Using studied dictation but need a reference for rough spots

[abrightmom]

Ladies,

In my attempts (feeble still) to let go of All About Spelling I am finding that there are times I need a reference for instructing my child in why a word is spelled the way it is. It seems to fall flat here to say, "Well, that's how you spell 'back'" (when my son wants to spell it with "just a k rather than a ck"). When using AAS I am able to explain the "why", demonstrate it and he gets it! Light bulbs go on in his brain! Then he applies that "rule" to other words b/c he remembers it! I realize that doesn't happen in all cases but I am seeing that it is proving helpful in my kids' learning. In other instances my older son has used what he has learned about syllables in reading multi syllable words. The fact that he knows an open syllable always has a long vowel sound (and he knows how to divide a word into syllables) helps him to read that multi syllable word with correct pronunciation. Granted, we have a ways to go here (reading multi syllable words) but he does USE these few tools that he has learned. They are helping him.

How do I overcome this hurdle with studied dictation? I am feeling like my guys need a combination of "learn some of the whys and hows first" and THEN apply that via studied dictation, at least for a season. Or perhaps it is ME who needs the whys and hows so I can better instruct my kids.

I have read and re-read all of the threads. I believe in the power of dictation and believe it is worthy of a front row seat in our studies. But, where does the basic spelling know how come from? How do I walk my kiddos through trouble spots? I do see how using the word lists in Beyond teaches patterns based on phonograms but the lists don't give me the whys or help me to demonstrate/teach my kiddo WHEN we use this or that. I'll go back to my manual and read it again. I often miss things and after reading again with purpose I find what I'm looking for. Does learning these patterns seem to program a child's brain? Am I missing something in the purpose of the Beyond spelling lists that precede studied dictation?

I do so want to be a HOD purist but I'm still grappling through spelling.

The bottom line is I think we need a rules based foundation explaining some of the whys and the sounds (kinda like phonics ) upon which we build a structure via dictation (applying what we have learned). Or I need to know how I would go about instructing my kids when we hit trouble (as we already have early in the game here). I lack the know how to explain the whys on my own. A program like AAS does a great job teaching ME how to teach my kids; how to answer questions along the way. Maybe I should just buy and read all the manuals and shelve them for a ready reference. Then, if we hit a trouble spot I can look for that in my manuals and teach it in a concrete way. Then we could move on with the studied dictation until we hit another trouble spot.

I am needing counsel, encouragement, advice, stories, etc. I am not getting to a place of peace in the decision!!!!

[MrsMandy]

I too have this problem and am wondering if AAS is something I need as I really do not feel like researching it all on my own. I currently use Sequential Spelling which is something I can at least figure out and Spelling Power which is very similar to the HOD list as far as rules. My goal is to have my children know the patterns/rules and be able to apply them during dictation similar to you. I look forward to responses for this as neither of my children are natural spellers like me.

[John'smom]

I don't have answer concerning the HOD questions. I too am in your position. We used SWR for 2 yrs. and this is our first year with AAS, and also our first year with HOD. Love, love, love HOD. I do wish I somehow had the courage to switch to dictation, as it would save me tons of time each day. Anyway, I've never read it, but I've heard really good things about a book called The ABC's and All Their Tricks. Maybe that's what you're looking for.

[blessedmomof4]

I couldn't find the right words, so I looked up Charlotte Mason's own:
"A child of eight or nine prepares a paragraph, older children a page, or two or three pages. The child prepares by himself, by looking at the word he is not sure of, and then seeing it with his eyes shut. Before he begins, the teacher asks what words he thinks will need his attention. He generally knows, but the teacher may point out any word likely to be a cause of stumbling. He lets his teacher know when he is ready. The teacher asks if there are any words he is not sure of. These she puts, one by one, on the blackboard, letting the child look till he has a picture, and then rubbing the word out. If anyone is still doubtful he should be called to put the word he is not sure of on the board, the teacher watching to rub out the word when a wrong letter begins to appear, and again helping the child to get a mental picture. Then the teacher gives out the dictation, clause by clause, each clause repeated once only! She dictates with a view to the pointing, which the children are expected to put in as they write; but they must not be told 'comma,' 'semicolon,' etc. After the sort of preparation I have described, which takes ten minutes or less, there is rarely an error in spelling. If there be, it is well worth while for the teacher to be on the watch with slips of stamp-paper to put over the wrong word, that its image may be erased as far as possible. At the end of the lesson, the child should again study the wrong word in his book until he says he is sure of it, and should write it correctly…" ( C. Mason Home Ed 241, 242)
By studying words in context, rather than in lists with rules, your child practices the habit of attentiveness, learns to "see" the word in his mind's eye correctly, and also learns proper punctuation, capitalization, and grammar all in one brief lesson. It takes at least a full year to see the fruits, but what wonderful fruits! When my youngest had spelling lists, she always did great, but in her writing she could not spell the same words correctly-success with spelling lists was limited to passing a test. But now, after a year and a half of studied dictation, I see a huge improvement in her spelling in her own writing. The skill internalizes so that as she is writing something original, she even self-corrects- she may start to write a word incorrectly and then I'll see her looking at her "mental photograph" and then say "Hey that's not right, it should be____" Hope that helps

