As we move into high school, the design of the guides...

[annaz]

Thanks for the map tips, Carrie! That's good to know, as it saves time in the end, and possibly wear and tear on the cd!

I also wanted to mention that when I suggested the possibility of doing a weekly grid, followed by the normal daily boxes in the guides, I was assuming that the weekly grid format would be primarily for the teacher's resource and not so much for the student to follow. Kind of a place to look ahead through the week, check things off as they are checked, and possibly even use these as a form for recording time spent or other information in regards to record keeping.

Yes...and me as well. Just an overview. Perhaps book names and pages nothing more. An overview!

[Heather4Him]

Carrie,

Just as food for thought, how would the idea of a brief weekly overview in front with the daily pages (w/ boxes ) work?

Thank you for your hard work and dedication.

Mikki

This was my thought exactly! I love both formats for the reasons you mentioned, too, Carrie.

[TrueGRIT]

As I read the posts I hope I have not been misunderstood in my previous post. I love the daily boxes in the guides!
I also was looking more for the weekly overview to be something for teacher alone or mom/student together.
I always liked looking ahead at the beginning of the week, and seeing what I accomplished at the end, but prefer to follow daily.

I would like to see if any supplies are needed at one 'glance' as well. Now I have to spend time going through each day and compiling a list, because we don't keep things around that most households consider ordinary, everyday items. At this point I don't mind doing it, but for HS it would be time consuming when I want to focus on the child and the last part of the education that I can give. Small price to buy for a great program I suppose.

However it goes I know it will be with a lot of thought, and considering what will be best for the majority.
I know HS isn't a 'one size fits all' and that is probably a complicated part in all this. Some are ready for more responsibility sooner, some later, some have circumstances that cause them to be more student involved. (like mine in HS) Some want college and others not at all.

Thank you Carrie for all the thought and heart you put into the guides.

mikki

[Carrie]

Ladies,

I was just thinking that I was hoping my zeal for this topic hasn't caused me to jump in too quickly or to step on anyone's toes. I guess for me this is just a lively discussion where we are all invested in the outcome. I love the dialogue and want to encourage even more of you to post your thoughts. We may or may not all agree, but the talking through things is a wonderful way to really figure out if a format change of some sort would be possible time-wise for me to actually write and implementation -wise for us all to pull-off in the day-to-day.

I had to lay-out my thoughts on what you've shared up to this point to really get us thinking of possibilities as well as pitfalls and barriers. It is also good to think through how the plans need to facilitate our goals and expectations for high school.

As mentioned in this thread already, I agree that the junior and senior years are very different from the freshman and sophomore years in work level and expectations. So, this might mean that a possible format change could be better at that level?

I also keep coming back to what should be done with the key idea at this level? If we go with a weekly grid, then the key idea would be gone which may be alright at this level? If we remain with a daily plan format, to place it for the parent's viewing only doesn't seem quite right, does it? I wonder if I'd actually read the key ideas then if they were just a part of the Appendix? At that point, how does that information benefit the child?

In pondering encouraging independence and scheduling in the students, my hubby and I had also discussed possibly having a listing of what needed to be accomplished for a subject in the Appendix and having the child pencil into the daily plan what to do each day from that listing. This could be done with one subject at first, and later with more than one. However, I wonder at what age a child could truly handle that responsibility, and also how much time it would take out the child's (and parent's) day to manage something like that?

As to both a daily grid and a weekly grid, I'm wondering if many parents would be tempted to just hand their child the weekly grid to work from, rather than wading through the notes in the daily plan? To me it seems like double writing duty on my part, with less gain than I'd like for the extra time I'd have to invest. Truly, right now it is all I can do to get the daily plan finished, so if we'd like a weekly grid it would be in place of the daily plan. I have time to write one or the other, but not both. I spent over 1000 hours writing MTMM. That is just the writing time, not including the many months of researching of books, reading each of them, reading poetry, searching for primary source documents, finding artwork for the notebook, or everything I mapped out prior to formally sitting down and writing each day of plans. So, I honestly can't just add on to what I am already doing and still get it done. In pondering a format change from a daily plan to a weekly grid, my writing time would be shifted some as there would be less writing involved for me. This is why I desire to ponder if people prefer a weekly grid, whether it is wise for me to invest so much additional time writing daily plans or multiple key ideas that may not be what is preferred at the high school level?

