a short list of questions and statements related to the modifications I would make for him. I desire to use the guide as close to "as written" as possible but some changes are necessary. I would appreciate feedback. I know it's ideal to use HOD "as written" but in this case it isn't possible.

Is it possible to use the World Geography guide but modify the length of the oral and written narrations in order to work with his limitations?
Would it be wise to step back to Essentials in Writing 10? I'm still sorting out the differences between 10 and 11 but I think 10 has some teaching he may benefit from.
**Would I just jump into R&S 7 second half with him? Would I start at the beginning?** I have no idea where he is at with grammar. He has had grammar instruction every year both in private school settings and in various homeschool courses. We used R&S through English 5 (completed it at end of 6th). He used ACE Paces in 7th (they had thorough grammar instruction), had grammar review in his 8th grade Lit/Writing course (and Season 1 of Analytical Grammar which was all too easy). His freshman English teacher was rigorous and thorough; she taught some grammar skills but I don't know what they were. He always scored well on grammar exams.
He did Biology as a freshman so we will either do IPC or Chemistry. The pace of the IPC from World Geog. concerns me. He is a tad slower at getting his work done. "Clipping along" isn't his style. He is a "plodder" and always will be. I usually need to create margin in his schedule to allow for this.
He will do Algebra II.
He did Old Testament Survey as a freshman. We will keep Pilgrim's Progress but I'm not sure what, if anything, I will do about the Bible portion. How much time is allotted for The Most Important ... Study? I'd like to add in Practical Happiness as we didn't do the World Geography guide. I am considering doing the half credit of Logic and only striving for half a credit in Bible to give a balance and allow him to acquire necessary courses.
He is a strong, avid reader so will likely use the Living Library.
He will do 1/2 Fine Arts credit. He may complete half of the art projects in order to do .75 credit. He earned .25 toward Fine Arts by participating in theater at the school. This would give him a full credit of Fine Arts and utilize that .25 credit that is floating out there .
I will only be homeschooling my rising 10th grade son (this one I am talking about) and my rising 3rd grader. I will have a bit more time to dedicate to helping him with the writing and narrations.

I'm drawn to the World History guide because of the literature and how it is taught. He wouldn't need the BJU Literature in the Geography guide as he's had PLENTY of that type of learning in 8th and 9th grade. He is well versed in literary elements and needs a break from that style of literature analysis. The CM style literature approach in this guide is of great interest to me. The electives in the World History guide are also of interest. The only missing element is Logic. It's possible that in lieu of doing a full credit of Bible due to not needing OT Survey we could do a half credit study in Logic.

[Rice]

I can't answer all of your questions, but do know that you're not the only one with a similar situation. One major difference is that we started HOD 4 years ago, with a very rough start, including switching guides after 10 units of frustration because my DS (Executive Functioning struggles) couldn't handle the workload of the guide he otherwise placed in, for organizational and writing reasons. We've now come to the place where he does the guide in which he places and can handle the workload for "core HOD" (history, storytime, rotating box: geography, timeline, etc.), and a different guide for science and LA (and this year Bible, as well). It's a lot of flipping between guides, but I write out schedules for us and it meets him where he is at for overall workload vs credits needed.

This coming year my 16yo will be starting 11th and is using:
~MTMM for history, geography, storytime, Extensions
~WG (with brother & sister) Essentials In Writing 10, IPC science (with me reading the text aloud while they do questions, then adding the quizzes and tests back in to give my non-STEM children 2 credits of science this year - it's heavy with about 1 hr science per day), as well as the 1/2 credit Logic
~WH for Bible and literature (though we dropped 2 books he's previously read and moved it to 3 days per unit - to allow that flex in his schedule that is so important)

Yes, it's possible to modify the length of the oral and written narrations - if he places in MTMM you could either use that for history (as we are) or simply use those guidelines (length of written narrations, etc.). Personally, though my son is using MTMM, I would like to increase to a WG or WH length this year, but on top of the writing from EIW, that may not happen.

Grammar - I would do the placement test for it. You may be better (especially if looking for flex) to start lower, depending on where he places. The scope & sequence of R&S may be quite different from what he has done in the past. (https://www.milestonebooks.com/list/Bui ... sh_Series/ - you need to email them for the answer key, but the test is free on this page.)

