I need advice, ds does not like school

[kiloyd]

My ds is 9 and we will be doing Preparing in the fall. He is smart but if he doesn't WANT to do something it will be a battle. He does not like any of the sit down and think stuff, like math, cursive, and English. I really like HOD, we've used it 2 years now. He likes the science and history reading pretty well. Likes the science experiments.

Once he decides he will do his math or writing or whatever he does in well it's just getting him to do it. I've thought about relaxed schooling , I sort of do. I've let him pick the schedule. I would say that the first half of our year went pretty well. Feb, and Mar. there was lots of "I'm not doing it!". In April or so we began alternating math and English each day so he didn't have to do both in one day.

I have recently tried the timer and he liked that. I said "I'll set the timer and you need to be working on your math for 15 min.". I worry though if I do that, what do I do if he doesn't finish it? I guess i could do 15 min of math in the morning and 15 min in the afternoon.

On frustrating days my mind goes to thinking it may be time for public school. But I really don't want to do that. I don't think God is leading me that way. The answer, I think, is to change up school. Of course he may surprise me and show more maturity this coming school year. He did make a jump from 2nd to 3rd grade.

Any tips?
Thank you,
Katherine

[MomtoJGJE]

You know we are relaxed schoolers, but here's where it differs from what you said... I do NOT let her/them choose WHEN we do school. I might let them choose left side or right side or all of it, but I tell them when we are doing school. School is not optional, so I don't ask.

and public school won't help, he'll just complain about school in the few hours you have at home with him, and it will be a battle to get him to do homework every night.

Maybe make him do the stuff he doesn't like before he gets to do the part he does like? or make it a big reward, like if he does 4 weeks of school without complaint you'll go do something he really really likes, like the beach or something big like that.

Thinking more about it, maybe it's just a habit for him to complain? Maybe you need to work on that? For the girls, when they start complaining before they do something I'll have them say Philippians 2:14 "Do everything without complaining or arguing." and if it's complaining while they are doing something that it's too hard we sing the Yo Gabba Gabba song "Keep trying, keep trying. Don't give up, never give up." which is pretty much Galatians 6:9 "Do not get tired of doing good, for you will reap at the proper time if you do not give up"... Saying these things, or with Jayden having her look them up, helps them to see that it's not ME or DH trying to get them to work hard, but God wants them to as well...

[Bramble]

I just wanted to say that I can really relate to your post. I'm really weary of the battle w/ my son who will be 9 on July 9th. Not only does it not want to do seatwork, but he can't seem to stay focused so everything takes way longer than it should. Part of it is just boys I think. (HUGS)

[eazbnsmom]

I just went to a convention a couple of week ago where I had the privilege of hearing Andrew Pudewa (IEW) speak. The title of his oration was "Teaching Boys and Other Children Who Would Rather Make Forts All Day". He discussed the difference between the way most boys and girls learn. One of his suggestions was to let your son (or active child) stand while doing math, writing and other seatwork. I know it goes against tradition with handwriting, but he said that most boys (and men) think better when standing up. He had a lot of good information and is very fun to listen to. I would recommend hearing him if you can. http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/tb-d


DISCLAIMER: I am not in anyway employed or connected with IEW. Just really blessed by his talk.

[lmercon]

Hey, eazbnsmom, I was at that convention too! I think you are talking about SEARCH. I was at that same seminar. He was really great! I agree with your recommendation.