So, what are your thoughts? What have been your past experiences either in your own schooling days, your past homeschool days, or in using various types of plan formats?

Blessings,
Carrie

[arstephia]

I don't have a lot of time to post, but I wanted to give a shout-out to the DAILY box format. I have used the weekly grid formats in the past and it was at times overwhelming, easy to lump a bunch together, and I HATE flipping back to other pages to get the information/instructions. The daily box format is what drew me to consider HOD in the first place so I really don't care to see that changed. Also, after many years of using the daily box format, my kids are comfortable and at ease working fairly independently in the upper guides and I don't have to worry they are skipping something. It is easy to check in with them and at a glance interact with what they are doing. The weekly grid does not give me that confidence and I think there is a lot of room for error and confusion. Just my 2c!

We are loving MTMM. Looking forward to the next guide.

[Tansy]

I'm looking ahead to High School...

I love the box's and for my special-Ed child the key idea now is so helpful in getting her focused on what is important in her reading. Although I would love a weekly overview, and so would Sweet Potato she loves to know what is in store. Maybe the solution should be placed in the parents hands. Make up a e-book "form" for the week in review/planner. If the parent chooses to they can print out the form and fill it in for their child or themselves as a school record. Later as the child becomes more able to self-schedule the resources would be there already. So instead of being in an index you just have an extra e-book at a low cost maybe with printable unit overviews.

That way those that really want the weekly planner can have it, it's not lost in an appendix, and you shouldn't have to write 2 guides, but rather 34 paragraphs.

I have used a weekly planner for myself and my child to check off work that is done and as a record of school. This year tho we are just checking off the boxes.

[pjdobro]

If I have to choose one or the other, either the daily format or the weekly format, I would choose to stick to the daily format. I think that is the one that my children will be used to by then, and I think even at that age, they will still need the guidance of daily plans. I can see them possibly getting to the point of starting to keep a weekly planner themselves, but I don't think they will be ready to just follow one at that point without ever having done it before. I would love to see a week at a glance especially noting what things I need to follow up with my student, but that is something that I can probably generate myself in a generic format then fill in specifics week to week. I wouldn't want to trade in the daily plans for a weekly planner.

I do think the key ideas are wonderful to have and add to the learning so I wouldn't want to see them go away. I think especially as teachers if we aren't doing all of the work, we need the key ideas to be able to check our students work. Perhaps the student doesn't have as much need of them at that point, but I think as the teacher, I would be lost without them.

[mamas4bugs]

I have to admit that my oldest son is using another curriculum this year (returning to HOD next year for the high school sequence). We decided to deviate from the HOD cycle, as that way we could use the high school guides as written for all 4 of his high school years (had he stayed in his HOD cycle, we would have been beefing up the last middle school guide, which is completely doable, but just not the route we chose to take). I say this because the curriculum he is using this year uses a weekly grid, with the parent notes in a separate place.

I also have two younger children, one in Preparing and one (with some special needs) in LHFHG. My oldest is almost completely independent, and I am finding that while I work with the younger ones, since the teacher notes aren't right there in my oldest's guide for me to grab and glance at and discuss with him, I am less involved in what he is learning this year. It is taking much more effort on my part to keep up with what he is learning having the teacher notes in a different place. I find that most of the time I am just having him orally narrate to me, as opposed to digging out my own notes. Honestly, there may be key points that he is missing that I am not aware of because I simply don't have the time (or maybe the organizational skills? ) to coordinate information from two separate places.

So again, my vote goes for daily plans, just the same as always. Perhaps 11th grade might be a place to make some kind of a switch, like was mentioned? I'm not sure. I think I'd still have the same issue there, although maybe the amount of written work will then increase to the point that it will be easier to keep in the loop?

