Help!...Math!!!

[3musketeers]

Ladies,
I could use some math advice.

My oldest son who will be 10 in the fall has used Saxon since K. He has done well until this past year (we are in book 5/4). We are at the end of the year and are just now half way through the book. I have been taking it slow and reviewing what he needs. We have done lots of the supplemental in the back. I know alot of it is the jump from work sheet type problems to copying the problem on a seperate piece of paper.

I guess I have a two fold concern. I feel soooo incompetent to teach math, much less know how to help him as he struggles. Second, this is the first year he has really "hated" (sorry for the strong word) math. I may have "Pollyanna" thinking. I know he will struggle with certain subjects. But I am sad to see him so discouraged each day with math. He will work really hard on his work and still miss half the problems. I looked at TT at the book fair. I know Carrie uses Singapore. I have already considered changing to a more independent study (something with a teacher other than me) for older grades. It would give me more time to work with my younger ds on his math and be more of a helper than main teacher to my older ds.

What are your experiences with Saxon? I would love to hear from Carrie, Julie, or any former teachers out there. What's the word on Teaching Textbooks? I do have a younger son who is truly math minded. Would he do better with Singapore than Saxon? I was reading some past posts about how Singapore really has the student understand math.

Sorry so long. I'm just feeling kinda disheartened. It's been an upward battle in math this year. I'm sure you guys have had your own battles as well.

Blessings,
3musketeers

[netpea]

I've only used Singapore so I can't compare them but someone will chime in soon I'm sure.

[Alison in KY]

I haven't used Saxon in several years, and I've never used TT. However, I have heard that with TT you could probably get by with a grade level ahead of where you are. I'm sure that doesn't work for everyone, but in general I think that's what people are doing.

I hate that you are struggling with Saxon. I know, from reading a lot, that it's one math program that has been around for years. A lot of people I know turn to it for upper elem., middle school math.

If it helps at all, we have went through many math programs, trying to find what worked for me and my kids. I've learned to just never say never. I began on Singapore but it didn't offer enough instruction for me. I tried it for two years, but we just hit to many road blocks with it. When my oldest was 8 I finally switched to Math U See. I love that it is organized in a way that makes sense to me. However, even though I can't recommend it highly enough, currently my oldest hates it . He's getting into multiplication, and putting that to use in word problems has been tough on him. He thinks he wants to switch, but I feel like for now that he won't be any happier with something new...that the problem is the area of math we are covering. He's good at whining, so whenever he's hit an area that is difficult for him he gets easily frustrated and hates it. Then in a few months when he has it figured out everything will be okay.

If he's just discouraged and you think it's the subject area then I'd maybe stick with it..but if he's reduced to tears and ready for a change then go for it. www.homeschoolreviews.comis a great site for looking at reviews.

God bless,
Alison

[inHistiming]

I had the same problem, kind of, with my son last year. He did 54 and it would sometimes take him hours to complete...it was not the subject matter for him. He did NOT like copying the problems down, and he always missed a few due to copying them down wrong. I have since discovered that Saxon has workbooks. So, if you like Saxon that may be an option. I really like how thorough it is and we may be going back to it...Singapore doesn't seem to have enough instruction for me either. I also like the looks of Math-U-See and it comes highly recommended by fellow home schoolers here. That may be worth checking out.

[3musketeers]

Thank you Ladies for listening. I think sometimes we moms need to think outloud to other homeschoolers who understand. I'm thankful to have found a board that is so encouraging.

Alison, thank you especially for this:

If he's just discouraged and you think it's the subject area then I'd maybe stick with it..but if he's reduced to tears and ready for a change then go for it. http://www.homeschoolreviews.comis a great site for looking at reviews.

I spent sometime looking at the reviews on TT and Saxon on this board. I also found some helpful links on this board for those who are having some toubles with Saxon. Sooo helpful! I'm so glad you told me about it. I'm adding it to my favs. I like how the site seems very unbiased in the reviews given.

After a heart to heart with my dh, web researching on Alison's homeschoolreview site , and listening to another dear friend's advice. I think Alison and InHistiming are right to stick it out. I think math is just supposed to be hard sometimes. We are going to start the book over. I think he will find it as a good review. He's trying to have a good attitude about it. We're going to take a break and work some facts with flashcards and Calculadders first.