My 2 cents would be to do the guide where he places skill-wise (you mentioned MTMM), then use the literature you want for him (WH) along with it, rather than overloading him in work load. (The high school guides are very heavy workloads; MTMM will be more manageable and allow flex for him. I don't think you'll find the MTMM books lacking in interest for him, and you can use the Extensions like the Living Library, awarding 10% credit for completing them.) If you don't need the State Study or President Study, you can use that time to fit in the Logic and Fine Arts.

Feel free to disregard all of my suggestions; I know that what works for one family won't necessarily fit another. I also hope that Carrie or Julie will chime in here. They were so very helpful when placing (and re-placing) my son, as well as for deciding how to move forward each year and get everything in that we need.

Blessings as you decide!

[christianmom]

I’ve been looking at the placement chart with my own 15 year old in mind.

I thought this quote I copied from the HOD web-site by the placement chart may help you:

Each of the rows is placed in order of importance for correct placement, so consider the first row (AGE) to be more important than the second row (READING); the second row (READING) is more important than the third row (WRITING), and so forth.

It sounds like he’s a very strong reader. My son is too. I would factor in age and reading as more important than writing as Carrie indicated. It sounds like both his science and math are advanced, and he is set up to potentially have Calculus in 12th. I haven’t done WH, but from my HOD experience I think you could make the guide as the writing goal and work up to it throughout the year starting at a length he could handle. He doesn’t sound MTMM level to me. Is that where he placed for writing? Carrie indicates the column with the most circles to be the best placement, and from what you are saying only writing would have the MTMM placement and the rest would be higher, correct?

I hope it can all come together in clarity for your decision.

Blessings,

[abrightmom]

Thank-you Rice and christianmom for your input and for helping me to think through ideas.

I did use the Placement Chart and he fits well into the World History guide with the exception of WRITING. Honestly, I think he's somewhere between RTR and MtMM depending upon the skill in writing and narrations. Now, he is ABLE to learn to write narrations, answer critical thinking questions, write essays, write a short research paper, etc. However, I may need to scale back the length of the written work or even eliminate some of it at times if he is overloaded. He will also do some of his work on the 5th day although I'm not quite sure how we will space things out. For this upcoming school year it will be better for him to have school structure M-F.

He cannot write lengthy narrations and he has not practiced various types of oral narrations. However, I believe he can learn these things in the WH guide as long as we start out with scaled back expectations such as narrating from a shorter selection and writing a shorter narration.

R&S English is another question. I looked at the scope and sequence and believe he'd be better off using R&S 7 from the beginning rather than jumping into the middle. I wouldn't want to "double up" and utilize it daily as I think he'd be overloaded with language arts skills. But I'd like him to be ready for 8 next year with US1. What would you all recommend in terms of a sequence with R&S if using HOD for the rest of high school is feasible for him (I think it is!)? I could do "grammar only" in English 7 and focus our writing efforts solely on narrations and EIW. This would allow us to use English 8 "as written" in the final two guides. I think he'll have plenty to do writing wise and with his learning challenges in this area it may help him do better work if he has fewer writing assignments. Perhaps I'll peek at English 7 again and see what kinds of writing instruction it contains.

I'm looking at the grammar/composition box for WH through US2 and thinking this way:

10th/WH - EIW 10 or 11 (I need to know if 10 would be better for him; is it more fundamental?) and R&S 7 (first half or entire book?)
11th/US1 - He can use EIW 11 OR do the box "as written". However, he'd be skipping half of English 7 which wouldn't work. Carrie writes this about the US1 comp/grammar I'd like to aim for it: "The combination of In Their Sandals and Rod and Staff English 8 works well, since the first half of English 8 covers expository, persuasive, narrative, and descriptive paragraphs; outlining; writing compositions; proofreading; researching; note-taking; and developing oral and written reports. Yet, In Their Sandals is a strong program on its own as it takes students through the writing process (teaching many elements of literature and composition along the way) and guides them in writing from various styles and points of view. It includes note taking and writing from notes, summarizing narrative stories from varying viewpoints, summarizing multiple references, researching for reports, epistolary writing, and creative writing, as well as taking students through the writing process (i.e. research/prewrite, outline plot, develop descriptions, write, apply, revise). This composition course hits areas of writing that are often neglected, and also goes well with the New Testament Survey we will be doing for Bible in the upcoming American History Guide.
12th/US2 - Again, using the box "as written" would be IDEAL and I'm hoping to somehow get there . Here is Carrie's description: In the US2 guide, the combination of the daily "Literature Journal" assignments + weekly oral/written narrations that are a part of the British Literature box paired with the last half of English 8 results in a strong composition and grammar combination. The last half of English 8 covers narrative, persuasive, expository, and descriptive writing; poetry; outlining; summarizing; writing compositions; proofreading; researching; note-taking; and developing oral reports.