OH, and as a sidebar, both my oldest ds and I are missing HOD this year. He says that while he's enjoying his current subject matter, he misses the way HOD has him interact with the text. Personally, I miss the fact that I have never, EVER been displeased with the content of a book in an HOD program. We haven't necessarily loved them all, but I have never run across anything that I was bothered by in the content of an HOD book. I'm having to pre-read some of his books this year with the other curriculum because we have had content issues. Come on, Geography guide! (And thank you very much, Carrie and family!!)

[mamanlait]

I wanted to give a shout-out to the DAILY box format. I have used the weekly grid formats in the past and it was at times overwhelming, easy to lump a bunch together, and I HATE flipping back to other pages to get the information/instructions. The daily box format is what drew me to consider HOD in the first place so I really don't care to see that changed. Also, after many years of using the daily box format, my kids are comfortable and at ease working fairly independently in the upper guides and I don't have to worry they are skipping something. It is easy to check in with them and at a glance interact with what they are doing. The weekly grid does not give me that confidence and I think there is a lot of room for error and confusion.

These were my thoughts, exactly. Please stay with the Daily Format!!! When I mentioned leaving off some of the Key Ideas, I meant for the right side boxes like Math, Language Arts, and Bible Study (the ones that do not change day to day). The left side Key Ideas for Science, History, etc. are incredibly helpful and I see nothing wrong with having the Key Idea available for the student to read if need be. I don't use a guide as a Teacher's Guide but as a guide for us both. I love how streamlined it is. I love that all information is in on a 2 page spread (except for Dictation and Poetry). Please don't change a thing! I would not use a weekly format if it was made available.

[school4princesses]

As mentioned in this thread already, I agree that the junior and senior years are very different from the freshman and sophomore years in work level and expectations. So, this might mean that a possible format change could be better at that level?

I agree with this idea, that the freshman/sophomore years are different from the junior/senior years. That might be a better place to consider a change. However, there would need to be a gradual adjustment rather than a stark change with the last two guides.

I also keep coming back to what should be done with the key idea at this level? If we go with a weekly grid, then the key idea would be gone which may be alright at this level? If we remain with a daily plan format, to place it for the parent's viewing only doesn't seem quite right, does it? I wonder if I'd actually read the key ideas then if they were just a part of the Appendix? At that point, how does that information benefit the child?

As a parent who is doing more than one guide, I would be willing to look in the appendix for the key idea. Perhaps the key ideas could be the "weekly overview" and could be located at the front of the unit for each area. They could simply be numbered one through four to correspond with which day of the unit they pertained to. You could also list any needed supplies for the week on that same front page.

In pondering encouraging independence and scheduling in the students, my hubby and I had also discussed possibly having a listing of what needed to be accomplished for a subject in the Appendix and having the child pencil into the daily plan what to do each day from that listing. This could be done with one subject at first, and later with more than one. However, I wonder at what age a child could truly handle that responsibility, and also how much time it would take out the child's (and parent's) day to manage something like that?
So, what are your thoughts? What have been your past experiences either in your own schooling days, your past homeschool days, or in using various types of plan formats?

Having come to HOD from another curriculum, I have a perspective on this. We did this all the time. On the last day of the unit, we would sit together and I would hand them any new books they needed to add for the next week. They would look at what was expected for the week and list it out on their weekly grid. The first two weeks, I did it for them and talked through my thinking. The next two weeks, they talked it through with me and wrote it out themselves. Then next several weeks they scheduled things themselves and I looked it over and made any necessary changes. By that point, it didn't take them longer than ten minutes to do. They were 12 and 10 at the time. Yes, it took some training, but it is a skill that I think will serve them well.

[jer2911mom]

Thanks for asking for input, Carrie.

