Math...need help! (Carrie?)

[mom2gr8kidz]

Hello,

I come asking for advice and I don't even know quite how to word my question. My 4th grade, 9 year old daughter has struggled in math for years. Just a little background...she attended 1st and 2nd grade in p.s. Last year we used MUS Alpha. This year, our first with HOD, we went ahead and switched to Singapore. She is doing 1B, and we are in week 7. I don't even know how to put my finger on what is going on with her, but I come away after every lesson feeling like she lacks any kind of number sense or number awareness. She can't seem to memorize her math facts which puts her at a definite disadvantage. I have given her various ways to solve very simple problems....not all ways at once...but showing her at different times ways she could work to get to an answer. She sits with extremely simple problems before her and looks absolutely bewildered. Today for instance, she is supposed to be adding 3 numbers like 2+3+4. I would have to tell her almost every time to add two numbers and then the 3rd. She told me no less than 4 times that 4+5=8. I think that her issues are beyond me. The deal is I don't even know the first step to take. Should I get her tested to see if she has an LD? If so, where? Should I just take her to a place that could help her specifically with math? I am just looking for some ideas on how to help her and would appreciate any advice.

Thanks so much!

[MomtoJGJE]

I would get her some manipulatives to work with... Have her set out the problem using the manipulatives and then add them or count them.

[mom2gr8kidz]

Thanks for your reply, Lora Beth! I need to provide a little more information. I always do the HOD directed lesson introductions....and usually we do them numerous times until I think she totally is getting it. Always in front of her for her use is a number line and manipulatives. (We use the ones from MUS, just the units) Yesterday I was encouraging the use of her number line. She would add two of the three numbers on her own and then I would attempt to have her add the third number to the sum of the other two by counting up starting at one on the number line. She would always go one past the number she was adding or one less than the number she was adding while counting on the number line. (ex. she had added 2+3=5 and needed to add 4 more, she would either stop at the 3 thus giving the answer as 8.....or stop at the 5, thus giving the answer as 10.) This continued throughout the lesson over and over. My 24 year old daughter happened to be over and she tried working with her too. Day after day of these types of things is why I am thinking that there might be a chance of there being something else wrong. It is difficult to see her struggle on a daily basis with her math. She does love the Singapore books, though.

Thanks!

[MomtoJGJE]

I understand the frustration. I'm not even checking my dd's math from yesterday and am just going to let DH go over it with her again today.

FWIW, So far none of my children understand how to use a number line. They do way better using little blocks or something. Like in your example of 2+3+4... they set out two blocks in one spot, 3 blocks in another, and 4 blocks in another. Squish two together, so have 5 in one spot and 4 in another, and then count them all. They do better doing it that way.

It might just be that her brain doesn't do numbers. My kids are all fairly mathy and still struggle with some things for a while. My 3rd is not a number person, so she has to make sentences with it to make sense... way more of a words person. So in your example, when she gets to doing that, I'll probably start her with examples in pre-algebra. So I'd write it like 2+3+4... then I'd write (2+3) +4. Then we'd say the words and sentences something like "Two kids gave three more kids a huge hug, then four more wanted to join in and it made a big group hug of how many people?!"

[psreit]

Similar to the pp, I give my dd objects to count. I think she could use a number line, but having objects to count works better. She can 'see' it that way. My dd is 9 and has similar problems as your dd. There are just certain things she is having a hard time processing. She is third grade. She has not yet added 3 numbers. She can do simple addition in her head, but we still use objects for counting for subtraction. She is being introduced to tens and ones, but has problems putting several numbers between 1 and 99 in order. I think she looks at the second digit. My evaluator recommended repetition, although she does not typically recommend curriculum that has several pages full of problems. I am using a math curriculum that does just that. If there is a page full of addition problems, I will give her half to do. If she gets them all right or maybe one or two wrong, I will cross out the other half. She is working in a grade 1 series, but so far it is working well. Try counting with the blocks or other objects. I'm not sure how many problems you do a day, but maybe you could give some incentive by having extra problems. Tell her that if she gets so many right, she doesn't have to do the rest. It does help with my dd. She is more careful with her counting. HTH

[Tracee]

I agree with what everyone has said, give her manipulatives and allow her to use those. We use the MUS blocks, paper clips, cereal, candy . Whatever strikes my fancy at the time. . I did show ds the number line and how to use it, but the manipulatives worked better. My ds used manipulatives for 1A, 1B, and sometimes in 2A. In school I was taught a trick of how to count on the numbers. For example, 3 has three points that come out. I think there is now a math program that utilizes the technique called touch math. You can look on their website to get the idea. You don't need to purchase the program. My ds is severely dyslexic and has some recall issues. I tried to teach him "Touch Math", but he prefers to use manipulatives when needed.

