serious character help

[ninipelley]

We are taking the next week or so off for some character training. Back to the basics are necessary here. I can admit I haven't been as consistent as necessary. That being said, I have some great ideas in place, but need prayer to hold myself accountable. It is really hard to have the energy for this life.
this household cannot go on like this anymore. Disrespect, sibling fighting, self-control, disobedience- everything is chaos here. I can't go to the bathroom without someone getting into something or hurting one or breaking something. I have been researching this "reproof" method which I love, but I really need help with some consequences that will work. I have been making a chart of scriptures to refer to in teaching them during the sin issue/behavior, but it's the consequence part....help ladies. So we can continue school this year.
I have a dd 8 in Bigger, ds 6.5 in Little, 3yr & 2 yr old .

[Mom2Monkeys]

I've been in your shoes and am praying for you. Guess I could say I'm still in your shoes! I need help myself to have some consistent vernacular, phrases, clear explanations of what is expected and what isn't allowed, etc something that set the standards clearly with words that my kids could grasp better than just telling them to obey, of have self control, or being kind. If you look in my sig you'll see a link to what I've found to be a tremendous blessing for this in our home. And if you go to my blog you'll see my posts about how we use it and such (plus my upcoming giveaway for it and some other goodies!). It's been amazing. Super helpful even out of the house. Im on my phone so I can't really link to exact posts, but of you click that little world icon to the right of this post you'll go to my blog and can click the link in the most read pots list for "raising virtuous kids".

[raceNzanesmom]

Ill be praying. It IS hard work, but so worth it in the end.

[MelInKansas]

I completely understand how you feel! It really seems like there are definitely days when I turn around, walk into the kitchen to put the milk away, or whatever and every time a fight breaks out, or someone is doing something they know very well they are not supposed to be doing. It's good for you to take this time and really get yourself and the children focussed on God's word and trying to maintain some discipline and order. I should probably do that too!

I'm not creative when it comes to discipline. So I don't have ideas for you there. Things fall into two categories, defiance/disobedience/ignoring commands and unloving behavior toward others. The first is spanking, the second is if you can't resolve it yourself in a godly manner I will solve it for you. And you don't like my solution...

I use time out regularly too when things are heated up and we all need a break. Let's all sit down and think about this for a minute, pray, try to think about what is going wrong in this situation. I totally need that in heated/emotional situations in order to allow the Holy Spirit and wisdom to take over my own selfishness.

Like I said, not very creative. I guess when I am called upon to resolve their conflicts for them I have to think up the idea(s) but most often it is losing the toy/thing they were fighting over, my kids are still young.

[Heidi in AK]

praying for you, Nini. I had started a thread very similar to this one just last Thursday ("OT-update, etc."). Praying that indeed the Lord's Word does not return void.

[Mom2Monkeys]

Oh! There's a book called Creative Correction that's realllllly good for those consequences.

[lharris]

Hello Ladies,
I certainly feel your pain. I was not homeschooling when my oldest two were tiny. So it looks like you have an older dau with younger son (8 vs 6.5) then you have toddlers. My first thougth is they are still very little. I agree with the Kansas poster that for outright very bad behavior a short spanking (and I"m adding by your open hand on their bottom) should be sufficient. Keep your temper in check, the spanking should be a short little swat to let the little guys know they have crossed the line. Then use time out whenever it is effective as a substitue. I say "hand" because never have something in your hand when you have to do a swat. That conjures up scary images for the children, so that is essential. The fact that mom is angry is scary enough. You don't wish for the children to be scared, but only to realize they have angered you and rightly so, you will just need to be in control of your own temper. Then, once you feel they have had the silence (quiet) to contemplate, for me its usually 20 minutes later, make sure you initiate the hugs. Don't expect the child to feel well enough about himself to come to you. You initiate the making up time always, then they usually cry and say "Im sorry" Also, make sure you child feels unconditional love from you. All these little things are important. We want to make sure we reflect our Holy Father's love in that,
..... parent sets the boundary (always in love --- don't look at rule breaking as much as meanness, attitude, or talking back.
...... parent initiates hugs (when a discipline is carried out) I personally only believe in short little swat -- rather than "grounding." I don't think kids understand a grounding and its not as effective and it just lingers a sense that mom is mad.
..... parent shows unconditional love - speaks in love-- never ever and never ever talk badly about the child's behavior to a friend or even dad in front of the child, especially to friends or acquaintainces. You don't want the child to overhear how frustrated you are. He'll feel you rather wished he/she was someone else.
.... then when you try to illustrate God love, or bring God into the conversation, the child will have experienced full forgiveness and unconditional love from you! Remember our God initiated Love, Forgiveness, Grace and Access to us by loving us first. We love because He first loved us.
Then take lots of deep breaths, pray, always maintain the same boundaries, always maintain same discipline and expectations of all children. Help the younger son learn how to treat women (8 yr old sis) with love and care and PROTECTIVENESS even though she's older. Help the older daughter to understand the male side of things -- they are naturally more physical, more rambunctious, and his instinct is to protect even though he's only 6.5 yrs. I pray this message finds you well and hopeful and more inspired. God loves you so!!!!!

