Problems with Medieval History Writing Lessons

[tpschettle]

Hello. I know you ladies always give great advice, so I’m finally here with a situation that’s been a problem since probably week 3.

My oldest DS is on Week 21 of R2R. He’s 12. He should love Medieval History Writing Lessons for the fun writing projects, but the method has him pulling out his hair.
Writing has always been the skill that’s been the most difficult for him, topped off by his difficulty with spelling. When he was young, we tried several Charlotte Mason approaches to language, causing him to sit and stare blankly whenever he was asked to write. He had much better success when I started using Rod & Staff. He could do those writing assignments without too much stress.

Fast forward to HOD, which I absolutely LOVE! It meets all my expectations and goals, but we’re back in bad-writing land again with MHWL. The assignments are all on topics that he loves, but they are just not improving his writing. I find that he’s spending way too much time “dressing up” writing that’s just not good quality to begin with. The approach seems backwards to me. I feel that part of the problem is that the sentences he’s required to write are ones he can’t even diagram yet.

This is a real sentence from his last assignment: “Bustling people hurried along the cold streets, and vine covered, gray stone buildings opening and closing.” We have problems like confused tenses, fragments with long descriptions and no predicate, etc. Not to mention the fact that doors, not buildings, open and close! BTW, the idea for gray stone buildings he borrowed directly from me. He has a very hard time coming up with ideas even though he’s a very creative child. I don’t know how to help him without giving him the answers. Writing is a subject that came quite easily to me, so I feel like I don’t really know how to teach it.

He reads like the wind with good comprehension, although he’s much better at summarizing than remembering details. His R&S writing assignments are pretty well-done but basic, and he does fine on his written narrations, too (aside from spelling mistakes.) However, the fact that he’s writing sentences like these gives me the impression that he’s behind in writing, and I’m searching for how to best help him.

I’m hoping that someone else has dealt with this problem and I’m not the only one! The first thing I considered was ditching MHWL and just doing R&S at a more accelerated pace, because he’s had success in the past with that. I’m thinking that if I could get him through the rest of Levels 5 and 6 (he’s starting 7th grade), he would be more up-to-speed. This approach would also make me feel better because I’d have a goal and a measure of our progress.

My other idea is continuing to do the MHWL projects, but ditching the dress-up requirements. I think it’s better to have a list of ways to make sentences more interesting when needed rather than actually REQUIRING them to be done in every paragraph, especially when paragraphs are close to 4 sentences in length because one can’t think of anything to write! This approach would still require him to create, but would leave me with continued nagging fears over whether he’s really making any progress or not.

I'm wondering how either of these approaches will affect future guides. Is there any disadvantage to being ahead in R&S? How does MHWL compare to the writing programs in subsequent guides?

Your suggestions and opinions will be much appreciated! Thank you in advance! 

[LynnH]

Where are you in Rod and Staff now? You want him to finish 6 by the end of 8th grade so you would want to "speed" those up to getting through level 5 for 7th grade and then do all of level 6 for 8th grade. I don't know that this will help your problem though. While there are some writing assignments in Rod and Staff, it doesn't cover everything he needs to know before high school which is why separate writing programs are scheduled. So when he writes his written narrations he forms well structured sentences? When my ds did Medieval Writing lessons he would write sentences his normal way and then go back and add in the dress ups instead of trying to think of the dress ups as he went. Is that what your ds does or does he try and do the dress ups as he goes? I'm just thinking that if he can do written narrations with solid sentence structure then he should be able to do these with solid sentence structure, so maybe he is trying to do the dress ups etc first instead of a solid sentence first. I guess some kids can think them in their head as they go,but I know for myself and my son I have to see something basic in writing first before I can figure out how to change it.

The other writing programs scheduled in the guides are not like IEW at all. They don't tell them to put in a certain number of -ly words or anything like that. Each one is different and teaches a little different way from the other years. In fact the one in Rev to Rev is a creative writing program that takes much less structured approach.

[lmercon]

IEW is an excellent writing program especially for kids who have a hard time writing because it is so structured. IEW does not particularly "care" that the writing may seem stilted. The point is for them to force themselves to use the sentence openers and dress-ups. Later, when they have all these stylistic techniques firmly under their belts, they'll be able to pick and choose at their discretion which fit best. I would definitely continue to insist on the stylistic techniques in his writing, as that is a core part of IEW. He will pick it up. My ds has improved tremendously using IEW, to the point where I've chosen to continue using their programs. The student intensive programs are really great as they are taught using DVDs, which my ds loved. It can take a while for kids to learn.

[jhperry]

My kiddos struggled with writing as well...until IEW! Their writing improved tremendously over this past year. We loved the program...the structure, the given topics, the clear directions, the checklist, etc. I would suggest maybe trying to get the Structure and Style Overview DVD ($10, I think). It's a 2 hour overview of their system and it really does help from a teaching standpoint. I watched it recently but wished I had watched it prior to our beginning the program. I think there is a free webinar on their website too...that might be a good place to start.

