Please talk to me about this

[ChristyH]

I have no one to ask except online boards. I have posted about this before, but maybe I wasn't clear. My daughter 13, soon to be 14 in June is struggling in homeschool. We are just finishing up Saxon 7/6 and will move on to Saxon 8/7 next. We are doing Apologia General science in which she is continually scoring 70% on module tests, sometimes less, and we are 6 modules in. I recall reading in post by Carrie that said high school should wait until they are starting Algebra 1 by freshman year. Science and math are her weak points. Grammar isn't high on her list either. We have mainly used MFW for school and one year of Sonlight. She would like to go to college for writing and piano, so I would say she is more artistic than academic.

I feel like I have not been rigorous enough with her education. We are coming to HOD for that reason. My twins boys will start CTC in August if not sooner...along with her. We are considering extending her 8 grade year and using CTC with extensions and a little more intensive writing and grammar with R&S. Our original plan was to do MFW Ancients for high school with her and start this fall, but I am not sure she is up to it. I want her to be challenged, but not drown or be frustrated in the work. I have looked at what people have added for high school requirements to CTC and that seems more managable to me for her, but I don't want to cheat her of a good college prep high school opportunity. I am agonizing over this. I am praying over this. Is she ready for high school work? Do we wait? Do we use MFW Ancients and continue down that path or beef up HOD? She wants college, but isn't really putting forth the effort for it. I want her success.

Please help me and give me some thoughts on this. I feel that I am too close to the problem to think clearly and objectively about it.

[deltagal]

Christy,

Let me begin by saying I'm not the expert, BUT we all bloom at different times and we all have different strengths.

I would encourage you to honestly evaluate where she is and begin there. A child working on her skill level can make progress beyond the scope of our imagination. It is so important that she be solid on what she does know - building a strong foundation and moving forward from there. I do think that HOD has a methodology about it that truly helps children solidify and advance their skills. I would encourage you to make the switch. CTC with extensions is a great program and I do think it can address some of the concerns you have about what is lacking in your daughter's experience.

I'm using CTC with extensions at present with my 8th grader and I couldn't be more pleased with the academic level and the connections and growth he is experiencing. We are not where we need to be in grammar or in math. But we are getting there. And he's moving forward on his own in areas that truly interest him. Keep in mind that as your daughter matures and advances in her skills that she may want to do some "extra" work in an area to advance herself, if it is something she "needs" for college. There isn't anything in your post that leads me to believe she's not ready for the next step. Keep moving forward in small steps - remember the tortoise and the hare?! Yes, there are children who at your daughter's age have a vision for the future, but let's be honest ...not many. She really is still young. A great deal happens between the ages of 14 and 18 in a child's body and mind.

Also, in this day and time if college is the goal there are many places out there for many different kinds of students. Be assured there is a place for your daughter even as we speak.

I pray that God will give you peace today about your daughter, assuring you that God has a plan for her in God's own perfect timing. Enjoy the journey, be faithful , be assured, be confident.

[davisfam7]

Christy,
First I want you to know you are not alone! We also are making the switch from MFW to HOD. My 14 yo son (May birthday and in 8th grade this year) never would have survived MFW's 9th grade program. My dd 12 (13 in June) is on the gifted side, but very scatterbrained. She has 80 "rabbit trails" going on in her head at all times, but unless I sit on her she has a hard time focusing enough to complete a project. I am going to be using Bigger and Preparing for my 8 and 10 yo sons and am seriously considering using HOD for my older two as well. I also wanted to say that as a 13 yo with a June birthday, your daughter could still be in 8th grade. My 14 yo son with a May birthday did not start Kdg until he was six. It was my choice so he could mature a little more. I started my daughter, another June birthday, at 5, but my 8 yo son who has a July birthday also did not start Kdg until he was 6, so he is in 2nd grade this year. I wish I would have waited with my daughter like i did with the boys. She may be academically bright, but lacks the maturity and motivation to stay on task a lot of the time. I have also talked with HSing moms with older kids that have let their kids take 5 years to complete highschool, especially if they were young for their grade. That is the beauty meeting each child where they are and not trying to force them to be somewhere they are not ready to be. I think deltagal hit the nail on the head when she said that," a child working at her skill level can make progress beyond the scope of our imagination." If they are not constantly struggeling and are alowed to experience success, even in weak areas, they will try harder because they have confidence.