To the OP, please don't take this wrong, but it seems to me that your ds sees what you call, "relaxed homeschooling" as, "I'm in charge homeschooling." He's calling the shots and whining when he doesn't get his way. I have a hsing family member who has similar struggles, so I know it isn't an easy task, but you have to take back the reigns of your hs. He doesn't get to decide if he's going to do his work or not. You are his parent and teacher, and he does the work when you tell him to do so. Now, in your own mind, you determine whether he deserves a break or not, whether he's done enough for the day, etc, but he doesn't get to convince you of that by his complaining spirit. You make those determinations on your own accord. My ds is usually not a complainer. He is very compliant, but there are days when he drags and dawdles. I have told him before that he WILL do his work. That is not his choice. He does have a choice though. He can do it willingly, with a pleasant spirit, and enjoy the process of learning. Or he can do it with a spirit of discontent. If he chooses to remain unhappy, I inform him that that is unfortunate because it will make it harder to get his assignment done. In addition, it will cause Mommy to talk this heart issue over with Daddy when he comes home and determine how we can "help" him change his attitude. That usually works very well!

I would suggest that you put time limits on his independent work. If he has not completed the work by that time, he has to close up the books and put them in a homework box. He is not permitted to touch them again until you say so. Inform him that your time is precious because you have a lot to do and you don't deserve to have to wait on him until he decides to get finished. Continue on with your school day. After dinner, during the evening when the rest of the family is enjoying free time, games, movie, tv show favorite, etc, Mister Doesn't Want to Do It, must go away from the family with his homework box and complete the school work. If he fusses now, Dad will be home to witness and deal with it. Honestly, if you follow through with this without exception, I don't think he'll complain much more about doing school work!

Once you have a more outwardly-compliant child, you can begin to deal with the heart issues. Search the Scriptures and point out how his rebelliousness is sin before God. I know that my family member is a very strong, consistent person, but her ds can sometimes outlast even her! It's hard. Try to establish some routine and expectation and then stick to it with every fiber of your being. Don't let him exhaust you and outlast you. Stay controlled, focused, and deliberate.

I hope I didn't offend or hurt you in any way. This is given just as opinion and in a spirit of wanting to help.
Laura

[mommadonna]

Hi Katherine,
Just wanted to offer you a bit of encouragement. I have no serious homeschool experience, but I do have a ds, who also "thinks" he does not like school. He is just 5 now, so he doesn't really know much about school yet. We have had our fair share of battles, he surely does not like to sit and do work.

If you feel God has led you to homeschool, then just know in your heart you are doing what He wants. He will guide you. I know it is easy to get discouraged when things are not going well, but you can perservere. Also, I agree that ps will probably not help, think about what that could do to a boy's already, not so good additude. That being said, I know (from experience) what a decision that is to face and you have to do what is best for your family.

I would also suggest going to a nearby convention, if you can. It really helped me to get some fresh ideas and to talk with others facing the same dilema. I know for me, if my additude is good and I am determined, he will see that in me and know that he can't mess around (as much). Going to the convention and listening to the different speakers and doing the workshops really gave me a boost!

Hope this helps..hang in there!

[spidermansmum]

Hi Katherine
You said a timer worked - thats something we use too.I found it helps my son to concentrate-and we dont have an issue with work not getting done -besides If has faithfully worked for 15/20 minutes-or whatever-then this is good enough for me -its not about how much we get done-its about developing his ability to focus his attention .Start with smaller time increments and build up his concentration strength.
I think given the choice most kids would rather not do school-except Stanley who loves it.I do Stanley first because he loves to do school and Nathan -not so much.I see you have youngers-would you be able to 'set the scene' by doing their school work first?That way is a gentle introduction to the school day for Nathan and helps him transition.
We used a visual timetable but now Nathan is alittle older we can just show him the Curriculaum guide and he covers each box with a tiny post it note and Nathan can see exactly what is expected of him.
We also allow him to choose a marble after he has finished school-he is getting quite a marble collection[I bought ajar of marbles for 1.50].The carrot definately works better for us-with some encouragement and praise.

HTH

[annaz]

Oh my gosh, my dd (just 10) is like this....I don't have time to respond, but I have to bookmark this thread till later....

