Help with placement, again

[LoriJo]

So, we have not used HOD for 5 year. My kids have been in a small Christian school which is closing at the end of this school year. We are having a difficult time with next year as my daughter will be in 8th grade. My son will be in 6th. We do not plan to homeschool for high school at this point, so I have this one transition year for DD to fill in. If I'm going to homeschool one, I will likely homeschool both. I will continue to work part time. All of this is not ideal, but it is what we have to work with right now.

Now, for placement. I have gone over the placement chart, and I am waffling between Resurrection to Reformation and Revival to Revolution. I plan to combine them together. There are several things that they have never done, being in private school. Narration, cursive, diagramming will all be new or mostly new. DD is not as strong of a reader as her younger brother. I love the look of most of RtoR, but they are doing earth science this year. Age wise they could place in Rev to Rev, but it may be a stretch as they have not done school this way before.

I also have some math questions. DS is currently doing 6th grade Math Expressions, and DD is actually working through Algebra at the same pace as the high school freshmen. Both are quite math-brained. What does HOD recommend for Geometry? I am not sure what to do with DD.

Anyone have some words of wisdom for me?

[my3sons]

Hi LoriJo! I am sure this is not what you had planned, but God must have this planned for some important reason! So, I know He will help guide you through this upcoming year. I homeschool our sons and work part-time as well. We are using multiple guides, and I want to encourage you that it is truly possible to enjoy your homeschooling days while working part-time. The key is really placing dc in guides they can truly be successful with. Then, everything flows well because they can really do the things they are expected to do independently, independently. For this reason, I am wondering where each of your dc place individually according to the placement chart? Combining seems like it would be easier, but it isn't always. I'm not saying it wouldn't be in your situation - I just don't want to assume it is until I know more about each of your dc.

I'd take math out of the equation for a moment and focus on LA, as well as on considering how well each child works independently, how well each child follows multi-step directions, and how well the two of them work together. Looking at the the reading and writing aspects of the placement chart is key. When you look at the reading, writing, and grammar sections of the placement chart, where do each of them fall individually? If you get a chance to share your findings, we'll all be glad to chime in here! From what you've shared so far, I'd choose RTR, as long as ds is ready for it.

In Christ,
Julie

[LoriJo]

Thanks for chiming in, Julie. I have read through the placement charts. I am just not sure what to do with them!

I think the reading would be an area where they are actually quite even in ability. They are only 15 months apart in age, even though they are two years apart in grade level in school. Because school is so small (5 children in DS's class), they have really been able to work at their own pace. DS is in a 5th/6th combined classroom, and DD is in a 7th/8th. DS enjoys longer chapter books, DD tolerates them.

Writing is a whole other animal! Neither one of them excels in writing. DS struggles with "writer's block" and shuts down when asked to elaborate and make things more interesting or longer. He likes to rush through things just to get them done. DD likes to write, but I cringe when I look over her writing because the sentences are not always complete. Commas are missing. She has lots of good ideas, but the execution is not quite there yet.

They learned cursive, but do not ever use it at school. I was showing DD the first week of Rev to Rev and she asked if she could type her 10-14 sentences and then tape them in place. Always thinking, that girl.

Grammar is also something that they do OK in school, but not quite up to HOD standards. I asked them if they ever had to diagram sentences, and they looked at me like I had two heads. They can identify parts of speech. DS is a better natural speller than DD.

So, that is my kiddos in a very small nutshell. I have flip-flopped between RTR and RevtoRev. I love the look of either one at this point. We continue to be patient for God's leading as we work our way through this new territory of middle school and look forward to high school.

[my3sons]

Thanks for getting back to me, Lorijo! I think RTR would probably be a good placement, and it is a wonderful HOD guide! The notebooking pages are simply breathtaking. The art gallery is lovely. I don't see any reason why your older dd can't type her written narration and tape it in, as she is old enough to be good at typing. For R & S English, I think starting at R & S English 5 should be alright. HOD suggests that students do 2/3 of it orally or on the markeboard, and only reserve a section or so to actually write out answers for. We have done this and found it works very well. I'd suggest this as well, as dd is not a fan of writing, and it seems to work equally well. For math, you can choose any program.