I am muddeling through this right along side of you and I don't have all the answers. But I do know that schooling is not a race, it's not about finishing fast or even on time (whose timing??), it is about finishing well! And if it takes more time or a different route, well then we have to step outside of our "school" box and say that's okay, and move forward. I know sometimes it seems easier said than done Anyway, praying for you, that God would give you wisdom in training your daughter and to help you have peace and to see His Will in her education.

Blessings,
Sarah

mom to:
Taylor 19 dd
Ryan 14 ds
Olivia 12 dd
Alec 10 ds
Jack 8 yo ds

[8arrows]

You are wise to consider your options. There are people on this board who have used CTC with extension and done some beefing up for high school. I will be doing RTR next year for high school. There are also plenty of children who have done pre-algebra for 9th grade and gone on to college. I think you have an exciting year ahead of you. I would just keep going!!!! The Apologia is hard!!!!!! Just an idea for the science. Could you buy the Rev. to Rev. guide and use the physical science in there. It is credit worthy and may be a better fit than Apologia. You could still all do the CTC history. There are always a lot of options. HOD is not one-size fits all.

[tollhousemom]

MFW Ancients is tough--lots and lots of reading. I wouldn't say the amount of reading itself is unreasonable for 9th grade but coupled with the time period and the material/topics being read, it is very challenging. So unless your dd is a strong reader and writer, I would highly recommend CTC, beefing it up as necessary. It would be far better for her to enjoy what she is learning and to build her skills than to be pushed to a frustration point throughout the year. You can always ADD to CTC more easily than you could pare down MFW.

My ds 10 is just finishing CTC (and we have LOVED it!). My dd 14 has been doing MFW AHL. She is pretty strong academically and it has been difficult for her. Now she also ended up having some health issues so I'm having to make adjustments but even without that, it ended up being more that she was just trying to "get through it" than to learn.

Whether or not you consider this upcoming year as 9th grade or 8th grade, based on your description of your dd's skills I would recommend CTC over MFW.

By the way, if you stick with Apologia, we've used it in the past and found that you have to complete and understand the study guide thoroughly and then I had to help my struggling child study the study guide!

tollhousemom

[ChristyH]

Soo, should I beef up CTC for a lite 9th grade year and if I do that how should I beef it up? OR should I just beef it up lightly for for an 8th grade year and not try to count credits? When I asked my daughter about it she wanted a lite 9th grade year. I looked up what someone else did to beef it up and that might be possible. I am leaning toward an eigth grade year with just few more books added. I am still undecided and am praying about it.

I can't remember names because I am new here, but whoever is beefing up RTR could you share how you are beefing it up?

Without a high school plan I can see I feel insecure, of course, I am trying hard to walk by faith and not sight. I am feel confident in our choice to come to HOD. Even my dd commented to me that she thought MFW 1850 to modern was too easy for her. MFW didn't really give me any hints on how to beef it up besides doing extra reports. My DH is concerned that we prepare more rigorously but not crazy hard. That is one of the reasons we decided to come over here. I don't want to do my own thing for high school. (that is my deer caught in the headlights look) I would rather spend the time teaching them or interacting with them during school. I really hope Carrie and Julie find the time to chime as I would love to hear more. I would love to hear more from anyone.

[Wendy in ME]

This is my first HOD post, and I have not RL experience. I will be using CTC next year for 7th and 9th grade boys. I found great info from Carrie regarding beefing up CTC with reading Unwrapping the Pharaohs, The Archaeology Book, Our Young Folks' Josephus, and Our Young Folks' Plutarch. We will also be adding Mapping the World With Art along with the additional reading of The Book of Discovery and Great Discoverers of the Twentieth Century. We will either do DITHOR with HS level books or Smarr's Intro to Lit as suggested by Carrie, R&S 7 (1st half) and IEW Ancient History Based Writing Lessons. We will be continuing with our third year of Discovering Mathematics, Third Form Latin, and Traditional Logic II. He will do science at the public high school. My 7th grader will do CTC as written with Discovering Mathematics 1 A and B, Fallacy Detective, and maybe Apologia General Science. I have purchased all of the additional books to beef up the program for high school per Carrie's suggestions, and they look great. I am very excited to get started on our next year. It will be so much more relaxing than continuing with TOG.

[Polly]

I just wanted to mention that Apologia did not work for my oldest. I felt like there were few options so we persisted until we got 1/2 way through Apologia Biology and gave up. She was not even making 50%. There are so many other options out there now. I can't wait to see what Carrie does with high school science! If it's not working for your daughter don't force it. It's not worth it. I know so many people that Apologia does not work for (especially Gen. Science). Also, my oldest dd struggled with comprehension due to vision issues. Once we fixed those she was better able to understand math and science.