It might be helpful to separate into two different lists what the needs for the student will be and what the needs for the parents will be. I, for one, want to have teacher helps in high school. I would like book-specific information and guidance as to what our students are to be gleaning. I see needing more than even the key idea. I want background information and anything else a high school teacher would have. I realize that some subjects will have external TMs and student books, and I will be able to get that help there. But if there are some subjects where I won't have those helps, I want those in my guide. I don't know that even the 2-page spread will be sufficient to give that help. I'm already concerned about CTC - MTMM and working off the key idea only, especially if it is a box where there is a choice of literature and the key idea is not book-specific. Like Ann pointed out, you are much more familiar with the materials, Carrie, than we are. Even if I find time to read through all of them, I feel like I am still going to need help as a teacher in guiding my child through them. So, as a parent who has never taught high school before, I am looking for a lot of teacher helps in the form of book-specific information and answer keys or key points/themes where they make sense. I believe it is important for our children to grow in their independence, but I don't feel like as a teacher that I should be left to find the answers, key ideas, and main themes, etc., on my own. Even teachers in brick and mortar schools have guides for what they do.

I really wonder whether the child needs to be seeing the key idea, even in CTC-MTMM. I'm sure others can comment on that. In some of the samples it seems like it is giving the child the answer and should be covered up. I may be off on that; it was just my perception. Maybe for some subjects it makes sense, but for others, such as a lab experiment, it might be telling them what to expect when that is the goal of their learning?

Regarding key ideas, I don't think you need them for every subject, especially when the material is being covered in a stand-alone product. I don't think the generic ones that are repeated all year long are necessary. You could remove those to save space. Maybe what is needed is just background notes for the teacher behind the two-page spread, in the appendix, or in a separate small book. It could have any answers/main ideas/themes that are needed as well.

If I can be honest, what I like about Sonlight that I would like to see in HOD is the book-specific notes, background information, vocabulary, drawings, questions, etc. I feel like SL gives me more help as the teacher, but HOD is much better for my child. I am in this dilemma to determine if it is going to be more important for me to have help as a teacher or for things to be better suited for my child. HOD would be my choice if I felt like I was going to have the information I need as a teacher to support my child's education. So, for high school, that is one of my top priorities. I get jittery at the thought of the key idea going away, when I feel like I need even more than that. With my child reading things independently, I'm really going to need support to stay on top of what they are doing and what they are supposed to be learning. I envision some sort of parental supplement or section or notes separate from what my student will be looking at each day, even if it is just on different pages in the same book. Now if we are using an external literature guide, for example, that help could be found there and shouldn't be duplicated in the HOD guide. But if we are just reading separate history books with no guides, for example, I want teacher helps with those. I realize your time is limited and you can only do so much, but any time you can put toward this area would be much appreciated.

Thanks for listening,
Kathy

[bethelmommy]

Ladies,

As we move into writing formal high school level guides, I have been endlessly pondering what format the guide should take at this level. After exploring options for almost 6 months now, I had pretty much decided to continue on with the format in which the guides are currently written for many reasons. A few are that I love the daily plan and have truly enjoyed seeing my kiddos bloom with the independence and the taking ownership of their own learning that the design of the guide has fostered in them. As a planner, I have been thrilled to have all instructions needed for each area easily accessible in the box where the assignment is given. I have enjoyed having the box format for a place to note any content warnings and issues directly by the readings as they are assigned. I like seeing the boxes as I think through the balance in a day and feel they make sure I do not overload the child with too much. The key idea in each box is really good for me to keep my pulse on what the child is doing in every subject every day. The daily plan forces me not to skip over things and to teach only what is meant to be done within a day each day. It keeps me from jumping around, going ahead, or slipping back. It keeps me steadily moving forward. Yet, I don't feel confined to be on Day 1 on Monday.

Yet, as I'm sketching out the guide's plans, I wonder whether it would be wise to make a move to a weekly grid of some sort at this point in time? I have used weekly grids in the past, with my oldest son who did Sonlight for multiple years, so I am familiar with the pitfalls of the weekly grid type of plan. I worry that if I planned in a weekly grid, students would skip around and lump days of a subject together and leave other subjects to do in a clump at week's end. I am concerned that a weekly grid would make it really easy to skip important things in the grid and that the unity or ties among various "boxes" or assignments would be lost. I fear that both child and teacher would be prone to skip accompanying notes, as they would be on a different page. This would quickly turn the plans into a reading list only type of plan. I fear that without the key idea, I could feel lost as to what is being covered where. I wonder if I would feel pushed to complete a week within a week. These are all things that happened to me in the past when I used a weekly grid format.