Any advice on how to structure the grammar/comp sequence to allow us to have balance, build up his narration skills (both oral and written), and utilize the guides as closely as possible "as written". Thanks! I have looked carefully at many of the resource samples, the sample weeks, the TOC and grading portions, etc. I really feel that he can do this guide as long as I can find a balanced, doable way to work with him on writing. It's a true issue for him and probably always will be. However, he is intelligent, easily bored and needs to be stimulated by his school work. He also does better with variety. He is bored out of his skull with read/regurgitate kinds of school work yet he is distressed with too many essays and critical thinking assignments. I'm hoping to find a flexible middle ground for him!

[StephanieU]

What type of history did he get last year?
One option might be to do World Geography (assuming that wasn't what he had last year in school), skipping the BJU English. There are novels scheduled in the guide as well, and with his writing challenges, I think it might be enough. You could add in some of the books scheduled in maybe US2 or other classics if you wanted to round out the literature portion.

[Rice]

I did use the Placement Chart and he fits well into the World Geography guide with the exception of WRITING. Honestly, I think he's somewhere between RTR and MtMM depending upon the skill in writing and narrations.)

Based on this alone, there is no way I would attempt to put him in WH. When choosing between two guides, if you're not sure which one would be a better fit, I always suggest going with the lower of the two (especially if you are then wanting to add a few subjects from a higher guide, which would increase their work load even more). Since he'd place fine in WG with the exception of writing, that is the highest I would go.

I've been there, trying to place my son where I want him to be, hoping he can rise to meet the challenge. HOD is very advanced, a very heavy workload in the high school years, and though your son's strength in reading will help, the overall workload that is expected, even if modified, may be very challenging, to place him in a higher guide than where he fits skill-wise (basically across the board, except reading [and math, which isn't related], from what you've said). I don't wish on anyone the first 10 units we had before moving my son to a guide where he fit better skill-wise. It was a hard 3 months.

I do hope Carrie chimes in, though, and adds some clarification.

Blessings,

[abrightmom]

Oh dear! I meant to write that he places in World History except for the writing and narrations! I edited that post

[Nealewill]

I tried to delete this but can't. So please skip this

[Nealewill]

He cannot write lengthy narrations and he has not practiced various types of oral narrations. However, I believe he can learn these things in the WH guide as long as we start out with scaled back expectations such as narrating from a shorter selection and writing a shorter narration.

It sounds to me like he can probably catch up by the end of the year with a bit of work. If it were me and he placed very well in this guide with everything except the writing and narration, I would probably select WH and would just start my year off a little bit slowly. I would work on the writing but also give a little bit of grace. I would shorten the length of the narrations by a small amount but I would avoid skipping any of the writing assignments. That is because by working on the skills and just giving him improvements to work on through the year, he will get better more quickly. And I would just take your first few weeks much more slowly to give him time to getting used to it. Maybe do half days for the first few weeks until he can get used to the volume of the writing. As for the oral narrations, I would just do some hand holding and let him work on that throughout the year.

[chillin'inandover]

Katerina,
My son just completed WH and sounds similar in skill to your son. WH provided numerous opportunities to develop critical thinking skills in the history portion of the guide. Too numerous to mention so I'll only mention those from history. "You Are There!" has opinion narrations and graphic organizer notes. There are Critical Thinking questions from Short Lessons and from Critical Thinking (including verdicts from a Mock Trial). The World History journal notebook has reflection questions from Primary Source Documents and Historical Map interpretations, weekly written narration, oral narrations (opinion, detailed, summary, key word, and recorded), and Talking points. That's just the history portion. My son fared better in this section than the Literature, but it sounds like your son may do fine with this. My son prefers nonfiction genre rather than fictional genre. The history has enough direction and opportunity to develop critical thinking skills! I think it would be a great year using WH, I know my son was blessed by it.