Also, there is an LD called dyscalculia, but I don't think getting a diagnosis is going to help in her day to day learning. I would keep on doing what you are doing. Give her as much help, repetition or practice as she needs. Try to include all the senses when teaching her a new concept. For example, a song from MUS, a visual/picture representation from Singapore and a kinesthetic example through manipulatives. A diagnosis will be helpful if she has to take any standardized tests or needs classroom accommodations.

I hope that helps, (((((((HUGS)))))) It takes tons of patience. I know.
Tracy

[mom2gr8kidz]

Ladies,

Thanks so much for your ideas, thoughts and suggestions. It definitely gives me some things to think through, but just knowing that I am not alone in this....well, it just helps! I am thankful for the reminder about the touch math because dd was actually taught that method either in first or second grade when she was in ps. We are going to plug along and see if we can't somehow break through whatever the issue is that is causing her problems.

Thanks again!

[my3sons]

Singapore Math is considered a year advanced. Did she take the Singapore Placement test and place in 1B? If not, I think I'd back up and start with 1A, using the hands-on plans in Beyond's daily plans each day. Has she done 1A? If not, it may be that she just needs some work with 1A concepts before doing 1B concepts. The hands-on math plans in Beyond are wonderful, and they use manipulatives in the exact way being suggested here by the ladies. I want to encourage you that our sons had their math facts memorized about a year later with Singapore's methods than with other math programs, but that then they REALLY knew them because they had such a number sense to back them up. Singapore does a super job of teaching the "why" behind the "how," and it really makes a difference in their mental math capabilities in the long run. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[Carrie]

Susan,

The ladies have done a great job of helping you talk through possible ways to guide your daughter. I'll just pop-in to share that one thing that will have a definite impact on a child's progression of learning math skills is the amount of switching among methodologies and math programs that has taken place. Even very strong math students will have difficulties the more switching that takes place.

With a couple of years of public school math, then a year of MUS, and now a switch to Singapore there will definitely be some adjustments along the way (and some backtracking each time a switch is made). I don't share this to make you feel sad about the switching (I did MUCH more switching than this with my oldest son). But rather, I share this to let you know that switching does definitely lead to some confusion for the child on how to do certain math processes. This confusion will lessen over time, but I'd make it a goal not to do any more switching if possible and just stay the course with where you are now.

All math programs will have their bumps in the road. If you have decided to make the program work as best you can, you will head over the bumps and recover. Of course, if the math program is causing daily tears and frustration for an extended period of time, then it is wise to consider a switch. Otherwise though, a decision to stay the course can be helpful.

Next, it is possible that your daughter could have some learning delays or challenges in math that may show up on some math testing by a specialist. However, even if this is true, often the remedy is the same. Many of the things already found in our hands-on activities will be the solution. Many of the the other helps the ladies are mentioning here will also be solutions. So, at this point, I probably wouldn't rush toward math testing.

Another thing to weigh is whether your daughter is correctly placed in Singapore. It may be wise to go back to 1A and do the hands-on activities in Beyond along with it, and then come back to 1B. You could move more quickly through what she already knows in 1A, just make sure to use manipulatives as suggested in the Beyond lessons to help her "see" each concept. Sometimes backtracking now is easier than trying to do it later.

I would also make sure to sit right by her and talk her through each step of each math problem as she's doing it. Help her say what she's doing out loud and show her with manipulatives as she does it. Having the child say what he/she is doing as he/she does it takes away the deer-in-the-headlights look. It forces them to concentrate and participate. You can say the steps out loud with her to help.

One last thing that is very helpful for kiddos is to learn to skip count. This helps with multiplication and division later. So, when she begins doing multiplication, use the Skip Count Kids (or something like it) to learn to count by 2's, then 3's, then 4's, etc. Do just one song at a time. When she's learning addition facts, just the flashcards work well. Do all the 0's first, then all the 1's, then all the 2's and so on. This way it is not so overwhelming to learn the facts, as you only have one set of cards to learn at a time. Practicing one set of cards at a time each day will only add a minute or two to your math time. You may wish to start with the 0's this week. Once she has those down, move on to the 1's.

Blessings,
Carrie

[mom2gr8kidz]

Hello,

I am surely thankful for all the helps and suggestions that I have received here on this board. The encouragement alone has helped give me a new perspective. My daughter and I are taking it slow and making sure she understands what she is doing. We have been doing the math portion in Beyond as written...and it really helps her. I do usually have her talk it through, but I will maybe enforce this even more by having her teach it back to me. I find it rather interesting that as we have just entered the multiplication part of Singapore 1B....that it actually seems to be helping her addition. Hopefully by employing the great suggestions I have received we will get her through and the hard math times will become a distant memory!

Carrie, I just want to go ahead and say thank you for all you do and have done. My girls love HOD and I do too!

Blessings!

[netpea]

I find it rather interesting that as we have just entered the multiplication part of Singapore 1B....that it actually seems to be helping her addition.

I experienced that with my oldest too. He never cemented those addition facts but he learned them once he started multiplying.