Blessings,
Carrie

My kids are still young, but having used 3 years of SL and now having used HOD this past year, I agree with all of your well thought out points above regarding the two formats. I do think the daily format is probably the best option. Including a brief checklist of some sort might be nice, but not at the expense of the daily plans. I am sure there are other opportunities for increasing student planning/independence that can be be built into specific boxes of the guide as you have done so far.

I do appreciate the key idea at this point, but not having older kids, I can't say with certainty how I will feel as they get older. I imagine many find it helpful and those who don't could maybe choose to cover it up so their kids don't see it ahead of time. I can't even begin to express how appreciative I am of all the work you put into these guides. We are so fortunate to get to use HOD for all of our homeschool years.

[Carrie]

I'm thoroughly enjoying reading and pondering this topic with all of you! As we continue on with our discussion, I will share that one our primary goals is to enable parents to feel like they can homeschool through high school. I realize the high school years are often a time when many families feel they are no longer up to the challenge that homeschooling a high school aged student brings.

It can be so intimidating to plan high school level material, keep a transcript, count credits, write course descriptions, and make sure your child has what is needed in life preparation (not to mention preparing for college). There are many ways to approach homeschooling a high school child, and HOD is just one way.

As we look at other companies who have gone before us, we desire to take a different path from what is already offered. While I hesitate to mention much in the way of comparison to other companies, since the Sonlight teacher's notes where mentioned earlier in the thread as one ideal, I will share that from our years with Sonlight I found the teacher's notes to include mainly comprehension level questions and word definitions and to be quite opinionated as to the views of the author in the summaries and notes. This meant that I was having to add my own higher level thinking questions and sift through quite a bit of information, with which I often didn't agree, to decide what to share with my child. We desire to stay away from both of those scenarios in our HOD guides as much as possible. Our goals focus on turning children toward God's Word or back toward a variety of textual sources in search of answers. We desire for the kiddos to do the sifting and sorting through the information rather than having the parent be the purveyor of information. In philosophy, we seek a more Charlotte Mason style education, with more thinking and discussing and fewer prescribed answers. I do realize that there is a time for "set" answers and for checking comprehension, and we do both in our guides. However, I also believe that the best preparation for engaging in meaningful dialogue with a child is to spend time with the materials the child is using rather than spending time reading my summaries of the material. With a Charlotte Mason style education of fewer books of a higher quality, it is more manageable to keep on top of a child's readings.

I know not all parents have time to read their kiddos books, yet it is surprising how much you can pick up just through listening to your kiddos' oral narrations, reading their written narrations, reading your kiddos' notebook entries, talking through the questions in the guide about primary source documents or poetry or Bible passages, etc. The guides from CTC - MTMM have much information contained within the teaching in the boxes that goes far beyond the key idea. Our goal at those levels is to teach you how to facilitate learning and to guide your child in learning to think. This is process that goes beyond one right answer and is one you as the parent will discover as you move through our middle guides.

I can understand the concern that comes from thinking ahead to high school without first having the experience of doing CTC, RTR, Rev2Rev, and MTMM under one's belt. It probably seems like a huge leap and one for which both parent and child may never be prepared. I just want to assure each of you that the view looks quite different now that I have an actual junior in high school and have another child doing MTMM this year who is on the verge of high school. I remember feeling panicked about middle school and high school too, and I feel much more confident now. The progression of learning through the HOD guides makes all the difference in my perception.

As we move toward high school with the stepping stones from CTC through MTMM in place, I can now see a logical progression emerging that takes much of the fear away. So, be encouraged that the methods behind the guides are sound, it is just the format that I am pondering. So, what are your continued thoughts?

Blessings,
Carrie

[annaz]

I am seeing that at this level, the daily boxes may not all fit in a two page spread. Is that an issue?

It certainly is double writing on your part to do both the daily boxes and the grid. Would I want it? Well, um...Yes! But I also realize that the feasiblity of the workload for you to do this in addition to an added price is probably not optimal. But you did ask. And I would love both. But on to being more realistic! I for one, despise the moving from page to page on a daily basis if it's in grid form. Grid on one page, 3 pages after, hopping back and forth. Not only is it a pain, but it's wear and tear on the guide. How well would this work, having handle pages in this way for other kids coming up to this guide? I only like grids for overviews. To see the week in a nutshell. But the page turning. Yuck!