[ninipelley]

what are your thoughts on "tomato staking"? I feel that's where we are headed...

[lharris]

I haven't read her book, but I did read the reviews. I'm a little worried about her term "separation." It doesn't work for a parent to ostracize and oversee every single decision, to the extreme. I normally fall onto the side of non-censorship when at all possible. Obviously if aggressive behavior is seen consistently after watching certain cartoons, then try to eliminate them. I prefer to lovingly watch things with my children, read with my children etc, then discuss. This is something you will have to draw from your own experiences and that of your husband. If you have a loving husband, then trust his instincts. Plan your battles carefully, lest you bring your child to anger and rebellion over negotiable things. Discipline should be reserved for attitude, hateful behavior, mouthy behavior, and temper tantrums. I come from a loving home. If I could give the world a gift it would have been my own childhood. These suggestions I'm passing along are examples shown from my own loving mom and dad, and I have 3 wonderful children, plus my sister who is 53, I'm 50 Aaagh! and we are all very close and still love being with each other. My oldest children are 29, 25 and 8 yrs old. We are all still in the Lord and that is the real test of time. If you err, err on the side of laughter always!, love always, and try to find new ways to delight with your children and enjoy life around you. If you don't have pets, get a cat and /or a dog. Dogs especially want nothing more than to exhibit unconditional love to you daily -- morning by morning. Your children will learn from God's creation, just let them observe and delight in the things the Lord has made. In God's amazing Grace,

[tnahid]

One question I have been asking lately is "Who is on the throne of your heart? It is either Jesus or it is you." This has been effective since we did a devotional about this issue, and it is helping. Also, "Shepherding A Child's Heart" is a great resource.

I feel for you. I have 2 strong-willed out of 3 children, and it is a battle, a spiritual one. Put on the full armor of God and take your stand against the devil's schemes. He wants to wreak havoc in our homes through our children. It is difficult, and there are no easy answers, but PRAYER is a mighty weapon in this battle. Cry out to God for understanding and wisdom and He will show it to you. He can transform all things.

Also, IMO, the oldest must be the most accountable. If he/she is the one stirring up strife, take care of it strongly, as this child provides an example for the rest. It may sound harsh on the first born, but I do believe it makes like much easier when the first one's heart is obedient, helpful and wise. It isn't easy if your first born is strong-willed, but focus on bonding and attaching to him/her, to all of your children, and the job of obedience training will be fruitful. If the attachment bond isn't there, it will backfire and be unfruitful.

Bless you!

[tnahid]

Here are some scriptures for reference...there are many differing views/opinions on this, but one view is a literal interpretation of this, which would indicate that using some sort of corrective tool, such as a paddle, switch or wooden spoon, would be a biblical and appropriate way to discipline children. Of course, assuming there is no anger or malice on the part of the parent when administering the loving discipline. That is strictly prohibited in the NT. We are not to invoke anger in our children through our discipline of them. I know people differ on this, but I frankly could not imagine only "swatting" my strong-willed son and daughter and expecting ANY change in them. It would completely senseless and futile of me to do so. They would literally laugh at me on the inside if I did that.

Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.
Proverbs 10:13

Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.
Proverbs 13:24

Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away.

Proverbs 23:13
Saying 13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.

Proverbs 23:14
Punish them with the rod and save them from death.

Proverbs 29:15
A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.

I will say that if you have forged a strong relationship of unconditional love and acceptance with your children, then the discipline with the rod is just an extension of the loving boundaries you set up for them. Children really desire strong boundaries in their lives and parents who love them enough to do the "hard" thing and train themselves in being self-controlled enough to correct them when they need it, in a loving way. Just my thoughts.

[tnahid]

P.S. I "second" the cat and dog suggestion! They add so much joy to life!!!!! I love my kitty and my dog, Emma. They are a blessing to me and so calming to hold them when we are upset. They add much joy and comfort to the children's lives as well.

[MelInKansas]

Okay so I had to go search about "Tomato staking" because I had never heard of it. It's an interesting idea, and I would say I kind of do it, although also that would explain why my 2YO is currently the least obedient of my bunch because she is the one who spends the most time out of my sight. At least, compared to what her sisters did at the same age. She runs off to be with her sisters instead and it does cause problems because she is not nearly as well trained.