[MrsMandy]

Lourdes thank you for this reminder I even have CM books on my shelf I just get so wrapped up in what they don't know yet and impatient about getting them to where they know something. I do think I need something to help show them why something is spelled a certain way but that in tandem with dictation to learn to see spelling and correct sentence structure/grammar.

[MomtoJGJE]

We drilled Jayden (because I didn't understand the spelling lists) and she would get it right when we were drilling her but not elsewhere. She's in a spelling class now, and she can learn the words for class, but not actually spell the words. (the class is an enrichment class.... all the other classes she wanted to take were cancelled, and I couldn't see putting her back in a lower level of anything else)

Dictation however has gotten her to SEE the words. She sees how they fit. She actually writes capital letters and punctuation and correct spelling (or closer to correct than she was doing it) and her letters are all facing the right way now!!

So even though she won't know rules right now, dictation is helping her become a better writer and thinker.... and I believe a better speller.

[lharris]

I too love dictation and see the progression of skills. My ds8 is just now starting dictation periodically although we won't use it regularly until we start Bigger. There is no reason why, if you are like me and love the exactness of learning the whys of language, you cannot keep that component as part of your Language Arts study. Don't think that you have to abandon one or the other method. It's ok to do both and your child will not suffer I also like explaining the whys of long vowels at the end of syllables, etc. I've never used the program you have referenced but have learned quite a bit of exhaustive phonics from Spell Write Read and Jessie Wise Teaching Reading at Home. When Carrie talks about completing a phonics program, she is referring to these kinds of programs that are probably more phonics instruction than just spelling. Praises for the relaxed spelling approach in Beyond! It works! Dictation is a growth component from spelling. The other language analysis that has been mentioned is actually more a phonics component than just spelling and you are more than welcome to keep this in your program as long as your child needs it. I hope this makes sense or is in some way helpful...

[pjdobro]

I agree that the "rules" are something that is typically covered in phonics. I didn't use as nice of an approach to phonics as I would have liked, switching programs several times finally ending with Phonics Pathways. I think we finally covered pretty much everything but when we did the spelling lists that followed a particular rule, I would review the rule. For the sake of my ds who seems to forget the rules, I remind him of them when we come across some of the new words in the dictation exercise. I usually don't have to refer to my book, but if I need to look up a phonics/spelling rule, I can usually find it in my Phonics Pathway book. I imagine you can also find all of the rules online somewhere. It's nice to have the rules handy to reference if they are needed. I pulled out my Phonics Pathway book to see if it had a summary of rules (which is does) and came across a page entitled "Spelling Strategies". She goes through a list of various strategies to help children learn to be great spellers. The last item, number 6, I thought was so pertinent to this thread. She says, "After a while begin dictating phrases and sentences, and not just the words. If dictation is limited to word families alone students may not be able to spell the word outside of context. Only when students spell words correctly in sentences can you be absolutely certain that the spelling rule has been truly and thoroughly integrated. This activity helps develop memory and concentration as well." I thought this was interesting that she suggests dictation as a means to cement spelling rules for dc. I agree with the pp if a child still needs reminding of the phonics rules to help with spelling then by all means incorporate them along with your dictation. If however, they haven't had those rules before, then they might need more phonics instruction before beginning dictation.