The other ladies have done a great job of encouraging you. I just wanted to add this component.

Polly

[GingerN]

Hugs to you. I hear your pain and frustration. My thought was to really consider if the math, science, and grammar programs your dd is using are the very best *for her*. Maybe her learning style would make another type of program more enjoyable and successful. I've changed maths again and again to find the right fit. Saxon works for some, and is a disaster for others. For us, grammar continues to be R&S, but we do almost all of it orally together and it is doing a good job. Science for high school we're still deciding on, because we've had mixed success with Apologia with our older girls. So maybe your dd needs a change in those courses, since those subjects are the main ones that are tested on the SAT and ACT tests for college entrance. You might also consider adding a SAT prep book for her to start slowly working through. Perhaps a Latin course or other foreign language would be a good addition for her high school transcripts. I also think a switch to HOD would be a breath of fresh air for you all. Ask your dd for her input on these matters, so she can be an integral part of the process and start to 'own' her education and take pride in it. Take some time and write out a sketch of what her 4 high school years should include. I think CTC has most all the things that a 9th grade classical program would have. She can do so much of it independently, and let her work on additional 'rabbit trail' research and reading. Just consider adding a few more upper level books as has been suggested by these lovely ladies.
Ginger

[Carrie]

Christy,

The ladies are doing an absolutely tremendous job of talking through your options with you. I agree fully with their wise counsel as you consider what is best for your daughter.

First of all, I would encourage you to take a good look at the placement chart and decide where your daughter fits all by herself. If you can for now, set aside all thoughts of combining with her younger siblings, and just really focus on where she fits best alone that will give you a better placement for her. It is possible that she may fit in either CTC or RTR, when you consider her all alone.

Next, I'd also encourage you to consider your boys all alone and make sure each of them is best placed in CTC, when taking your daughter out of the equation. The boys need to be able to read their own history and science material and follow fairly lengthy written directions independently, so you'll want them well-placed for that.

Once you have the correct fit for each family member, then I'd move through the areas where your daughter is struggling and work to get a better fit for her if possible. For example, if she is struggling with the math, and it is taking her a long time each day, throwing her day out of balance I'd lean toward consideration of a different math option. At HOD, we are looking to recommend Discovering Mathematics for those families who desire a more Singapore-based math approach, and we are also looking toward recommending VideoText Algebra for those who desire a more traditional math route. If your daughter has not come up through Singapore math, I'd be inclined to recommend a look at VideoText for math. There are also many other math options you could consider instead, but I would definitely consider a switch in that area. I agree that Pre-Algebra in 9th grade is alright for those who are not exploring a math or science related field. Your child can still go on to college when doing Pre-Algebra in 9th. The mention I made of doing Algebra I by grade 9 was in reference to needing that level of math to be able to complete a rigorous level of science in the early years of high school.

Next, I'd take a look at her grammar background, and since you shared that it is on the weaker side, I'd lean toward using Rod and Staff English to help with that. Make sure to do much of each lesson with her orally or on a white board, assigning only one part to do on paper. I'd be inclined to lean toward using Rod and Staff English 5 along with either CTC or RTR for her, as English 5 is considered the foundational year of Rod and Staff. I would work to do all of English 5 in one year with her, and you will see tremendous growth.

Next, I would look at your writing options. I would likely lean toward using whatever writing is scheduled within the program she ends up using. CTC schedules Write with the Best (you could possibly use Vol. II in place of Volume I if your daughter has already had quite a bit of practice in descriptive writing) and RTR schedules Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons.

As far as literature study goes, if she hasn't had much in the way of formal literature study, I would lean toward using DITHR 6/7/8 for her literature portion. Here is a link to possible high school level lit. you could use for each of the genres: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7765&p=56997#p56997

As far as science goes, I agree with 8arrows that a switch to Exploration Education Advanced Version for science, as scheduled within Rev2Rev would be a very good choice. If you wanted to do it without the inventor's study within Rev2Rev, then you could just purchase the EE Advanced Kit on its own and use that for her physical science with lab for high school credit, as it is credit worthy on its own. My own son did something like this for his 9th grade year and enjoyed it immensely.

If you did end up using CTC for grade 9, then her high school cycle would look like this:
CTC - Grade 9
RTR - Grade 10
Rev2Rev - Grade 11 (We would recommend adding government here. There are already suggestions under Rev2Rev for how to do this.)
Modern Times - Grade 12 (We would recommend adding economics/personal finance here. There are already suggestions on the board for how to do this.)