[my3sons]

You've gotten excellent advice here already! First, let me say that we all struggle with instilling good habits in our dc (and in ourselves too). An incredible amount of CM's 6 volume series is devoted to habit training!!! So let me encourage you that what you are describing here is what happens to each of us many times over in our lives, both in our personal lives, and in our lives as being the "mother/teacher" for our dc - A habit that needs to be changed just brought itself to your attention in an obvious way. (Personally, I unfortunately really do tend to need the "obvious" way most of the time in my life, or I somehow miss the habit even is there.) It seems like your ds needs to learn better work habits (my dc have had this need as well off and on over the years). This habit will follow him in any type of (school) work he does, regardless of the curriculum you choose, or the place he is schooled (home or ps). I do think boys aren't as inclined to "love" school, but blessedly HOD is written by a mom of 4 boys, so it is quite boy friendly to do. It sounds like you have tried relaxed homeschooling, and not had an easy go of it with ds. It also sounds like the timer works for him. These 2 things make me inclined to say that setting a routine order of doing things, and setting the timer for each thing, would be a good thing to do as they will help teach him the habit of good work. I know many view a schedule or routine as binding, but instead I've found it freeing. Dc know what the expectation is, and they can move on without us if they need to, as the routine is established. Some dc need this more than others, and I think your ds might fit that bill.

I'd let him know school is his job, and that he needs to do it with a cheerful attitude and complete it in a timely fashion to the best of his ability (basic "job" requirements for any young "man") . We usually reference Dad's job at this point, and Dad jumps in to explain the kind of worker and provider he expects our dc to be when they grow up, and what that looks like now in their school "job". I would give your ds the PHFHG manual at this point, and explain these are the requirements for this year's "job" (if you subbed in something for a box explain that too). But overall, he needs to use the manual like his Dad would follow a job manual, and complete the tasks in it each day. Explain to him you will be training him how to use this manual as his own, and yet you will oversee his work as well. Doing what's in the manual each day is necessary, important, and may not be negotiated or skipped. Our sons have come to take great ownership in completing their tasks, and if they ever ask to omit something, I wide-eyed say "absolutely not", there is no fluff in here, this is important stuff, and I would not be doing my job of homeschooling you well if we started skipping things, just as you would not be doing your job as a student well if you skip things. Skipping things makes them seem skippable - unimportant, and believe me, once you start skipping things or moving things to once and awhile, it's a habit that is hard to undo. They wear us down, if they think they can talk their way out of work - so it's better not to ever offer that option.

Also, complaining is not an option, and should be followed with consequences. We have our dc take a time out for a minute per years of age in their room (i.e. 10 minutes for my 10 yo), 7 min. for my 7 yo), and they do not have the privilege of rejoining school until they can apologize and have a right attitude about school. They have come down with a still sour attitude before, and then it's right back up for another 10 or 7 minutes. "We can do this all day, but I'm having my free time this afternoon, whether you get yours or not," I say. This is very effective when a routine has been established, as they can see their time ticking away, and with it their afternoon play time. I do hug them and say let's get back to our work together now with a cheerful attitude, o.k.? I'm over it if you're over it." And usually we're o.k. then. I think I only had to do this a handful of times all of last school year, but if it happens too often in a row, dad intervenes.

Next I'd type or write up a schedule with a start time and an order of boxes with the timer limit next to each thing. I would start with his hardest subject and get it out of the way first. It sounds like math may be a good one to begin with. I would give him the checkoff schedule for math assignments. From there, I'd schedule out his boxes, according to the times noted for PHFHG at this link:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4244&p=31219#p31219

I'd have a timer handy, where he can clearly see it so he learns to manage his time. PHFHG takes around 3 1/2 to 4 hours to do. I'd start at around 8:30 with a goal to be done by lunch. I'd have him check off each box in his "work manual" as he does them (teaching task completion). I'd clip along, plow through, set the timer, follow the routine, not do anything extra, and only homeschool during this time - and let him see being diligent about his work in the morning gives him the rest of the day off. Well worth the focus in the morning. I'd think of this as homeschooling boot camp - only as you being on his side, on his team, to help real change to happen! He needs to see you in charge (a whistle may be going overboard ), but also see himself as a worker that has important work to do. We've had the talk with our dc about how dad and I have both worked jobs where it could take 4 hours to do the work, or it could take 8 hours to do the work - same amount of work - just depended on the drive of the worker. "Dad and I are the 4 hour workers - we are get it done people, and that's what we want you to be." We point out blessedly "you have a 4 hour work job right now, you CAN draw it out to 6 or 8 hours, but WHY would you? Don't you value your free time too? Well, here's your assignment. This guide. 4 hours a day. Here are the tools to get it done."