Are you using the Student Resource Notebook? Also, don't be afraid to help as much as your child needs you to. Maybe start with a simple sentence that lacks interest but is a legitimate, complete thought. Then, help your child identify the noun and add a quality adjective (using the SRN for ideas), then let him identify the verb and add an adverb (again, using the SRN if needed). Do the same with the other techniques. Eventually, the student should begin to incorporate more of those into his writing the first time around, but it may take awhile to get to that point. You can also back off on some of the things on the checklists if it is too much...only require 2 sentence openers instead of 3 or 4, 2 dress-ups in each paragraph, etc.

IEW believes a student can use parts of speech without having to fully understand their rules and definitions. So, it wouldn't matter that they couldn't diagram all the parts of speech, but should still be able to use them in a sentence. They eventually learn what an adverb clause is because they have learned how to use one.

One more thing Andrew Pudewa stresses in the seminar is to have the student verbally retell the story from his key word outline before they begin to write. So, the student makes the KWO, verbally retells the story from the key words, begins writing the actual sentences, then goes back and adds in dress-ups and openers (if they aren't already included). You can probably drop the verbal retelling later on but I think it's a good practice, especially if your student is struggling.

Hope some of that helps! I would definitely encourage you to stick with it

[Little Women]

It sounds like he may have a disability in expressive language. He seems to take it in readily, but not put it out very well. If he reads back over it, can he find the places that don't work? If you can talk through what he's writing before or as you go, perhaps that will help. You might be able to find good ideas for help if you Google "expressive language disorder."

[tpschettle]

I thought I just posted a reply, but it is gone. Hopefully it won't show up again later in duplicate, but here it is again:

Thanks so much for your replies!

LynnH: We are doing R&S as scheduled in the guide right now. He is on Lesson 95 out of 119 in English 5. My concern is that he’s at the very top end of the guide’s recommended age range. Since this is his first experience with HOD, we went half pace up until now. He finished his 6th grade math last week, so I was planning to start him on full days with extensions until he’s ready to go into Rev2Rev. This gives him even more practice with narrations, written and oral.

He adds the fragments and wacky things trying to “dress up” what he has already written. His first draft always has correct grammar, apart from mixing tenses.

I wish he had the benefit of the strong foundations laid in the previous guides, because I see what a difference that is making for my youngest son, who recently finished Bigger & is now breezing through the extra writing required in Preparing. All of this would have been SUCH a good foundation for DS#1, if he had had the opportunity!

I just read through some of the writing threads under “Reasons for HOD’s Choices,” so I am comforted with putting MHWL into perspective in the grand scheme of things. It helps to know that other approaches may stick better with him and that he will have those opportunities in the future. I have been so pleased with how much writing HOD has him doing across all the subject areas that I really questioned the need for extra writing practice beyond R&S anyway, especially if he were in a higher level. My original idea was that he could work through English 9 and 10 and get all the writing he needs using the formal approach that seems to work best for him. However, I’m optimistic that another creative writing approach in a future guide will be a good fit.

Jhperry: I think your idea of verbally retelling the story from the KWO may help him a lot. I will try that. His practice so far has been to complete the KWO, then tie the key words together with as few additional words as possible and call it a rough draft. You can imagine that dressing up such a draft is quite an undertaking! Your approach would definitely get his imagination more involved and hopefully make it less stressful. He might even like using a voice recorder to help him put some things down.

Imercon: Many, many acquaintances of mine have had positive experiences similar to yours. I’ve stuck this out for so long because I’ve assumed that it HAS to be something I’m doing wrong rather than a problem with the method that everyone else loves.

I can’t explain why this is, but he just seems to feel more comfortable writing a sentence once he’s seen how it works on a diagram. It seems like he writes just like he builds Lego sets. He would never ever think of buying a set and putting it together without using the step-by-step directions because he wants it to look just right—but he breezes through the step-by-step instructions. R&S is like step-by-step instructions to writing. When he sees how a sentence works, he can make one like it. Baby steps. No stress.

Maybe I should have him diagram a –ly word opener, a #2 opener, & a w/w clause so he can see how they work? I’d have to look that last one up myself because I don’t know either!!

Thanks again for your help and ideas!

[Little Women]

Ok, so he writes ok, he just mixes things up with the dress ups? That's a lot easier to fix! If he can catch it when he goes back through, then I'd leave it at that. He will get better at it as the year progresses.

[luv2homeschool]

I just wanted to say that my son sounds like yours, and we barely made it through the MHWL. We did it totally together, and I felt that the final drafts were sometimes as much my writing as his. The creative writing portions were sheer agony for both of us. I've always said that he has no imagination, everything is very black and white to him (he also had a terrible time with the Emily Dickinson poetry!) and anything that he had to make up himself sounded like a kindergartner had written it. Part of post removed by board moderator per board rules.

[tpschettle]

I tried following some of your suggestions today, ladies.
I am so torn about this because I hate deviating from the guide. They are put together so well. I know that everything has a purpose and I don’t want my son to miss anything.

He was able to straighten out some of the mixed up sentences, but with others he could not identify that there was a problem. Furthermore, I don’t have to tools right now to explain the problem, I just know that it is not right. Certain descriptive clauses can go under “who or which” and other ones need their own predicate. I don’t know how to explain it to him. He never tries to write such complicated sentences apart from MHWL, so there is no problem in his other writing, other than lack of detail. It just seems really clear that we need more grammar.

