A general math question

[annaz]

After reading over the thread now "Struggling to get everything done" Carrie mentioned dropping math to 30 minutes.

This intrigues me. In fact this excites me to no end! I tried several math programs and never understood Singapore (and we now know why dd is math challenged ) so we've used BJU....which was way too time-consuming and we now use CLE which I love. No more Mom teaching weird verbage and the directions as well are in the worktext. Which brings me to my question.

How in the world do you do math for 30minutes? I spend maybe 3-5 minutes going over the lesson....we do our drill (dd loves it! Go figure!), we do our flash cards, both of which together take 5 minutes, dd does the oodles of pages (issue here) and then we correct mistakes. At least an hour! Even if I crossed out some review problems, I can't imagine the quick teaching overview, the lessons, the corrections, all done in 30 minutes.

So my feeble little mind wants to know how this is done without doing math at half pace?

[MomtoJGJE]

Well, I can tell you how our math day looks...but we use Singapore. We don't do drills or flash cards or anything like that. We spend 5 minutes explaining what's going on and working problems in the textbook, then 5 minutes doing workbook problems. Then I'll look over it and circle the ones she got wrong, then we'll look over them together if there are any and fix whatever mistake she's made using manipulatives. So we do math in about 15 minutes total.

[LynnH]

We use CLE also. My ds is now on level 600 so no more flashcards or drills so that helps. I take maybe 2-3 minutes to teach the lesson and off he goes. Now I do cross out problems. If I know he has a concept well in hand then I will only make him do 1/3 problems or 2/4. If something is a fairly new concept he does all of the problems. On most days he does get done in 30-35 minutes. If lessons take longer it is usually because he isn't focusing like he should. The exception is on days that focus on long division. It can take him a long time to do those problems, but some of it is an attitude issue that we are working on.

[Heart_Mom]

One way to stick to 30 minutes is to be willing to do less than a whole lesson in a day. Start working on a lesson, and stop after 30 minutes. The next day, pick right back up where you left off. This strategy works very well with my son for spelling (we're using a non-HOD spelling program). He knows that he needs to focus for 15 minutes, then we're done. It's much less daunting for him this way, and we make good progress.

HTH!

[ninipelley]

We switched from Singapore to Math u See & my dd loves it. We went from crying everyday in math to her watching a 5-7 min video once a week & then doing a worksheet daily. I help her if she gets stuck. Or I just go over her finished work & help her understand if she misses something. Usually takes us about 15 minutes or 20.

[annaz]

To do teaching, corrections, review and new concepts...that's enough for an 11-year old?????

[Molly]

Is your daughter doing the worksheets on her own or are you sitting there guiding her? I know that with my son, I will still be sitting with him when he is that age and guiding him through the questions, being there on hand if he needs help, but I also don't think I will be getting him to do similiar problems over and over again. I also think I will be making sure that what we are working on, he can use it in real life situations as I know that is going to help him cement it. He does need alot of repetition but it can be repeated to him in different formats to help him get the concept.

I guess what I'm trying to say is doing oodles of math worksheets actually helping her cement the math or not? If not, I would look at ways to cement it but in a shorter time because even at 10 almost 11 my oldest daughter who is a very independent, math orientated child would not happily do an hour of math a day, nor would I expect as she is only young. Perhaps some living math books could help. I know it's not true to the title of living math books, but I am using Life of Fred fractions with my oldest and she is not struggling at all with them. That is in addition with a couple of other math resources, so she is still doing some worksheets.

I truely believe that math is really really important, but I also don't think it need to be boring, as it is such an important part of everyday life and I love teaching the children how to use it in real life.

[annaz]

Yes, I am there with her, keeping an eye on it. I think I will cross out some problems, except new concepts. They have great review. They review many concepts....it's not just a review of the previous lesson, they're all a few different concepts, so I like it. It is taking longer, because we've started long division and she doesn't quite get it. She LOVES speed drills, so maybe we'll do one or the other; one day speed drills, one day flash cards. I do see the fruit of that or maybe I'll let her choose either or. I'll see if I can pare the lessons down to half. But I can't imagine doing math for 10-15 minutes ; understandable for under 9. That's just not enough for this age level. 30 minutes...yes. Perhaps with the pared down lessons, we won't have as many corrections as well. We usually go over those together. Maybe we'll do mental math portions orally? But if they review the same concept on day 1 and day 2, we'll just do either or, as long as we get it in that week. I know I just have to get a handle on time. I just always have done ALL the lesson in math. We've switched to CLE LA as well, but that's going good. We do some orally and some written and don't have time issues.

[countrymom]

It sounds like you are starting to get a good plan formulated for your dd. It may seem a little uncomfortable to you right now, but give it a shot and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Perhaps with the pared down lessons, we won't have as many corrections as well.

Agreed! Once our dc get a concept, pages of practice are not necessary and do lead to more errors as our dc get tired, bored, start to lose attention to detail, etc. I do agree that 30 minutes tops would be about right for an 11 year old. I share this last statement not to convince you to change methods, but just to show that mastery of the concept is the key and our dc can succeed without us tiring them (and mom) out. We are using Singapore and I might be considered a "math renegade" by some, but we have not used a single flash card or drill to date and my ds is sailing through the first lengthy introduction to multiplication and division without any difficulties. He understands the concepts and can work the problems, even though he does not have all of his addition facts learned yet (but is well on his way). Now that we are in multiplication he has figured out on his own how to group the numbers for simple addition to come up with his answer. Good luck with your new plan. I think you are on the right track!