Boys seem to especially appreciate this "going to work" and "important job to do" approach. They also can appreciate that finishing school in 4 hours = more free time the rest of the day. This approach has done more to help our sons become hard workers that have the habit of using time wisely without being complainers than anything else. I know this is very different from what you've been doing, and I know it isn't for everyone, but you have nothing to lose by trying it - especially if you are considering putting him in ps. Ps will be routine ALL day, while homeschooling allows us to have routine part of the day, and free time the whole rest of it. You can have your ds plan his afternoons and his evenings rather than his school time. I think you'd find a few months in, if a routine has really been stuck with, a huge difference! Know you are SOOOOOOOOO not alone here - a ton of CM's volumes are devoted to habits. It seems all of my life as a woman/mom is realizing somehow a bad habit took root and I missed it - sometimes in my dc, sometimes in me. But then, we go to work on the bad habit, and replace it with a better habit. I share my struggles with this with my kiddos too (i.e. I just told them how much I need to exercise for my health, and now they are cheering me on each day so I can). Anyway, all of life seems to go this way, but I will say, the joys of life are often in the formation of good habits, and - praise the Lord - with care those multiply too! Praying for you and your sweetie as you ponder all of this!

In Christ,
Julie

[my3sons]

You've inspired me to look up some CM quotes about habit, as she has such a poignant way of saying things!

"By education is a discipline, is meant the discipline of habits formed definitely and thoughtfully, whether habits of mind or body." (Volume 1, Preface)

"Habit is TEN natures! If I could but make others see with my eyes how much this saying should mean to the educator! How habit, in the hands of the mother, is as his wheel to the potter, his knife to the carver - the instrument by means of which she turns out the design she has already conceived in her brain. Observe, the material is there to begin with; his wheel will not enable the potter to produce a porcelain cup out of coarse clay; but the instrument is as necessary as the material or the design. It is unpleasant to speak of one's self, but if the reader will allow me, I should like to run over the steps by which I have been brought to look upon habit as the means whereby the parent may make almost anything he chooses of his child. That which has become the dominant idea of one person's life, if it be launched suddenly at another, conveys no very great depth or weight of meaning to the second person - he wants to get it by degrees, to see the steps by which the other has travelled. Therefore, I shall venture to show how I arrived at my present position, which is, from one of three possible points of view - The formation of habits IS education, and education IS the formation of habits." (Volume 1, p. 97)

Oh my, there is a wealth of information from CM on habit and training our dc and ourselves to have good habits! In fact, I am going to curl up with my CM books and read them again myself. Very inspiring - very true words. If you don't have any books on CM, do consider getting some! They are life changing. Have to go read.

In Christ,
Julie

[busymama]

Hello all you wonderful homeschooling mamas out there! I just wanted to chime in with my two cents, for whatever that's worth!
I must agree 100% with lmercon. lmercon, you are a wise woman!
Sometimes I think they just want to push us, to see how far they can get! Perhaps that is the situation here? Also perhaps with the necessary rules lovingly laid down, and him understanding that you do expect him to cheerfully do his best while obeying those rules or there WILL be consequences, he can bloom under your umbrella of love mixed with the proper discipline. And hopefully, the tension level for you will drop as well!
I hope and pray you are able to utilize the wonderful help available here on this forum, and lovingly establish the necessary rules for your ds, so that the homeschooling truly becomes the best blessing for you and your son.