I wanted to have you double-check the reading level, as the history and science are meant to be read independently by the student in RTR. This is pretty important as otherwise you would be stepping in and reading and/or explaining, and this would make a long school day. I tried to click on the link to view the sample for the hardest history resource in RTR (which is The Mystery of History), but it didn't come up, so I cut and paste a large section of it here instead. You may want to print it and have dd and ds read it, to make sure they can do so well independently. If it is too difficult, CTC would be an option too...

by Linda Lacour Hobar © 2007 Bright Ideas Press
The Wars of the Roses
Lesson 1

Though the title of our lesson might make you wonder, roses don’t really have wars. We all know that. So what
were the “Wars of the Roses”? Well, they were a long series of struggles between two ruling groups of families
in England. We call these ruling groups “houses.” For thirty years, the House of Lancaster fought with the
House of York over who would be the king of England. What does this have to do with roses? It’s really quite
simple. The House of York used a white rose for their royal emblem. The House of Lancaster used a red rose
in their coat of arms. So, the clashes between these two houses became known as the “Wars of the Roses.”1
Before I get into the details of these wars, I’d like to review the history of England with you. (Some of
you have already studied this information in other volumes of The Mystery of History. If you didn’t, don’t
worry. I’ll get you caught up very quickly! Younger Students may opt to skip this review.)

A Brief History of England
For such a small island, England has had a great influence on our world. Its people are a melting pot of
great cultures. Going far back in time, you would find that England was occupied by the amazing people who
built Stonehenge. England was settled later by the Celts (Keltz) — until Julius Caesar brought over the
Romans. The Celts and the Romans lived side by side in England until 476 when the Roman Empire collapsed.
With that collapse, the Romans left England. They left the Celts stranded against the invading tribes of the
Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes. Those were the legendary days when King Arthur and his knights fought
the Saxons to protect their homeland.

But worse than the invading Saxons were the Danish Vikings. During the 700s they pillaged,
plundered, and attacked the coast of England to make parts of it their home. Alfred the Great,a Saxon king,
did his noble part to keep the Vikings in one place. Alfred was a strong Christian king who tried to make peace
with the Danes by telling them about Jesus. For the most part, Alfred was successful. Under his rule, the threat
of the Vikings lessened and the strength of England grew.

England was just coming together as a nation under the Saxons when a powerful man from Normandy,
France, decided to make it his home. That man was William the Conqueror. In 1066, he invaded England at
the famous Battle of Hastings and crowned himself king. With him came a rush of Frenchmen into England
and the idea of feudalism. (Feudalism is a system of rule by kings and landowners.) England was then subject
to a host of kings and queens throughout the period of the Middle Ages. I’m sure you’ve heard of that era.
Some kings and queens were magnificent, like Eleanor of Aquitaine and her son Richard the
Lionhearted. Some were ill tempered and cruel, like King John from whom the tales of Robin Hood are
derived. King John was in fact so evil that the English forced him to sign the Magna Carta to put limits on his
power. It was a concept that shaped history.

Eventually, England and France began to fight each other because the English wanted complete freedom
from the French. This long and fearsome struggle was called the Hundred Years’ War. It included the tragic
death of Joan of Arc, a brave young girl who fought for France and was burned at the stake.

The House of York Takes England
This leads us to our present study of the Wars of the Roses in England, which spanned the years 1455–
1485. Shortly after the Hundred Years’ War, the House of Lancaster was ruling the nation. This house included
a line of three kings named Henry IV, Henry V, and Henry VI. (There were a lot of kings named Henry in
English history. You can keep them straight by the Roman numerals that appear after their names.) It was
Henry VI who had problems that led to the Wars of the Roses. You see, Henry VI was quite feeble and from
time to time showed signs of insanity. He probably suffered from catatonic schizophrenia (skitz oh FREN ee
ah). Because of his condition, Henry VI really wasn’t a good ruler for England.