[Carrie]

Annaz,

This is a good question and one to which you've already received some great responses. I'll just pop-in to share that when I am talking about math being 30 min. I do mean just going over the textbook examples and doing the lesson in Singapore math. We also do not do flashcards or do daily drills on previous concepts. We simply go over the Singapore lesson in the textbook, and then do the workbook problems. I stay with my kiddos for math time to keep it moving along and help them over any rough spots. With Singapore math, it is truly possible to keep math to this reasonable time frame (as long as we're not adding, adding, adding to math time by adding in all sorts of supplemental books).

As far as programs like Rod and Staff, CLE, BJU, ABeka, and Saxon go... while they are solid math programs, the sheer number of problems in each assignment will double your math time when compared to Singapore. To me, this is part of the beauty of Singapore math in that I can still do a good job of teaching math and not have it rule my day or my children's day. Plus, it does a wonderful job of teaching higher level thinking and mental math. I could go on about the benefits of Singapore math but that is not the purpose of this thread. So, instead, I'll share that with my 4 boys if I used a math program that took 50 min. to an hour each day, I would soon be at almost 4 hours of math alone each school day! I share this to illustrate how "out-of-balance" it is for math to take that much time in our day. Otherwise, I could truly just be teaching math all day and get nothing else done!

Even though you have one child instead of four, the premise is still the same. Ask yourself, "How much time is math currently taking in our school day when compared to other subjects?" While math is important, and does garner more of our kiddos' time as they get older, it still needs to be kept in balance with the rest of their day.

I will share that on the other hand, I have an older sister who uses ABeka in the younger years and Saxon as her kiddos get older. Her math time each day for each child can range anywhere from 45 min. to almost 2 hours. In watching this scenario at her house for years, I couldn't help but feel that math seemed out of balance with the rest of the day. Her kiddos are often still doing math at night with their dad after having done it with her in the A.M. Each family has to choose its own path in this area, and you may be fine with your math time running longer. But in light of your recent thread, I do think it is a good idea to take a look at which non-HOD areas may be making it seem like your HOD day goes long! The ladies have shared some great ideas on how to make your current math program fit into a more reasonable time frame which will hopefully help.

Blessings,
Carrie

[MomtoJGJE]

You said that for an 11 year old 15-20 minutes of math isn't enough.... that you could see 30 minutes being reasonable.

I'm good at math. I went to public school. At 11 I was in 5th grade, in 5th grade my math class was 50 minutes from the time the bell rang to start class to when the bell rang to end class and go. The first 5 minutes were us talking while the teacher talked to the teacher next door... every single day. Another 5 minutes to get our books and homework out and turn homework in. Then she had to get us all on the right page for our lesson as well as getting everyone to stop talking, waiting for people to sharpen pencils, etc... another 5 minutes. So before we even started class we were down to 35 minutes. Then she explained the lesson, generally had to go through it a bunch because of people not listening or not getting it... so another 15 minutes before we even started to actually work. Then we did our work, all odd problems or all even problems depending on the day (even days were even problems odd days were odd problems). We worked until 5 minutes before the bell rang. I normally got done with a 5 minutes extra, so I got to read for 10 minutes. So basically, I got the lesson the first time she explained it (didn't have to listen more than 5 minutes of the 15 minutes) and got done with my work in 10 minutes max. So at 11, getting 100 on every test plus any extra credit given, I did about 15 minutes worth of math a day.

I remember all this because it was the first time I remember thinking that school was a great time waster. That it took 15 minutes to do a class that was scheduled for 50 minutes. All through school from that time on our classes were 50 minutes long. It took a LOT of time to teach 30 students. It doesn't take that much time to teach one student.

[annaz]

You said that for an 11 year old 15-20 minutes of math isn't enough.... that you could see 30 minutes being reasonable.

I'm good at math.

No, I don't think 15 min is enough , if you add in teaching and corrections and a bit of review concepts and the lesson concept itself. 30 minutes I could see because that extra 15 minutes would be all three of those, the latter 15 minutes being the concept itself, giving kids time to think. 30 minutes I find completely reasonable. I'm not particularily great at math...basic concepts sure...nothing like Algebra. I'll deal with that when we come to it . BJU taught some concepts "their" way and drove me batty and I dumped it. Not that it wasn't good, just overkill in teaching and time and not enough review, which is why I love CLE. We're all different, that's why we NEED the review. DD LOVES speed drills and she got a bit of upset because today I told her we wouldn't be doing those every day. (sigh).

However, Carrie is right...again. MOST of my time issues are self-inflicted! Gosh, I hate that word, LOL. We don't add anything extra, but some of the "own programs" we do use our own, simply because it fits both of us better. R&S dd retained zero, so I chose something that has the same info, just a different way.

I'd love to choose Singapore. I've tried it and didn't understand it to save my life. I needed a TM, just to explain concepts on their level. I love the quickness of R&S, but doing it orally there was no retention at all. DD does better by seeing and doing, but not just one or the other. She needs to see it as a whole. So we go more of a workbook route.

But I am excited to know that 30 minutes should be enough! I don't have to do all the concepts. It's amazing that I would know this in grammar and other areas, but not in math. So we'll try it and see where she's at in a few months of having more balace.