Thanks again for letting me share,
3musketeers

[Carrie]

3musketeers,

I'm sorry I'm so late to the thread here. We're gone at convention right now in NC, and so we're getting to the board as time allows. I would hesitate to put your child back through the same Saxon level that he's already been having a tough time doing, as repeating material that didn't go well the first time around can be so discouraging. I'm not saying that you need to change math programs, however redoing is a tough way to go for both parents and child.

If your child is having a tough time with Saxon at this point and it's been an ongoing area of concern all year, it may be time to look at a switch for math. I would at least lean toward giving your son the Singapore placement test to see where he actually places within Singapore. No matter whether you end up using Singapore or not, it will give you an interesting look at how well he solves problems and how well he thinks through solutions mathematically.

Saxon is a program that is almost the complete opposite of Singapore. Saxon spirals and repeats similar concepts day after day, reviewing almost everything on a daily basis. It focuses on repetition and doing quite a volume of problems daily. Singapore is a mastery program, digging more deeply into individual concepts for a certain length of time and then moving onto a new concept, only reviewing in between concepts. Singapore has fewer problems of a higher level than just about any math program out there. The lessons will take less than half of the time that you're spending on Saxon each day and will work toward kiddos thinking mathematically (whereas Saxon teaches the Saxon way of doing math).

Here's a link to the singapore placement test that would be worth giving at this point, just to provide you with more feedback on your child's actual math understanding level: http://www.singaporemath.com

Then, click on placement in the tool bar at Singapore and select 3A U.S. Edition test. I'd begin there and see how your son does.

Blessings,
Carrie

[3musketeers]

Carrie,
Thank you for your reply. I am going to take your advice and give him the placement test on Monday. I think that the spiral method is part of my ds's issue. I'm glad you pinpointed that. He seems to do well with the supplemental lessons that cover only one math skill. But you know how Saxon fills there work sheets with many previous concepts and only 2 or 3 problems from the day's lesson.

To be honest I have been afraid of Singapore. How easy would it be for Mom's who are sooooo not math minded to teach? Especially in headed toward the upper grades? I've also been worried that I have the "grass is greener" state of mind. So I have tried to stick it out. I'm not secure in my understanding of different methods of teaching math and what would work with my ds's learning style. I'm glad to get advice from all my elementery and math teacher friends. I am not opposed to looking at new options.

I'm also with you on not starting the book over. I have tried to avoid this since Jan. I have tried doing one lesson over 2 days with me giving the lesson one day and the the Dive CD the next. I have him do the odds and supplemental then evens. I have also stopped altogether at times to drill facts and review things he is having trouble with. He actually understands the steps to working the problems. He can get them when I have him correct his work without my help. He is having alot of trouble paying attention to details when he does his work and tests. I know at this level, when we are going from worksheets to copying the problems, we will have these issues. But it's almost like he is overwhelmed with all the details. He also still skip counts on multiplication facts as opposed to having them memorized. (Although he is the fastest skip counter I have ever seen ).

I equate it to phonics. Sometimes a child can read material but not comprehend a word. I feel my ds is working the steps, but has no idea what they are actually doing. Saxon crams to many concepts together for his comparmentalized and concrete mind to figure out (he is alot like me). My other ds loves math and has a great grasp of the abstract numbers within numbers idea of math (don't you love my very nonmath vocab. ).

Sorry so long. I soooo appreciate your experience and wisdom on this one.

I'll let you know how the placement test turns out.

Blessings,
3musketeers

[Mamma Joy]