Seems like it would be effective, a big lifestyle change to be sure from what we are used to, but I see how that definitely works. We do try to do things together, I involve my children in household tasks (sometimes I fall away from this, sometimes I do better than others). I will read up a little bit more... I could be convinced

The only part of it that I am fairly sure we won't ever do is the "don't sign your child up for things that take them out of your presence." I feel like the group interaction and the godly influence of others is a great benefit to them and me. I am with my children 95% of the time or so, while I know by not letting them out of my (or my husband's) presence would give me more control, I don't need to have all that control, God is in control. Of course we try to make wise decisions about how, where, and with whom our children spend their time.

[ninipelley]

I do appreciate all of your responses so far...i have gleaned the most helpful resources from
"Shepherding
"Don't Make me count to Three"
"Creative Correction"
"Raising Godly Tomatoes"
The resources are all very related.
The main thoughts (and i CANNOT go off of reviews, only my prayerful guidance & biblical belief on the basics in the book) are on reaching the heart, making sure they feel loved, holding them accountable for their own choices, praying for them (God has to work in them, I cannot do this for them), helping them see biblical values (ie, sin & their need for Christ), and that parental training is the best form (tomato staking until they are self-controlled enough & have a conscience) Love the "reproof" put on, take off behavior concept using scriptures & questions to draw out your heart.
Now, I am sharing some very personal information here as it does pertain to the situation. My husband & I both grew up in homes with multi-marriages, and mine included alcoholism & physical abuse as well. My birth father left when I was 6 months old and I grew up without a real father. The Lord has blessed us both with leading us to eachother, both of us were baptized as adults- together. We are trying to apply all Biblical principles to our lives & our marriage is great & happy. We do however struggle with having no familial support & myself I have ALWAYS felt i have to earn love & even then I DO NOT FEEL LOVED. This is extremely hard to deal with in a biblical manner & not worldly.
Anyway, there are many reviews about spanking/ the rod/ all that. I do not want to really get into that. My prior belief was that I would not spank (abuse thoughts), and that if we loved our children well (we do) that everything would be great. But that is not the case. I am so not against using the rod- we have before- and just want some help on how to achieve the time to discipline(train throughout the day) as it seems that someone is always disobeying or yelling or being a distraction. I want to reach their hearts in a biblical way. But achieving this is not as easy as it sounds....
My oldest dd struggles with attitude/disrespect but is responsible
middle two struggle with self-control- Mostly bodily- and disobedience
Baby is just the baby still. a bit testing but nothing stressful.
I hope I am not confusing on what I am asking for. thank you all

[MelInKansas]

It seems like your kids are struggling right where they should be for their ages. I get this mainly from Shepherding a Child's Heart. Youngers learn they must obey Mommy and Daddy - this is God's command to them - at this time they do not and cannot understand why but they must (or suffer consequence, God disciplines those He loves). As they grow they learn godly wisdom from proverbs, they learn about God's rebuke and love. They still must obey, but they are also explained why (this is the wisdom they can learn) and the heart is a big part of what this is all about. We obey God not only because He is our God and our master, but because we know that His way is in fact the best thing for us and we receive His promises and rejoice in them. I deal with attitude with my 6.5 YO quite a lot, in my book though it is not obedience if it is done with a sullen attitude. Sometimes I address this by talking with her, sometimes there is disciplinary action (sometimes she is sent to her room to think about it, sometimes doesn't get something she wants, things like that). Not that the heart is changed by these types of things, and of course we also talk about what God requires and the kind of heart that honors Him. I would say a lot of it is about talking.

Even though things are at a dramatic point in your household obviously, and you want to take drastic measures to fix it, I read through the Tomato Staking idea (at least on the website) and I think taking an older child directly to that level right away would be a hard road to travel. It seems natural with younger children - it requires presence, diligence, and consistency to teach them. But as a PP said - tnahid I think - love has to play a HUGE role as well and while the children need to understand that their behavior has been poor, and that they have some learning and growing to do (some training to receive perhaps), and no matter what kind of discipline change they could perceive it as very harsh. I know the Tomato Staking talks about the love and investment involved in keeping your children close and training them diligently, but it is also a very rigid method focussed on results it seems and not necessarily the heart. Children who are closely staked don't disobey... is this because it is their choice or because they have no choice? Just a couple of thoughts there.

Search your own heart as well. I myself have gone through a road of expectations I have of my children and why I have them, and who do they serve? No matter what you decide to do this is very very important to make sure that their obedience isn't becoming an idol in your heart, something you seek no matter what the cost. I hope this makes sense, I don't mean to judge you in any way over this, more sharing my own path and things the Lord is and has been working on me in. You may be in the opposite place in fact, where love has ruled and discipline needs to take more of a role. But some heart searching and asking the Holy Spirit to reveal your own desires can't be bad for you....

Prayers are with you.