Grammar question...R&S vs other programs?

[ninipelley]

1st of all....I just returned (refreshed as always) from NCHEA conference yst and HOD is not a vendor there. I saw a girl in front of me in one of the classes with an HOD catalog so of course i was able to rant and rave about Carrie and the board and the program. She said a girl in the Lobby gave her the catalog & she also had MFW in her hand. I pray she finds the guidance of the Lord and welcomes HOD into her home...

Anyway, I am a bit confused on the grammar choices. I LOVE the fact that R&S is so biblical & thorough, yet my dd8 is in starting Bigger. We are doing R&S 3 and she is bored with the grammar. It seems redundant to her. I interested in if others have felt this way and I there are so many other programs that are excellent as well.

* Primary Language Lessons
* Language Lessons for the Well Trained Mind
* English for the Thoughtful Child

What do you think of supplementing with these or which one? She is just ready for a more fast paced grammar but not placing in Preparing for the History/Science topics yet...

I love this board
I love HOD

Thank you!
Nici

[amysconfections]

There is a thread that I've read on here somewhere about why Carrie chose R&S instead of FLL. Honestly, it's probably not going to be FUN! It's grammer! If R&S is working in retention and she is making progress then don't get the "grass is greener syndrome." If it doesn't work for you then that's totally different. The only other program that I've heard of with great reviews is Shurley English. It's alot more encompassing though. I'll try to find the thread I was talking about and reply with it.

I find it hard to go through the vendor hall and not be pulled to look at other things. Sometimes the fun is picking out what you will use.

[amysconfections]

viewtopic.php?p=29499#p29499

Read down to Carrie's reason for choosing R&S.

[flydena]

I am new to HOD, and haven't even ordered yet, but feel led that this may be the year to do so!

BUT, we have used R&S English in the past, and not only did my children not like it, I did not either. I do like the Biblical content, but did not like the diagramming at all, and personally feel labeling is sufficient and much less confusing!

So, we recently found Character Quality Language Arts. It's a great program and I like it alot, though we use it at about half speed because I feel it is also advanced, and it could take 45 minutes to an hour if we were to do all that is required in a regular day.

I like it because it combines many of Cathy Duffy's Language Arts top picks into one program. (For example, Institute for Excellence in Writing, Spelling Power, etc.) And, it is an all inclusive program.

I don't know if that helps at all, but there is my two cents!


Dena Johns

[annaz]

Redundant how? I know my dd "got it" before the entire unit was over. It's mastery and once we got it, we just moved on. If you know she gets it, you could just do evens or odds. So do you mean redundant that way?

[Carrie]

Nici,

If you are looking for a faster paced grammar, then PLL and English for the Thoughtful Child are both going to be a step down from Rod and Staff in rigor. Both are more CM in their focus with very little in the way of formal grammar instruction. While we love much of CM's philosophy is so many areas, this is one area where we differ. At HOD, we do delay formal grammar instruction just slightly in the early years, starting off gently, but in the long run we want a deep, solid, thorough language arts experience, including all of the instruction that falls under the "English" umbrella. So that is what we schedule throughout our guides.

FLL is mainly a grammar program, so comparing it to Rod and Staff is like comparing apples to oranges. You can see my thoughts on this in the post linked above. I used FLL 1 and 2 with my oldest son and have now used Rod and Staff with him for levels 4, 5, 6, and into 7. Rod and Staff is an English program, incorporating writing lessons, grammar lessons, dictionary skills, prefix/suffix work, poetry, etc. and much, much more. It is truly a full English program. So, if you're looking to use a replacement for Rod and Staff, you'll need to replace all of those areas.

In looking at CQLA, you will find that it is a very time intensive program in many areas. It has significant overlap with much of what we are already teaching and scheduling within our guides in many areas so that is something to weigh as well. For the balance that we are looking for in our guide, we find Rod and Staff to be the perfect fit and complement from year to year.

While grammar is one of the easier areas to supplement or switch out without affecting the flow of your HOD day, it is also one of the most important areas and one that we ponder deeply as we plan each guide. It is possible that by using a different language arts program, you may miss some of the areas we are planning on having covered through Rod and Staff or through the other language arts areas scheduled within our guides.

From what you've shared, it sounds like you may be at the beginning of Bigger Hearts and possibly at the beginning of English 3? If so, it does get more challenging as the year goes on. If, instead you have been doing English 3 for awhile and you are in need of more rigor, our best recommendation would be to move up one level of Rod and Staff to level 4. Make sure to do all of each lesson. There is quite a jump between 3 and 4.

I can understand the desire to have grammar be fun and exciting, as I was on that search myself with my oldest son for years. We did FLL 1&2, then a year of Easy Grammar while using Intermediate Language Lessons for writing, then a year of BJU English and Writing, and finished with part of a year of a "fun" program with cute books and workbooks to learn the grammar concepts. I finally discovered after all that search for fun that my son had retained very little grammar knowledge and no application. He did not see the need for grammar instruction or the reason it was necessary.