[abrightmom]

I too love dictation and see the progression of skills. My ds8 is just now starting dictation periodically although we won't use it regularly until we start Bigger. There is no reason why, if you are like me and love the exactness of learning the whys of language, you cannot keep that component as part of your Language Arts study. Don't think that you have to abandon one or the other method. It's ok to do both and your child will not suffer I also like explaining the whys of long vowels at the end of syllables, etc. I've never used the program you have referenced but have learned quite a bit of exhaustive phonics from Spell Write Read and Jessie Wise Teaching Reading at Home. When Carrie talks about completing a phonics program, she is referring to these kinds of programs that are probably more phonics instruction than just spelling. Praises for the relaxed spelling approach in Beyond! It works! Dictation is a growth component from spelling. The other language analysis that has been mentioned is actually more a phonics component than just spelling and you are more than welcome to keep this in your program as long as your child needs it. I hope this makes sense or is in some way helpful...

You stated precisely what I am thinking and feeling. I DO love "the exactness of learning the whys of language" . . .

[abrightmom]

I agree that the "rules" are something that is typically covered in phonics. I didn't use as nice of an approach to phonics as I would have liked, switching programs several times finally ending with Phonics Pathways. I think we finally covered pretty much everything but when we did the spelling lists that followed a particular rule, I would review the rule. For the sake of my ds who seems to forget the rules, I remind him of them when we come across some of the new words in the dictation exercise. I usually don't have to refer to my book, but if I need to look up a phonics/spelling rule, I can usually find it in my Phonics Pathway book. I imagine you can also find all of the rules online somewhere. It's nice to have the rules handy to reference if they are needed. I pulled out my Phonics Pathway book to see if it had a summary of rules (which is does) and came across a page entitled "Spelling Strategies". She goes through a list of various strategies to help children learn to be great spellers. The last item, number 6, I thought was so pertinent to this thread. She says, "After a while begin dictating phrases and sentences, and not just the words. If dictation is limited to word families alone students may not be able to spell the word outside of context. Only when students spell words correctly in sentences can you be absolutely certain that the spelling rule has been truly and thoroughly integrated. This activity helps develop memory and concentration as well." I thought this was interesting that she suggests dictation as a means to cement spelling rules for dc. I agree with the pp if a child still needs reminding of the phonics rules to help with spelling then by all means incorporate them along with your dictation. If however, they haven't had those rules before, then they might need more phonics instruction before beginning dictation.

I guess I agree with you and would throw out that the approaches to spelling I am referring to use spelling to teach reading . I do understand that the rules are the same whether we're talking about reading or spelling instruction. My oldest son learned to read very quickly and largely on his own. We never did anything systematic because I'd choose something to "do" with him and then realize he was way past it. I have floundered for two years with "phonics instruction" for him and I'm concerned about hitting a slump in about 4th grade when the reading level goes up for him. Presently, he reads and spells well (spelling around 5th grade level) but lacks the "rules" understanding. I've floundered because I really thought he didn't need any more "phonics instruction" due to his reading abilities. But, now, I'm REALLY questioning this and thinking that I made a mistake. He stumbles BADLY with multi syllable words and though he's very bright and uses context to grasp what he's reading he DOES miss important content. I believe doing DITHOR will help him because he will have to read to me and I can catch his errors.

In the meantime, I want to teach him some strategies for reading and spelling those multi syllable words. He responds VERY well (and quickly) to whys and rules. He applies them with very little practice. This is what I'm struggling with... I ABSOLUTELY believe in the power of dictation. In fact, the spelling program we were using prior to moving to HOD uses dictation regularly. But, I find that I need a little more in helping my guy know "why". He doesn't need phonics instruction (I don't think! ) but I think he needs a bit more explicit instruction in the whys behind spelling. I guess maybe that IS phonics instruction! I don't know. I'm going in circles this week trying to figure out what to do with my guy.

He fits comfortably in Level 3 dictation in the Preparing manual. He spells very well for his age and does not struggle with dictation. I DID take him all the way through The Ordinary Parents Guide to Teaching Reading last year in an attempt to find any "holes". I think it was helpful and we camped on the multi syllable words for awhile. At one time he did Explode the Code 1-3. We stopped after that because his reading ability was so far past it. I've now decided I probably should have asked him to finish the series anyway because it would have cemented his understanding of the rules.