I know for me, that I would need moreso the Key Ideas at this level to keep my kid on track, because the information gets more difficult, the reading gets longer and mom will need the info, otherwise we're running blind. Remember that you've read all these books and we have not, so we're at a disadvantage here unless we can get that time in. I have yet been able to do this. Granted, some key ideas are not needed except for main books that need narration, summaries, written or verbal or anything mom has to check and chat with. Obviously not the 3R's, Art, poetry, etc. On the other hand, putting them into an Appendix is a great idea, especially if you're short on page space, and the kids don't see them so easily. And I wholeheartedly agree that particular book info is better even than Key Ideas. We hire out because sometimes us Moms are not good at open-ended information. But specific book information, only where it's needed. I agree with the pp on this.

Why Carrie, I just can't believe that you wouldn't have time to do a grid and boxes. LOL. Frankly I can't believe you already do what you do.

[Tiffini]

I'll weigh in with a few thoughts. First, thanks for even asking, Carrie. I know how seriously you take this and it means SO much to me and my family! I have loved talking high school with you at the conventions and seeing your passionate heart about this subject. I have complete confidence in trusting our high school years to HOD!

This is our 5th year with HOD. We began with Bigger Hearts and are currently using Rev2Rev with two 7th graders and a 9th grader. I LOVE the format that you already use, Carrie. It is one of the big draws to HOD for so many people. There is NOTHING else out there like it. Doesn't the saying go: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! For me, it is the content that is more important for high school level, not going to a weekly grid or something similar. I think someone else mentioned (was it you, Carrie?) that kids in public HS aren't given weekly assignments and then told to figure out the schedule themselves. I think we are always in a rush as homeschooler to start college before HS ends. This is the only time they have and I'm not in a huge rush to make my high schoolers into college students. I think the daily format in HOD is still excellent preparation for dividing time into daily chunks to make real progress.

I do have a few thoughts, though, based on using HOD with a high schooler for the first time this year. We have had to beef up Rev2Rev to count for HS credit. To do that, I have assigned various books, videos, narrations, etc., to my high schooler on a weekly basis and allowed her to decide how to complete those assignments each week. This has taught her time management and how to divide workload appropriately. But the bulk of her work is still in the daily HOD format which works wonderfully! So, to me, it is the best of both worlds this way.

So...would it be possible to do high school HOD years in a similar manner? To do the bulk of the schooling with the daily format as always. Then, choose a subject or two - (ex. Govt. readings, Lit 3x/week, Grammar 3x/wk) - and give the weekly assignment on Day 1 - and allow the student to divide the work as they choose for the week? This might not be feasible or make any sense, but just thinking through this.

Also, to save space on the boxes since you will need more space for the high school subjects - would it be possible to not even include the Math, LA and any other repetitive subject as a large box on the page, but just as a small reminder line or small box each day? Certainly, I don't need the key idea in those subject areas daily, which would save space.

Also, I really like your point, Carrie, about spending the time with the books themselves rather than reading through voluminous teacher notes such as are included in SL guides. I have 5 children, ages 15 down to age 4, and some with challenging issues - so it's not like I have much free time. I just make it a priority in my time to read through the history, science, Signers, and inventor reading each week for the week coming up. This really doesn't take long at all (maybe an hour to an hour and a half weekly) since the daily readings are not long and I'm not doing the assignments with the readings. And I figure when the youngers come up through that guide, I won't need to read the books beforehand a second time! This is an invaluable investment of my time to be able to have a working knowledge to discuss with the kids and keep up on what they are learning. Plus, I consider this "me" time, too, since I love to read and I love to learn and I rarely have time to do any other reading! So, for me, lots of teaching notes would not be necessary and I know you certainly do not have time to do that. The other resources I can skim quickly enough while discussing with the kids.

I truly can't WAIT to see what you come up with next, Carrie! I'm praying for you as you make these decisions.