Thanks so much for your input, luv2homeschool! It really helps to know that I’m not the only one on the planet! Our experience is very similar. It feels like I’m writing the papers & he’s not absorbing anything by working with me. Have you had a better experience recently?

Creativity with writing is just really hard for him. I remember in the early grades he had to list rhyming words for one curriculum we used. He had such a hard time that I actually taught him to go through the alphabet one letter at a time to see if the letter would make a new word with the ending of the first word. Even that took forever. It was painful for both of us.

He’s a very social child. He has no problems with speech…just creating something out of nothing for a writing assignment. R&S assignments are so much more manageable.

[Nealewill]

I understand you are frustrated and I can understand that it is challenging for your son. If it were me, I would help him edit his paper and literally help/tell him how to restructure those sentences. If he doesn't see it, you telling him what to write is okay too IMHO. That is what I have done to help my kids. I know it may not seem like "help" but realistically, that is how my kids learn. Me telling and showing a few times has gone a LONG way. If I show them or do it for them, they eventually get it. I am not saying write their paper entirely but I guess I am saying that lots of hand holding is fine if you are fine with it.

[Carrie]

Tina,

I think I was typing at the same time as the previous poster, so this is not a response to her post but rather some further advice that you may find helpful.

The ladies are doing a terrific job of helping of giving advice. One thing to keep in mind as you proceed through Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons is that you will want to be careful not to turn the writing assignments into a grammar activity. What I mean is that while as parents we may want to downshift into explaining grammar rules whenever our kiddos leave something dangling, it often overwhelms both student and teacher to speak about writing in this manner throughout the editing process. It leaves us both trying to come up with the grammar rule that has been broken within a child's writing, when in reality it isn't necessary to be that specific when correcting errors.

Of course, when kiddos do not write in complete sentences (and use fragments), it is wise to point that out and explain why the sentences are not complete. In looking at the example you shared from your son's writing, "Bustling people hurried along the cold streets, and vine covered, gray stone buildings opening and closing," I would be inclined to compliment him on the description that he used in the opening of his sentence. Next, I would share that his sentence isn't complete as written, read aloud the problematic part, and help him fix it to make it more clear. You might lead him by asking him to clarify what part of the stone buildings are opening and closing.

Often as parents, we want our kiddos writing to turn out a certain way. Yet, we forget that writing is a process that must be talked through, and thought through, and revised, and rewritten. As students mature and become better writers they can do much of this process in their head before putting words on paper. But, when kiddos have not had much exposure to this process, they must instead go through the process after the words are on the paper. This takes longer, but is a part of the process.

So, while you can switch writing programs, you will still need to teach your child the process of writing. With that in mind, I would be inclined to encourage you to continue through Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons, seeing it as an opportunity to model the writing process. Talk out loud about ideas with your son. Help him sift and sort through his ideas. Help him see how to use his key words to write something meaningful. Work with him to add description. Modeling does work! Don't worry about teaching the grammar behind the errors. Instead, work on making his writing sound better. And... don't forget to compliment more than you criticize. I know this is hard, but it will make a huge difference in your writer. Right now, he is probably cringing with every word wondering what he has gotten wrong. Instead, let him know there is not one right way to do this. There are many ways to write, and each writer has his own style. Work through the exercises at a quick pace, trying not to draw the lessons out. If he doesn't have ideas, share some of yours. He is learning from hearing you think through your ideas out loud. Partner with your child as much as needed. Even if you feel the end result is more yours than his, he is learning from the process. Be encouraged that this is time well-spent! It pays dividends as the years pass. You can do this, and over time he will progress.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Rice]

I am so glad to read this thread! My 13yo and 9yo (then 10yo) DSs will be starting MHWL in the fall and I just know that I am going to have to keep many of your suggestions in mind! Write With the Best has been an interesting challenge this year and I know MHWL will be, too, in different ways.

Thanks Tina for posting your question and all the rest of you for sharing your perspectives and advice!
Blessings,

[Tami]

This is great information! Two of my children will be starting MHWL in August and writing is definitely a struggle for them.

I learn so much from all of you! Thank you SO MUCH for sharing the concerns and wisdom; I'm blessed by it!

Tami

[tpschettle]

Thanks so much for sharing everyone!

Carrie, it helps so much to know that it's the PROCESS of writing that's important right now, and that he IS learning something from watching me do it.

Yesterday, I had him narrate a rendering of the portion of the story we're doing and do the brainstorming exercises. Today he transcribed the voice recording and added the brainstorming ideas as he went.

We actually have a nice, workable rough draft with some adverbs and vocabulary words already in it! We basically ignored the KWO, but I'm still quite pleased with the results.

We have a nice student thesaurus coming in a few days that should really help him distinguish the nuances of when to use those words in the SRN. He would always chose words that he recognized, but didn't really fit the use we were looking for. This bothered me so much that we quit using the SRN, but I can see that would help.

Thanks SO, SO much everyone!