At that point I switched to Rod and Staff 4 with him when he was a 5th grader. I cannot tell you the difference in understanding within just a few days, literally. The way Rod and Staff presents their lessons truly speaks to the reason for knowing grammar and all things related to the study of English. It points out that since God himself chose to speak to us through the written word, it is very important for us to be able to convey ourselves in this manner well too. All throughout God's word, we find that specific wording, or the way things are phrased, or the word order makes a huge difference in our interpretation. This is the reason for studying diagramming, as it teaches all of those skills. It helps students visually see a sentence and its design, ponder the specific word choices, see the way things are grouped and phrased, and grasp the meaning. I have now switched my goals from looking for a fun program that entertains the children to one that provides purposeful, solid, specific, God-honoring instruction in English and writing that speaks to the heart of my children. A side benefit is that it also prepares my children well in so many areas regularly tested each year. We have been blessed to have found that within Rod and Staff.

While you can use a different program to fulfill this area if desired, the HOD Board is focused on helping you use the language arts components scheduled within the HOD guides. Should you desire to pursue a further discussion of a different program than those we schedule, you'll want to take that discussion to that publisher's board or website instead.

Blessings,
Carrie

[flydena]

Carrie -

Thank you so much for sharing more about your vision for the Language Arts aspect in HOD. I am new to the boards, and new to HOD. I just recenly found HOD and truly feel led to it. And, the more I learn, the more I'm falling in love with it....and I haven't even ordered yet! LOL!

I am really having a tough time deciding where to place my children in HOD because of the grammar and LA. When I've used the placement chart, I believe my 10 and 13 year olds are both ready for Resurrection to Reformation, in all areas, except for grammar. We have done so little when it comes to grammar, and what we have done, I've pieced together, and have NOT focused on grammar (because of CM's ideas). So, they are familiar with IEW, which I know you use in RtR, they are not bad spellers, they have done narrations (though this is a fairly new concept, so we are still working on this), and also dictation. They know about capitalization, abbreviations, antonyms, synonyms, and most punctuation. I guess, my question would be should I put them in RtR and just put them in a lower R&S level? OR, could I possibly use a really basic grammar program that would familiarize them enough with the parts of speech that they could fit better into the R&S English recommended for RtR? (4-6 grade levels?) I really do believe they do fine with all other language arts at their specific grade levels, except for grammar.

Honestly, I think when I used R&S before, a few years ago, I put them in at the wrong levels. I put them at the grade they were currently in, not realizing this was an advanced program. So, looking back, I see we were all overwhelmed with how difficult it was, and it was just easy to drop because of that! And, when you go into a program where you've never diagrammed like they do, and at the WRONG level, it didn't make sense....now, the way you explained it above, it makes much better sense, and I think I may have dropped the program before even giving it a chance.

Even before I found HOD, when I pieced together my own curriculum and made it as CM as I knew how, I always struggled with the Language Arts....I guess because deep down I feel the same as you do. I didn't want them to miss out on some of the English that other CMers didn't think was necessary, but I trusted what I was told rather than going with my gut, and now I feel my children are struggling on things that they should already know! I guess that's why I chose such a rigorous & time consuming program...which is still too overwhelming for them!

I would truly appreciate any guidance you could give on this. I have posted other placement posts on the message boards as well, but know you are very busy right now, and the others that have posted on my messages have helped, but I have to admit, I still am unsure as to where to place my kiddos!

Sincerely,
Dena

[Carrie]

Dena,

Thanks for your patience in hearing back from me. I do eventually get through the posts on the board, but I work through them slowly, pondering as I go. I agree that correct placement in Rod and Staff makes a huge difference in how successful a child is with the program and in how good of a fit it is. Since your son is going into 8th grade, I would likely lean toward placing him in English 5, as that is considered to be key year for Rod and Staff. I'd do it full-speed. For your daughter who is headed into 5th grade, I would lean toward English 4 done at half-speed.

As far as placement in our guides go, I would likely lean toward CTC as being a good fit for sure for now, but with the post where you shared about doing the ancient time period over and over again, I can definitely see where you would want to move on (and with the CM skills you've been working on this past year on your own, you may find you can move into RTR fairly well). One of my concerns in placing your kiddos in RTR lies within the fact that they will need to do their own readings, or you will find yourself fairly worn out reading the history aloud to them. Your kiddos will also need to move toward independence in reading and following written directions, which may be a newer skill on the level we have it scheduled within our guides.

With your grounding in a CM-style education from this past year, I do think you'll be able to move into RTR, although you may need to start slowly to train your kiddos in what is expected at first. Plan to start half-speed for awhile and move up when their comfort level is there. Sit with them and train them how to use the guide, how to go through their directions, and then oversee all they do at first. They will grow so much as you train them, and it will pay big dividends in the long run.

If your son is not an avid reader, I would stay away from the Extension Pack for him for now as there will be plenty within RTR for him that will be new and challenging without it. You can always add it later if you feel he is ready for more.

Hope that helps!

Blessings,
Carrie

[flydena]

Carrie-

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I am feeling much more confident with the answers you've provided! I can't wait to start this fall. And, I agree that taking it slow to start will be wise, and we can pick up the pace when they get the hang of it.

Also, a BIG thank you for helping me to figure out where to place them in R&S. That was the BIGGEST concern. I also talked with R&S at the homeschool conference I just attended. I just feel so much more at peace about it all. Praise the Lord!

Dena