If Henry’s mental issues weren’t bad enough, Henry’s officials were corrupt and his queen was power
hungry. With all these problems, the country grew ripe for civil war. It was then that a rival family of nobles —
called the House of York — decided to take action. The House of York had hoped for years to gain control of
the nation. In 1455, the first blood was shed over the matter at the small Battle of St. Albans. In that battle, the
Yorkists defeated (or beat) the Lancastrians. Though they won, the House of York failed in making their leader,
the duke of York, the next king. The English Parliament kept Henry VI in place as the king. They made the
duke of York the “Lord Protector” of the nation. It was a sort of compromise. Though he was not made king,
the duke of York had a lot of power. He more or less ran the country during Henry’s episodes of mental illness.
This arrangement might have continued awhile and worked just fine had it not been for the queen.
Henry’s wife, Queen Margaret, was afraid that her son would never inherit the throne of England with the
duke of York having so much control. So, Queen Margaret raised up forces to fight against the duke of York.
In 1460, at the bloody Battle of Wakefield, Queen Margaret got what she wanted. The duke of York was slain
in combat! In prideful victory, Queen Margaret had his head mounted on the town gates of York. (Disgusting,
isn’t it?) She left his head to rot in public as a reminder that the House of Lancaster, not the House of York, was
still on the throne of England. (Remember, I told you that the queen was power hungry!)
The message of the queen, however, wasn’t as clear as she hoped. Completely against her wishes,
Parliament declared that the son of the duke of York would be the next king of England! His name was Edward.
Now, keep in mind, Henry VI wasn’t dead; he was just incompetent. So, to get Henry out of the way, Edward
had him locked up in the Tower of London! The queen fled to Scotland, and Edward was crowned Edward IV,
the new king of England. He was only 19. Edward IV was, of course, of the House of York. After a few more
bloody battles, the House of Lancaster was officially out. But this is still not the end of the story!

The House of Lancaster Retaliates
The House of York had great confidence in their new king, Edward IV, but they greatly underestimated
the House of Lancaster. The earl of Warwick, who wasnicknamed “the Kingmaker,” manipulated the royalty
to put Henry VI back on the throne of England! Unstable and bemused, Henry VI was let out of the Tower of
London to once again be the king. His rescuer, the earl of Warwick, secretly hoped to rule England through
him. Poor Henry. He was being used and didn’t even know it. Still suffering from mental illness, he held on to
the throne for only a few months. But it was long enough for the civil war to start up all over again.
The conflict erupted again in 1471, when Edward IV declared war against Henry. In a confusing battle
in the fog, the Lancastrians accidentally fought their own men! The earl of Warwick, the kingmaker, was killed.
After two gruesome battles, Edward won. He immediately claimed the throne of England again for the House
of York. To prevent Henry VI from ever being king again, Edward threw Henry back into the dark and dreary
dungeon of the Tower of Londonand days later had him executed. The queen, who had by then returned from
Scotland, was spared death. But she was kept in prison. For England, it was a soap opera that seemed to have
no end — because you see, there’s even more to this tangled story!

An Evil Plot
If it weren’t bad enough that the houses of Lancaster and York warred against one another, the House
of York had a battle going on within itself. Edward IV of the House of York had two young sons who were in
line to become king after his death. But Edward also had a brother named Richard, who wished to become the
next king. Can you see the problem? There was serious rivalry in the family.
As the story goes, in 1483, Edward IV died unexpectedly. His oldest son was immediately named king.
But this was not to last long! Richard (who was Edward’s brother and the boys’ uncle) locked up the boy king
and his younger brother in the Tower of London. They were only 12 and 9! Some would say this happened
because Richard was wretched and ruthless. Others would say he was only “protecting” the boys from other
rivals by locking them away. No one knows for sure, but the boys seemed to “disappear” for good, and Richard
was crowned King Richard III of England. As an intriguing side note, most would say that the young princes were never seen or heard from again
and that they were murdered or starved to death in the Tower of London.