[3sweeties]

I so love all the wisdom and encouragement on this board! Homeschooling is wonderful and rewarding, but can be a very difficult for all of us at times. Know that you are not alone, Katherine!

[MamaPajama]

We have had many days like that too. I can genuinely say for us the worst days have been when I've pushed DS too hard or for too long. That was before we started using curricula that had age/grade recommendations and I didn't realize I was teaching things that were above his head. I'm not at all saying that's what you have been doing. That was just my experience.

I didn't read through all of the responses yet, but have you tried taking several breaks during the day, or even year-round schooling with several breaks throughout the year? I've thought about doing 3 weeks on/1 week off OR 2 months on/2 weeks off, but our school year last year ended up with us just taking breaks whenever we felt like it or felt it was necessary. I think it worked out nicely that way.

I'll admit, I'm nervous to see how this year goes...especially when we get started. DS is VERY high strung and stubborn and so is his mom. We can easily butt heads if I'm not careful. I've debated on beginning our year at half-time and moving into full-time after a few weeks, but the problem with that is that we're starting in a couple of weeks and then taking several weeks off when our baby comes. So I think we'll just go ahead and start with full-time.

Anyhoo...sorry to make this post more about me than you! I hope you get the advice you need and that your year goes smoothly!

[inHistiming]

Well, here are my thoughts....

I have 3 children that are school age, and I don't think any of them would choose to 'do school' if they were given the choice. We actually are very relaxed in some respects. The way I deal with it is just by making it clear that _________ is required, not optional. There are plenty of complaints some days, but it must get done. We also school year-round, so it helps a lot that we can pretty much take off whenever we like and still get our work finished within the year.

I think the suggestions pp's gave were great...I may even use the suggestion for having a homework box for dc to use later in the evening to finish if he/she dawdles, instead of taking up time in your day. We've had our share of problems with that! I do, however, try to make sure that my dc have plenty of time to choose what else they want to learn. They all love to pick out books at the library on what they're interested in learning. I am quite often very surprised at what they bring home....believe it or not it's NOT always comic books and novels, though we have our share of those too. Most of the time, we are able to finish our work in the morning (if we get started on time) and the afternoons can be spent doing whatever we choose. It will take time, but I think if you stick to your guns (even though battling with them gets old, I know!) it won' be long before he sees how much time is being wasted and that he could actually be spending hours doing as he pleases. My oldest son had to see the school buses going by at 3 p.m several times while he still sat doing work before he really began to 'get it'.

It'll happen, so be encouraged.

[Kathleen]

I'm praying for you right now, Katherine! I know it can be so hard to be inthe middle of a difficult "battle" in training our kids!

I know that I was inspired by Julie's idea of setting up our school day a a couple years ago. We did exactly what she described here...and it made a HUGE difference in our days! They truly did flow along smoothly for the most part. Now, the challenge here was not that Grant did not want to do school. He really enjoyed it...but he did NOT have the habit of focusing on his work. Day-dreaming, thinking of other ideas when he was supposed to be doing ____,... He really would stretch out school to last FAR too long. It was frustrating to me, and then he wasn't having "fun" anymore either. This can still be a challenge for him, but he has improved by leaps and bounds!!

School and chores are NOT optional here either. Work ALWAYS comes before play. My little 2 are at the place where they really do LOVE school! They are not happy if it's not a school day for some reason during the school year. But, I know if I gave them the option to watch TV, eat snacks, and play with their siblings all day, OR do school...they wouldn't choose what's best. They get to do all of these things, but they follow the schedule that Mom made and prayed about when considering what's best for them. And they're thriving in the routine. If I were to be asking them what they wanted to do when, I'm sure I would be met with much whining, like, "But, Mooooom, I want to watch a TV show nooooow..." Having the plan in place for our days saved ME so much mental energy because they knew what to expect and I didn't have to constantly be dealing with questions about what was next or allowed when. They knew what was coming as well as I did and didn't balk at it. Whew!

Kathleen