If you can financially swing getting the WG guide you could have your son complete the Essentials in Writing 10th grade, Bible, and Logic. The Essentials in Writing has been a wonderful incremental writing curriculum. Having 2 years of EIW firmed up his writing. So your son could do the EIW in WG this year and EIW in WH next year.

[abrightmom]

Is it possible to use EIW 10 in lieu of 11 and just “do the next lesson”? He won’t do the Bible this year although I plan to use Bible in the US guides if this HOD plan works well. I’d rather not buy the WG guide. I’m thinking that if I know which lessons to use we could just do the next lesson until we are done, doing the routine of alternating R&S and EIW. I do think the incremental teaching of EIW would help him grow as a writer.

[abrightmom]

Purchasing the WG guide may be wise after all. I’d like to use the grammar/composition and Logic. I’m also considering the WG science plans as he is done with Biology. I don’t plan to do a Bible credit this year but I do plan to read/discuss Practical Happiness from WG and to use the one day a week Pilgrim’s Progress study. We will also do scripture memory because it is important. I need to lay it all out so we aren’t doing too many credit hours.

World History 1
IPC 1
English (grammar, composition, literature) 1
Algebra II. 1
Spanish .5 or 1 (He has a year of Spanish already. I am considering using Carrie’s plans although the approach is different for him. We will discuss ease of use vs the outside class. He can use the plans in WH as he has Spanish under his belt )
Fine Arts .5
Health .5
Logic .5
I am not sure what to do about PP or Practical Happiness. Maybe we will design our own .5 credit for Bible that includes these resources. I’m not sure what to do here but half a credit would work. He is highly interested in apologetics.

Am I missing anything? This plan uses both WG and WH guides but sets us up to move to US1 with very little jumping around as we will then use Chemistry and Bible.

** Does IPC followed by Chemistry seem like Chemistry overkill?? I am concerned. I’d like him to have the Physical Science but it sounds like it isn’t enough and that IPC is stronger.

[christianmom]

* Does IPC followed by Chemistry seem like Chemistry overkill?? I am concerned. I’d like him to have the Physical Science but it sounds like it isn’t enough and that IPC is stronger.

I don’t think it would be overkill to have Chemistry follow IPC. IPC introduces some of the base knowledge needed for High school chemistry and physics. I think the IPC would help prepare him for Chemistry unless you think he’s ready for Chemistry without it. I think you have a good plan to not have him repeat High school Biology.

Here is a description of IPC off the HOD web-site that might be helpful:

This course integrates the disciplines of physics and chemistry at the introductory level. Topics studied include: matter, atomic structure, Periodic Table, compounds and bonding, solutions, chemical equations, acids and bases, Newton’s Laws, momentum, velocity, acceleration, force and motion, waves, mechanical energy, work energy, machines, thermal energy, power sources, electricity, circuits, magnetism, and more. The focus is upon the people, concepts, and principles of chemistry and physics. Students earn 1 full-year credit in Integrated Physics & Chemistry upon completion of this course.


A solid Physical Science course will teach what IPC teaches and introduce both Physics and Chemistry. These introduction classes for Physics and Chemistry either fulfill the Physical Science credit needed for students who won’t go beyond Biology in science, or they lay the groundwork for those who will go onto Chemistry or Physics or both.

With him having finished Biology and Algebra 1, he could technically do Chemistry 1 this year. My son is in the same position, but like you I’m wanting to work on his writing and introduce a helpful base of information for Chemistry and Physics that he never had since we skipped Physical Science. Then Chemistry would follow the introduction which I think would actually be helpful to complete first.

IPC is very different from a High school Chemistry course. High school Chemistry uses Algebra and can be quite rigorous with the balancing of equations and use of inorganic chemistry. IPC introduces the topics of physics and chemistry in a way that would build a foundation for later. So I don’t think it would be overkill to do both since IPC prepares for the later Chemistry course that is usually taught in 10th or 11th. I will lastly add, the main differences between a course like IPC for Physical Science and a course like BJU for Physical Science is the latter will include mathematical equations at an 8th grade level of math and the former is a more Living book approach; this information is based on my research of the two and my science background.

I hope that helps.

Blessings for your decisions. I’m in the process of making them too.

[abrightmom]

Thanks for the IPC/Chemistry explanation. It is so helpful! After reading through the samples and your explanation I’m so comfortable using it for 10th grade.