Hi there,
I thought I'd throw this out. I am absolutely challenged when it comes to math! When the kids got older it was SO frustrating when they had a problem and I made it worse! They were upset and frustrated, I was upset, frustrated overwhelmed. We tried everything (even Mommy going for tutoring! ) Then I found Rod and Staff math
It is set up just like Saxon in it's approach. There is constant review on the different topics, and if there is a problem In the books if you get the lesson where the lesson was first taught so that you can go back to identify the problem. The difference is in HOW it is taught. It is line upon line, precept upon precept. Easy to understand language, Very practical and then all the practical lessons are linked together to solve equations.We went back and did review in each lesson that they had problems with.There are a good chunk of problems (5 - 10)to work out so the lesson and method stick in the childs mind , then review. It takes approximately 10 minutes to go through the lesson and about 20 - 30 minutes to go through the problems every day. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter largely dependent on how many times they drop their pencil, look out the window, need a drink.... Really though each of my children understand it so well, and their grades so rapidly jumped high ( We have to hand in packets of work a few times a year here for evaluation when the kids get into the higher grades) that the superintendent of the homeschoolers actually made them come in to do tests in front of him and he is recommending R&S to other homeschoolers (christian or not) to try these books if they have difficulty because of the way they explain the process. My oldest daughter is 15 and has finished all her maths except for calculus. Which has to be taken at the college level, but she is not old enough yet. 2 years to go. Our 13 year old has one more year to go. Our 10 year old is not far behind, you know the funny thing about it is Mom is understanding it too. ( and you know what they say about old dogs and new tricks.....)
Anyhow I just wanted to throw that idea out there, as I know how it feels to be beating your head against the brick wall. If you google Rod and Staff there is a site that will show you samples of the textbooks. In comparison it is no further behind than Saxon. They are doing Algebra, Geometry,and such in grade 8. If purchasing in Canada (where we live it can be purchased through their Canadian distributor CMCO Publications)The other benefit is it is God honoring in it's text too.
I hope this helps.

Blessings,
Joyanna

[3musketeers]

Joyanna,
I appreciate the description of R and S math. We use their grammar and love that.

I have been reading reviews on R&S, BJU, MathUsee, and ofcourse Saxon.
I've also been looking at Singapore , taking Carrie's advice. Just when I had decided to stick it out with Saxon, I think Carrie opened my mind to looking again for another curriculum. Dh and I went on a date night over the weekend and discussed it again. I am leaning to a traditional program like Saxon. I think I would like to look at a mastery program as opposed to spiral. I also know I will need help (something on the computer like Dive or a DVD teacher). My hope was to stay with one scope and sequence up into the HS years. But I'm learning every year takes on it's new challenges and sometimes you have to be flexible to overcome those.

All right I may have to start a new thread. "Help me choose a new math curriculum" I think I need to get my hands on somethings. If anyone has info on Mathusee and BJU I would also appreciate that.

Joyanna I will be sure to check out R&S.

Blessings,
3musketeers

[Carrie]

3musketeers,

I can empathize with your frustrations over your son getting bogged down in trying to remember all of the math steps and then losing the focus as to why he's doing what he's doing. My oldest son has had a very similar experience this past couple of years, after always doing well in math and being a good mathematical thinker in the past. However, he never loved doing repetitive problems and was less than enthused about writing them out. Overwhelming assigned problems caused him to bog down and math to go on much too long. We both would end up frustrated!

In our quest for the "perfect" math program we did switch him often to a different program, so I can understand your desire to stick it out with Saxon. I agree that switching math programs should not be done often and that if possible it's best to stick with one or two programs in the K-6 years. I'm embarassed to say that with my oldest son we did a year of BJU for K, a year of ABeka for grade 1, a year of Math-U-See for grade 2, a year of Strayer-Upton in grade 3, Modern Curriculum Press and Time for Learning in grades 4-5, and Teaching Textbooks in grades 6-7. We never used Singapore with this particular child of mine, and I think it would have been a breath of fresh air for him in we had. By the time Singapore had their U.S. Edition done through 6A/6B my son was pretty much beyond Singapore, so he never had the opportunity to use it.

With my second son, we have used Singapore from the beginning. He is also mathy and is currently heading into Grade 5. I have yet to have any math struggles with my second child. We've had no tears over math, no complaints over the length of the math lesson, no dreading of math time (from mom or child), and have seen an incredible advance in our son's ability to thinking mathematically and solve problems (especially this past year in 4A).

If you are considering switching at all, I want to recommend that you make sure you're not switching to something that feels similar to what you're already doing. Saxon would be most similar to ABeka, Rod and Staff, or Modern Curriculum Press. BJU and Math-U-See would still be more traditional but in a different way from Saxon and its counterpart spiraling drill-type programs. Singapore would be in a class by itself in comparison to other U.S. based math programs.

Blessings,
Carrie

[3musketeers]

Carrie,
I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your help. I do have another quick question about Singapore. How easy is it for a very math deficient mom to teach? I did see something about a Home Instructor's Guide.

Lot's of praying and researching going on here . I'm going to try to go look at some of these programs at our local used HS curriculum store.