HTH! But what do you think?
In Christ,
Julie

[LoriJo]

So, neither one of them had any trouble with the reading level.

Both of them were able to recap the gist of the story without any trouble. I think that they would not have any trouble keeping up with that as a resource.

Thanks so much for all your help. It definitely helps to be able to try to talk it through!

[my3sons]

Well, that is very helpful! Thanks for sharing how the reading went, as well as the oral retelling. This leads me to wondering if RevtoRev would be more of a possibility than I first thought? Let's throw out the consideration of the grammar level (as any level can be used easily), the consideration of the math level for the same reason, the consideration of the cursive (at their ages, they can really choose whether they want to write cursive or print based on their preference, and the bigger deal is that they can easily read other people's cursive), and focus on the reading and writing, as well as the level of independent work with multiple steps that they can follow. So, looking at the resources in RevtoRev, here is an excerpt to read...
From "The Growth of the British Empire"...
http://www.yesterdaysclassics.com/previ ... review.pdf

Here is a link to the first week of plans of RevtoRev. Look at the "I" boxes especially - can they follow all of the directions and do the work independently? How about the writing requirements? How does that fit with each of them? How about the reading level overall for the books? Looking at the "I" box for science, can they follow those directions well and complete the work assigned independently?
http://www.heartofdakota.com/pdf/Rev2Rev-first-week.pdf

Let me know your thoughts about this! Placement takes some real consideration and time, but it is so worth it. I'll help as much as I can!!!
In Christ,
Julie

[LoriJo]

OK, Julie, here we go again. Thanks again for giving me so much of your time as I work through this.

I actually think the following instructions and doing the independent work will not be a huge issue. Because they are in combined age level classrooms, they have learned to work through their work without continual hand holding. I do think my son may try to slide through with as little writing as he can get away with.

I read through the link you provided to "The Growth of the British Empire" and I will admit that one was tough even for me. I then went through the samples of several other books, and they seem to be more like something the kids would be able to wrap their brains around more easily. If "The Growth of the British Empire" is the toughest one, we'll probably be OK.

I don't want to push them so hard that they dread doing the work, but I would like them to be challenged, too.

I really think I can't go wrong either way.

Thanks so much for all your input. I appreciate it very, very much.

[my3sons]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here, LoriJo! I think from all that you have shared that Resurrection to Reformation would be the best fit. I spoke with Carrie about it as well, and she agreed. RTR will help both dc be successful in their homeschooling. It should be challenging enough. For R & S English, Level 5 would be good to do with both. HOD will be scheduling R & S English 7 and 8 throughout the four high school years, as these R & S levels are high school credit worthy, so dd will be just fine doing Level 5 this year, and it will be a solid base for teaching many writing skills as well as diagramming. "Discovering Mathematics" has pretests your dd can take at http://www.singaporemath.com. I'd guess she'd fall in either 8A/8B or 3A/3B (their numbering system is interesting right now; but 3A/3B comes after 8A/8B). Your ds could take the placement tests there as well, probably for 6A/6B or so. Or, you can use your own math if you'd rather. I do feel that RTR is a solid placement now, and I think you would have a wonderful year with it! I know that there is much back and forth when considering placement, but it is in the back and forth that proper placement truly reveals itself. So, thanks for hanging with this! Of course you will make the final decision about this, but I wanted to provide as much clarity and help with this as possible. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[my3sons]

I wanted to add - your dc could do the science from RevtoRev if you would like them to have a physical science year. Your dd could do the advanced for high school credit, if you would like, and your ds could do the standard. Or, they could both do the standard. You would want the RevtoRev guide for the plans for this as they make it completely independent and have great tie-ins to living books with the Inventor Study. Just thought I'd throw that option out there!

In Christ,
Julie