Your world history would be in grades 9-10 with American in grades 11-12. A quarter credit of geography would be awarded over each year, totaling one full credit by grade 12. This is just one way to do it, but it would work well.

CTC for high school: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5400
RTR for high school: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8143

Anyway, feel free to post back and share your thoughts, after you've taken one more good hard look at the first page mainly of the placement chart. I agree that your daughter will make more progress than you can imagine, once we begin slowly steadily working in the incremental skills needed to make her a lifelong learner. You will find those skills wound right within your guide, with each guide's skills building well on the skills from the previous guide. I would go ahead and start counting credit this year, as this will give you the option of graduating her in 4 years if desired. She will change so much as she journeys, and it is good to be prepared for whatever God has in mind for her.

Blessings,
Carrie

[ChristyH]

I missed your reply earlier Carrie and just noticed it today. Perhaps I am not always the sharpest tool in the shed.

I have some more questions..lots more. When I really looked at where my daughter was in the placement guide, she was all over skill wise. She would fit more closely in RTR though. Now my question is if I wanted to make it her 9th grade year, would we use that and add stuff to it or could I just use CTC as a back bone and add more to that? When people are using one of the guides for high school, are they actually using the books in the level or just using the time period as a framework in history to pick out high school level items?

Someone said something that really resonated with me. They said it was better if the child got 90-100% of the material than only 50% of the material they were studying. That made so much sense to us. I paraphrased, but that is why we thought that maybe she should have an extended 8th grade rather than drown in MFW AHL.

She is a good writer, but needs work on grammar and we had already decided on R & S 5 for that and spelling. Her sentences have quite a bit of nice variety. She is definately not heading in a science field or math. She would like to go to college for piano and writing.

Since my money tree withered and died a few years ago, I really need to make good choices in what I buy. DH says get what we need refering to HOD and he is excited about the step in challenge for everyone. I am leaning toward CTC and beefing up, because that would be more frugal but if wiser minds say otherwise I will strongly consider it RTR.She would prefer RTR though. After I have the level squared away, I will have more specific questions on what to use.

Is there a record but to help keep track of hours for high school credits?

Please forgive my jumpy sentences.

[my3sons]

Wow, Carrie gave such good advice there in her carefully thought-out response! I am nodding in agreement. She really hit on so many of the things I was going to say too. A few things in your response stood out to me...

...When I really looked at where my daughter was in the placement guide, she was all over skill wise. She would fit more closely in RTR though.

Based on this, it sounds like when you carefully consider the placement chart with just your dd in mind, she places best in RTR. Plus, you mentioned she is excited about RTR too - a definite plus. I think placing her where she best fits will ultimately result in less expense overall anyway, as fewer extras will have to be purchased to beef it up.

... if I wanted to make it her 9th grade year, would we use that and add stuff to it or could I just use CTC as a back bone and add more to that? When people are using one of the guides for high school, are they actually using the books in the level or just using the time period as a framework in history to pick out high school level items?

I'd say that most people using HOD for high school right now are using the books in that level, and adding some to it. I am thinking you could begin with using RTR along with its extensions, choosing the advanced physical science, and appropriate grammar, math, dictation, and DITHOR levels for her. IEW's writing should be fine.

Someone said something that really resonated with me. They said it was better if the child got 90-100% of the material than only 50% of the material they were studying. That made so much sense to us. I paraphrased, but that is why we thought that maybe she should have an extended 8th grade rather than drown in MFW AHL.

An excellent point! Yes, I agree. Dc truly learning 90-100% of the material on an appropriate level, are learning so MUCH more than dc only able to take in 50% of the material they are studying at a far too advanced level. It is important not to teach far ahead of what dc can grasp. They are left feeling frustrated, discouraged, and under confident when their day consists of being overly challenged from start to finish. It's stressful, for dc and mom. However, in contrast, placing dc where they can truly learn makes the year bright! It makes learning interesting... it makes learning possible. Placing dc where they place on HOD's placement chart helps them be well-matched with the work they will be asked to do throughout the school year. The placement chart places dc so that they naturally will have about 1/3 of the skills down well and are fine tuning them, 1/3 of the skills are at an intermediate level, and 1/3 of the skill are more difficult or new and are being taught at the introductory level. This makes for a balanced day, where dc are appropriately challenged but not overly stretched, so school can be a joy to do! That's why careful consideration of the placement chart is important. It keeps the intended balance of HOD guides intact for each child. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie