Combining a 5th grader and 1st grader?

[kayrenee]

I started out this year with my girls all in different programs: 8th grader doing another curriculum; 5th grader doing CTC combined with another program (just call me Stupid on that one ); and 1st grader doing another program. I got overwhelmed very quickly and we ended up dropping everything before the holidays.

Now my oldest has begun doing high school work using Notgrass World History. Since we didn't get too far along in CTC, I'm debating whether to continue that with my 5th grader and find something else for the 1st grader, or whether to do Preparing and try to combine the younger girls in that. I also considered Little Hearts for the 1st grader. Then all three girls would essentially be doing the same time period, a world history overview, but each at their own level. I'm not concerned if it takes us longer than a year to do this.

What would the recommendation be from everyone here? And if you did separate programs for the 5th and 1st graders, how would you schedule your day?

I'm having visions of all three of us at the table together doing Bible, history and geography activities, and possibly art and poetry. We LOVE doing our studies together, and that was one of my oldest dd's complaints about doing a separate program earlier this year. Now that she's doing high school work, she still wants to do school with the rest of us at the table, and I do too. That's why I'd like us all to be on the same time period. Can you figure this out with me, and help me think long term? If we dropped CTC for now and did Preparing instead, what next? Or should we just stick it out with CTC? Renee loves the Guerber history book and likes her history notebook, too. Matter of fact, she's reading ahead of me in the history book. LOL. But I can't figure out how to include the 1st grader if we stay with CTC.

Oh, and I need to change my signature because the girls are 14, 11, and 7 now. Youngest is learning delayed by about a year, as she's had speech and language issues that have taken a long time to resolve, so that's why I'm still calling her a 1st grader.

[water2wine]

I think if your youngest has had delays Preparing would be too much and really even without delays I feel like it would be too much. I am thinking of my dd who is reading well and and writing well I still think Preparing would be way too much for her. So I would lean against not combining them in that program. If you really needed to combine them I would think Bigger might be your best bet. But in truth combining that large a gap is kind of hard because the guides are so skill focused really. If your 5th grader fits well into CTC I would just maybe continue with that on its own. It really is very full on its own. Then maybe look to see where your other daughter falls on the placement chart. Form what you are saying it seems either LHFHG or Beyond would be more where she might fit best perhaps. That still has you in three programs but your oldest is likely more independent in Notgrass and the parent time in CTC is really not like the amount in Preparing for instance. For together time perhaps you could combine some of the Bible or add your own reading together. We really find we still have that together feeling just adding Bible reading together and all doing HOD in our family. HTH I know others will have great advice just sharing what comes to my mind.

[kayrenee]

Thanks, Brenda. Yeah, I'm not sure which would be a better fit for her... Little Hearts or Beyond. One thing I like about Beyond is the copywork and spelling skills. I think those would be excellent for her. But would the history be too much? I'm thinking she could do the right side of Beyond... but not sure about the left side. I'll have to look at it again.

[my3sons]

Thanks for the update on your dc. I am wondering if you could take a fresh peek at the placement chart for your dc and share a bit about the first page of the chart with each of them in mind and where you think they fall individually? Then, I'd be glad to talk through combining and not combining options with you. The 7 year gap between the oldest and youngest makes it probably too difficult to combine all in 1 program, but that doesn't mean 2 of them couldn't be combined in a program, or all of them couldn't be together for some things. Many moms love to combine for HOD and many other moms love to do separate HOD programs with their dc, so both are possibilities. I think we can chat options and get it figured out all together if you could just share a tad more when you get the chance. Here's a link to the placement chart:
http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

In Christ,
Julie

[water2wine]

Well you know your child best and having one with delays myself I know how the fit really is an individual thing. For us the big thing about Beyond this year from LHFHG is the copywork and spelling. The history change is not such a huge jump except perhaps maybe the reading time might be a little more and the science gently more but really LA and math are more for the most part to us. We are not near close to done with Beyond though so others would know better. I will tell you this though, I wish my dd with CP had more of Beyond. She was so far behind on reading that was my big push and I felt like I did not want to over load her because copywork etc. was hard for her and I felt like let's just get reading solidified before we throw the rest at her. But I feel like she really would have benefited from a slower tour through Beyond. She is also reading and speech delayed. It's probably different than your dd becasue dhe simply is missing areas of her brain that function in that are but just putting it out there.

[kayrenee]

Oh, wow. I'm studying the placement chart pretty closely. I guess I didn't look at it that closely before, as I'm seeing some things I hadn't.

My 7yo fits squarely on the right side of Beyond. No question about that. The left side is still a bit questionable according to how the chart's worded, but when I look carefully at the first week sample lessons of Beyond, I'm pretty sure she can do all that and would LOVE it. The left side of Little Hearts is *too* easy for her (activities). So I think Beyond is probably the right choice for her, even if we have to take two days to do each day's lessons. (Does anyone do it that way?)

And continuing to think out loud here....

Looking at both the placement chart and sample lessons for Preparing, I think maybe I made a mistake trying to do CTC this year. I was so bent on doing the *time period* with her as a 5th grader so that we could the complete 4-year history cycle before high school, that I ended up pushing it too much. Maybe that's part of the reason I got overwhelmed with it. I'd thought it was just because I was combining CTC with another program (and no doubt that contributed), but in hindsight, I think parts of CTC were/are just too much for Renee. I recognized that and started skipping stuff left and right until there wasn't much of CTC left anymore. Does that make sense?

I think she can easier do the independent assignments in Preparing than in CTC, too. I was reading some of the other threads about CTC and seeing that many of your children do a lot of the CTC work independently; my girl can't. She was always asking me, "What do I do?" and I was holding her hand a LOT. (She's not the "academic" mature one that her older sister is.)

But she had really wanted to study animals this year, so that played a part in my decision, too. She actually does do her science mostly independently, or did until we stopped. Loves the science. Loves the Bible stories. Loves the Guerber book. So you can see the quandry I'm in.

Question: Can we eliminate the separate spelling program my dd is doing if she does Preparing? I'm thinking maybe yes, because she actually did quite well on that with her standardized test last year.

[water2wine]

Yeah it is hard when you pick by topic instead of where they are at skill wise. It is something that is going to kind of build on itself as you go through the program and then again next year if you decide to do RTR. Preparing is in itself a challenging program for them it really is the perfect lead into CTC because the skills needed are built. If I were in your position I think I might head in that direction. I know that I would use CTC next year so I would just feel blessed to have it on my shelf. But not everyone is that way and sometimes having something around makes people restless for something new instead. But if you like the peace of having next year settled that might be a good route.

Another thing for your 5th grader is you can do CTC science and then either do Preparing science next year or add something of your own. My dd doing CTC is actually doing Apologia Biology the 9th grade level slowly so we are skipping science for her. My kids in Preparing next year will do CTC as written and do the science in the program. So that is really flexible. On the spelling you are good to drop the other program. There is spelling int he form of dictation written into the program so I think you might find that it is really enough for you.
Also we are finding Beyond is really flexible. I have my young first grader and on age second grader doing it together with no problems at all. Both are done with phonics but my youngest was only 3/4 though TRL when we started.

HTH

[my3sons]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here so much, Kayrenee! That really helps, and I feel better about kicking around some ideas here now. There are a few different options running through my head here for you to ponder. First, if you find separating them to be be something you'd consider, then I think that you have a good idea to do Beyond with your little one, and half-speed would be just fine, though you will probably want to do phonics/reading daily. We did half-speed with LHFHG and loved that. Then, we did the first part of Beyond half-speed too, and at that point my little guy was ready for full-speed in Beyond. That pacing worked well for him. You could just begin half-speed with your dd, and then either continue at that pace for several years, or go to full-speed at any point with her. I think she would love Beyond as much as our dc have.

For your 5th. grader, I think you could do PHFHG, and she'd probably enjoy that very much. It sounds like a good fit for her, and it is just an awesome overview of history to do. We loved Grandpa's Box especially and liked it paired with CHOW. It was great prep for CTC, and now CTC is smooth going because my ds has grown into being able to do the things independently he is supposed to in CTC. I don't think he could have done CTC last year. Since your dd is 11 yo, you could add in the Extension Package for her to do independently too. When you look at the titles for PHFHG's extension package, I think it's helpful to weigh whether a child can truly read the titles independently and do the suggested follow-ups on his own, since it is not meant to be another thing for us as parents to have to do. They are excellent books, but it's just something to consider. As far as the science, you could have her finish out CTC's, or if you aren't far into it, I'd really consider doing PHFHG's science instead. You could go either way on this really, we just enjoyed doing CTC's science along with the ancients history as it was just such a great meshing of history and science. The science in PHFHG is intentionally easier than CTC's science though, so you can weigh what you'd like to do there. We've been comfortable eliminating additional spelling in PHFHG. We did only dictation, and my ds (who had speech therapy for several years and initially struggled with spelling) has become an excellent speller overall. Once and awhile, like when writing an item on our grocery list for some odd reason, he spells things incorrectly, but most of the time mistakes are rare. He is really having to study hard now for dictation, but I think that's just making him do better and better with his spelling over time. Dictation has to be given a long while to truly make a difference though. So, you'd want to plan for it to take some real time to benefit dd's spelling in big ways. You'll know best what you want to do there, as it's easy to add spelling it that is what you'd like.

For your oldest, she could continue with Notgrass, and if that's going well, I'd probably keep doing that. Otherwise, CTC with extensions and additional LA/math could be used. I do think all 3 of them could do DITHOR together, and you'd just choose appropriate levels of books for each of them. That would be a neat together time.

O.k. - so that was sort of Option 1 I was thinking of. Option 2 would be if you really do want to combine, and that is first and foremost in your decision. If so, I'll be honest that there's quite a spread there in age, which makes it tough to combine with any program easily. If you were going to try to combine, there are 2 ideas I had - either to combine your middle dd with your older dd, or to combine her with your younger dd.

If you combine her with your older, you'd need to do it in CTC. Your older would do the Extension Package, and you'd know going into it that middle dd would need some help easing into it to be able to do it. She could do the right side of PHFHG for her LA/Math, so that would help with that in an easy way. You probably know if this would work well or not, as you know how these 2 would work together, and know as well if your dd would be able to grow into CTC quite smoothly. In this scenario, little dd would still do Beyond, probably half-speed.

Option 3 would be having oldest dd keep doing Notgrass or do CTC with extensions, etc., but combining instead middle dd with youngest dd. I am thinking that you could do this in Bigger Hearts. You could have the 2 of them do the left side of BHFHG together, as well as the Science and Storytime from the right side. Your middle dd could do the Extension package, which includes history and science titles. This would be a stretch for your youngest dd, so you'd need to know that going in and adjust as necessary to compensate for that. Youngest dd could still do the right side of Beyond for her Basics.

In all of the options, you could DITHOR with everyone, just picking appropriate books and using the Level 2/3 for your youngest, Level 4/5 for your middle dd, and Level 6/7/8 for your oldest.

My favorite option is the first one because I feel it meets each of your dc's needs so well. No one is stretched too far, nor is anyone going to need major tweaking to beef things up either. We did Beyond and PHFHG together last year, and found it to be very manageable. I have a toddler in the mix too, but you do have one older dd to consider as well. Here are some links where ladies shared their schedules that may be helpful:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2093
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=95&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

Only you can know best what option would work best for your goals and in your home, but hopefully this gives you some things to ponder that may help you arrive at a plan that fits well for your family. Please continue to ask questions here until you have a peace about your decision. I'd love to hear any thoughts you have about these options after you've had some time to think if you get the chance. Praying for you to have clarity about placement.

In Christ,
Julie

[kayrenee]

Thanks, Julie! For the first time, I'm thinking it *might* actually be easier to separate them. In either of the two combining scenarios you suggested, I'm seeing myself scanning the pages, trying to figure out what to give to whom, assigning books, etc. Yikes. This is exactly what I ran into while trying to combine two different programs for the same student earlier this year!

I'll investigate those scheduling threads....

[Carrie]

kayrenee,

The ladies are doing a great job of tossing around options with you. So, I'll just pop on to say that It really resonated with me when you shared that your daughter was liking parts of CTC but was just not able to do the things independently that were scheduled to be done independently. That makes total sense as to why you'd end up skipping things and also explains why she'd need you for more than you'd planned.

I always am amazed at what clarity often comes to moms as they take a look at the placement chart, which they've often looked over several times before, but the difference is in the moment that they really "see" where their kiddos truly are in each area of the chart (especially on the first page of the chart). In all honesty, it happened just that way to me. I was very tied to the "history cycle" for years with my oldest son, and I let it run the decisions I made for him in many areas. When I finally let go of thinking that he had to have been through the history cycle once, twice, or even three times by high school, I felt incredible freedom at really seeing for the first time where he would fit best in each individual area.

With that being said, from what you've shared so far, I'm leaning toward your daughter doing Preparing Hearts with extensions (if those suit her well) and doing as much of the language arts as you can (to cover your writing, dictation, narration, poetry, etc). That would definitely allow you to drop your spelling program. Just know that dictation is a slow burn and can take a year to get really comfortable with and see steady progress. But, we couldn't be happier with the progress my boys have made through dictation, and my oldest has been doing dictation since third grade. He's now in 8th grade.

I think you'd find that Preparing Hearts can be fairly independent in many ways and is a great stepping stone in training a child in more independence. It makes CTC a whole different program, when the child is prepared to do what is asked of them without endless help from you. Then, once you'd finished Preparing, you could head into CTC (most likely just picking back up where you left off, rather than repeating).

As far as your next little one in line goes, I think doing Beyond Little Hearts slowly is a great option. With my younger ones, I've found that short consistent spurts of time each day with subjects on their level go a long way. So, you can easily do left side one day with right side the next (except for doing phonics daily). It's good to know going in that the retention in the history side won't be quite as high as if you did it daily, however when we did Little Hearts at half-speed with my little guy he was just thrilled to have me to himself and have his "own" school on his level (so retaining every bit of the history wasn't the highest on my list for him at that point). We just enjoyed school and our time together and knew that he was progressing by leaps and bounds in his 3R's. Then, we found the next year that he was ready to go full-speed 4 days a week. So, we did.

Anyway, just a few more things to think about as you ponder your options. Let us know if we can help in any way.

Blessings,
Carrie

[kayrenee]

I always am amazed at what clarity often comes to moms as they take a look at the placement chart, which they've often looked over several times before, but the difference is in the moment that they really "see" where there kiddos truly are in each area of the chart (especially on the first page of the chart). In all honesty, I was very tied to the "history cycle" for years with my oldest son, and I let it run the decisions I made for him in many areas. When I finally let go of thinking that he had to have been through the history cycle once, twice, or three times by high school, I felt incredible freedom at really seeing for the first time where he would fit best in each individual area.

Bingo. I did make the decision today to go with Preparing and Beyond. And you hit the nail on the head here about being tied to the history cycle. I was reading another thread earlier that you'd responded to, and something you said there really resonated with me: "Over time, I have slowly come to terms with the fact that completing the history cycle is not as important as making sure your kiddos are correctly placed skill-wise." This is EXACTLY what's happened here.

I think you'd find that Preparing Hearts can be fairly independent in many ways, and is a great stepping stone in training a child in more independence.

I was thinking that after the first few days or so, I might try having her do the Psalms (Bible study) on her own. My oldest dd does her own Bible study and has private devotions without prompting, but this is really missing with my middle girl.

So, you can easily do left side one day with right side the next (except for doing phonics daily). It's good to know going in that the retention in the history side won't be as high as if you did it daily, however when we did Little Hearts at half-speed with my little guy he was just thrilled to have me to himself and have his "own" school on his level, so retaining every bit of the history wasn't the highest on my list for him at that point.

I know my little gal will love having her own special time. Thus far we've been pretty hit and miss in most things, and she feels left out. That's very obvious. Not that I don't have a curriculum to use with her, but it doesn't seem very efficient for me to use, and so I usually procrastinate or avoid it altogether. And when we're all working together, she's sometimes able to do some activities with her big sisters (during our school time and elsewhere), but there's a lot she can't do. And she doesn't have any young siblings to occupy herself with while I do other stuff, either. I know she often feels like the third wheel in many ways.

I'm not sure I could get away with doing Beyond just half time. If my dd recognizes that as HER school, HER special time, she's going to expect it every day.