He has NO strategies for multi syllable words. He's a mess with those. I'm trying to figure out how to help him with that. I really am floundering right now . . .

[abrightmom]

I agree that the "rules" are something that is typically covered in phonics. I didn't use as nice of an approach to phonics as I would have liked, switching programs several times finally ending with Phonics Pathways. I think we finally covered pretty much everything but when we did the spelling lists that followed a particular rule, I would review the rule. For the sake of my ds who seems to forget the rules, I remind him of them when we come across some of the new words in the dictation exercise. I usually don't have to refer to my book, but if I need to look up a phonics/spelling rule, I can usually find it in my Phonics Pathway book. I imagine you can also find all of the rules online somewhere. It's nice to have the rules handy to reference if they are needed. I pulled out my Phonics Pathway book to see if it had a summary of rules (which is does) and came across a page entitled "Spelling Strategies". She goes through a list of various strategies to help children learn to be great spellers. The last item, number 6, I thought was so pertinent to this thread. She says, "After a while begin dictating phrases and sentences, and not just the words. If dictation is limited to word families alone students may not be able to spell the word outside of context. Only when students spell words correctly in sentences can you be absolutely certain that the spelling rule has been truly and thoroughly integrated. This activity helps develop memory and concentration as well." I thought this was interesting that she suggests dictation as a means to cement spelling rules for dc. I agree with the pp if a child still needs reminding of the phonics rules to help with spelling then by all means incorporate them along with your dictation. If however, they haven't had those rules before, then they might need more phonics instruction before beginning dictation.

Patty,

I forgot to mention that I do own Phonics Pathways and I'm going to pull it out and look at the section you referenced. You are right in what you've quoted pertaining to this thread! Perhaps my PP book will give me the "whys" and I can just go to that section as needed. I also just realized that I could see if she has any advice or strategies pertaining to multi-syllable words. I appreciate you mentioning Phonics Pathways!

[pjdobro]

That is really interesting to use spelling to teach reading. I've never heard of it that way, but the two are so closely related, I can see how that would be possible. One of the reasons I got Phonics Pathways is because of my own haphazard approach to phonics. I had read here on this board several ladies who were using it with older children to just review or solidify phonics. It seemed to be both geared at reading and spelling so I thought it would be good especially for my ds who is not a natural speller and was slower to pick up reading. If I had been around HOD when my dc were just starting to read, I probably would have started with one of the programs that Carrie recommends and would have been all set.

I understand where you are coming from now with your ds. You might find the way PP suggests writing out the rules, then applying them with dictation to be the perfect solution for your ds. I do see that it has some guidelines as to how to read multi-syllable words. I don't think I went through this with my dc and I probably should. I think you are right that DITHR will be good as it will help you to hear him reading and help you correct problems on the fly. It sounds like the dictation is a good way to go as well and will help you find any problems he might have. One of the things I am liking about dictation is that it helps me get a feeling for the way my dc are thinking about the words as they are studying them and then writing them. We are still in the early stages, but I like the way a spelling pattern or two is repeated in each exercise so even though it is within a sentence, often you find several words with the same pattern in each exercise. That is a great opportunity to review the rules for that pattern. I hope you find the solution that works well for you and your ds. It's got me thinking about my own ds and what more I possibly should be doing for him.

[lharris]

I DID take him all the way through The Ordinary Parents Guide to Teaching Reading last year in an attempt to find any "holes". I think it was helpful and we camped on the multi syllable words for awhile. At one time he did Explode the Code 1-3. We stopped after that because his reading ability was so far past it. I've now decided I probably should have asked him to finish the series anyway because it would have cemented his understanding of the rules.

He has NO strategies for multi syllable words. He's a mess with those. I'm trying to figure out how to help him with that. I really am floundering right now . . .

Hello,
I think this is a very interesting thread! This is an area that I really have an interest in. You mentioned you had gone through all of Ordinary Parents Guide --- I think you should be fine now that you have gone through that very good course. If as you go through the year, you still feel like you want to study logic /rules of language with your son, I would suggest two components to your Language Arts box. One would be a phonics flashcards set like Spell to write & read has all phonograms and spelling rules you need. The other is Latin instruction which will help cement the logic of language and prepare child for high school Latin study and other Foreign Languages. But again, these are not necessary additions, but are fun if you have an interest or if you feel your child will benefit.