Thank you again,
3musketeers

[my3sons]

Carrie,
I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your help. I do have another quick question about Singapore. How easy is it for a very math deficient mom to teach? I did see something about a Home Instructor's Guide.

Lot's of praying and researching going on here . I'm going to try to go look at some of these programs at our local used HS curriculum store.

Thank you again,
3musketeers

I think Singapore is easy to teach because it doesn't get bogged down in numerous steps to complete problems. Everything in Singapore has a purpose - even the pictures in the books. Taking time to really look at the pictures and discuss them as the textbook instructs is very helpful. I have learned a lot from Singapore's methods myself. I know I would have been much stronger in estimation and mental math myself, had I used Singapore growing up. There is little need to "drill" because Singapore's method of teaching really explains the thinking behind the figuring. It's hard to explain - but the way they explain it gives a mental picture of how to get to the answer - minus the endless Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, .... Step 10!!! I've seen in other programs. It helps kids "cut to the chase". With Singapore, they can clearly see the most efficient way to attack a problem, and they don't seem to need it spelled out. While I am still sitting with my scratch paper and going through the "steps" I learned to do math, my ds is often done, having not used scratch paper at all, with the right answer - and he is not a mathy student really, although he has always really liked numbers.

If I were you, I would give the placement test, order the textbook/workbook sets you need, and start off with just those for a solid month or two. If you are wanting more guidance, you could then order the Home Instructor's Guide. Give yourself and your child time to learn the Singapore way of thinking, and it'll click. Also, there are fewer problems, it can be completed in a relatively short amount of time, and it has the #1 standardized testing scores in the world. It's certainly worth a shot, and will be a nice change of pace for something different.

In Christ,
Julie

[3musketeers]

Julie,
Thank you for the encouragement on Singapore. I have never heard it explained like that. I have printed the placement test and had planned on giving it Mon. I had forgotten it was a holiday...oops. I am headed out to our local HS used book store later today to actually get my hands on some math text books. (not to buy)

After alot of online research and this from Carrrie:

If you are considering switching at all, I want to recommend that you make sure you're not switching to something that feels similar to what you're already doing. Saxon would be most similar to ABeka, Rod and Staff, or Modern Curriculum Press. BJU and Math-U-See would still be more traditional but in a different way from Saxon and its counterpart spiraling drill-type programs. Singapore would be in a class by itself in comparison to other U.S. based math programs.

I think I can safely say I have ruled out everything but Singapore, BJU, and staying with Saxon (but continuing from where we are and moving slowly as opposed to going back to the beginning.) I was interested in Mathusee, but I have a friend who hit a brick wall in Gamma when the multiplication got to difficult. She ended up buying Delta then Epsilon, and did the first 1/3 of each book. Now she's stuck and using R&S until she can get her 5th graders up to the upper level concepts in Mathusee. I decided I did not want to worry with all of that.

I appreciate this board soooo much!!!

Blessings,
3musketeers

[LeAnna]

Hi Julie,

I don't know if I should have started a new topic with this or not. But I have some questions about Singapore. I go up and down with whether or not to stick with Singapore. We had a semi good year with my older and a not so good year with my younger. Both were using Earlybird with LHFHG. My concern is, that if there are 3 problems on a page, and I have to basically do the first 2 problems with them, because they aren't getting it... How can I know that they are getting it? Does that make sense?:lol: We finished both books, yet I feel like they didn't really master anything, or understand it. They didn't quite get time, and they didn't get money at all and the addition and subtraction problems were a bit confusing for them, because they seemed more algebraic. I was surprised that SM didn't really really focus on just counting pennies, and counting dimes, etc. It seemed a bit abstract to me, and the kids were confused.
Anywho, I looked at the placement chart and because they didn't really understand parts of SM, they would place back in the same book again. So, I don't know what to do. I was looking at CLP Math and it seems to be more of what I am looking for.... a more gentle approach. But, I don't know what the pros and cons are of it. Anyone know?
I guess my question is, should I stick it out, and hope that my kids start to understand it more, or should I take a break and try something else?
So sorry, 3musketeers... I hope I didn't throw you off of what you are planning. I know Singapore works really well for a lot of people.

LeAnna

[3musketeers]

Leanna,
No worries. You're not throwing me off here. Come join the encouragement I have recieved on my math quest. I know these ladies will have answers for you .

I'm back from hands on time with the text books...more praying!!!

Blessings,
3musketeers