[kayrenee]

Also, I just wanted to mention that I think my oldest two combine better than the younger two. I started this thread with the *hope* that there's a way, but I just don't see it. That's okay... the more I think through this, the more I think there are better ways to combine our times together.

[Carrie]

kayrenee,

After spending literally years planning on how I would combine my kiddos for years to come (I had plans mapped out through graduation for even my unborn children using Sonlight), it took time for me to come around to the idea that I could separate my kiddos and perhaps be even more sane. My kiddos are each 3 and 1/2 to 4 years apart from one another, and the work it was taking to combine was honestly harder than what I do now to separate them.

For us, separating our kiddos was like a breath of fresh air. I got to see each child as an individual, and I could finally see their true strengths and weaknesses. My oldest child began to thrive, but even more importantly my second child came into his own. He'd been in the shadow of the oldest for awhile, so this was a big change. My last two have never been combined, but they each love their special time with me.

This is not to say that combining doesn't work with HOD, as it does and many moms do it so well. The decision on whether to combine or not honestly can change from year to year and is dependent on the changing dynamics within a family, the progress kiddos have made, and the season of life that you as the teacher are in. We have moms that move in and out of combining depending on all of these factors, so no one way is the right way. I just know that I had never considered "not combining", and when I did it changed my life.

We do still choose some things out of each guide to do together. For example, when my oldest piloted CTC last year, I saved the Genesis study and the Geography for him to do this year with my next guy in line whose doing CTC now. I do still read aloud a storytime from one of the guides to everybody (at lunch). My CTC guy shares his poetry with all of us. He also narrates to his younger brother from science sometimes. We sing the Scripture music from at least one guide with everyone before we eat. This year we're doing the Philippians 2 CD from CTC. Other years we've done the Hide 'Em in Your Heart or the Hymns with everyone. So, you can choose those things you enjoy doing together.

As far as Beyond goes, I try to cuddle up and enjoy the left side of the guide in one sitting. It goes very quickly that way, and that's about the maximum amount of truly uninterrupted time I can get with my one in Beyond before the 3 year old needs me.

For Preparing, I found that doing the left side in groups of 2 or 3 boxes at a time worked well with me checking in as my son worked. I had him start all of the boxes on the left side of Preparing (except Storytime) on his own, and then I jumped in to ask the questions, guide, or do the follow-ups (after he'd already had a chance to look over what was being asked of him).

Over time, he learned to do the timeline, vocabulary,the geography practice (and then he'd show me), the research (and I'd ask him the questions after he thought he knew the answers from his research), the independent study box, and much of the history project on his own. I was always present to do the follow-up in the Reading About History box as that really needs interaction. I was comfortable with this plan, as my son had been through LHTH, LHFHG, Beyond, and Bigger with me by his side and was ready to branch out. I'm sure your daughter can eventually do much of this on her own too, after she is more comfortable with the routine of Preparing. In essence it's "preparing" her for the more independent work that's to come in CTC.

If, on the other hand, you're looking for more hand-holding for your daughter, then you can follow the plans with you doing the leading and doing all of the reading aloud and going through the directions with her. Either way works, depending on what your goals for that child are for this year.

I'm excited that you'll get to use Beyond and Preparing Hearts, as we have thoroughly enjoyed those guides ourselves with our own boys. We pray they may be a blessing to you on your homeschool journey.

Blessings,
Carrie

[kayrenee]

Just wanting to say thank you, Carrie and everyone else, for your help and encouragement.

[my3sons]

Thanks for sharing your plans here, Kayrenee! I love to see a good plan come together. There's been some great dialogue here. I can only think of one other tip that helped my ds during his PHFHG year, and also helped him get ready for the increased independence in CTC. That was to have him use the PHFHG guide as his own, and train him to carefully follow the directions in each box, checking each box off as he completed it. As I used to feel like the guide was mine and mine only , and I don't like marks in it (silly, I know ), this did not occur to me until later. Once my ds began using the manual along with me, he was able to stop waiting for me to finish with the other dc. He also loves to check off the boxes and see he's moving through his day and is ever near finishing it. I think he sees it as a worthy accomplishment. I can also clearly see what he's done with a glance at the corners of the boxes. Enjoy PHFHG and Beyond - we did so much when we did it last year, and I think you will too!

In Christ,
Julie