Singapore Math Questions

[Daisy]

Math is pretty much torture for us. The kids hate it. It takes too long. I've used R&S with my daughter through 3rd grade. Then we switched to CLE Math 4 this year. I thought it would help her to have it be consummable. I THOUGHT it would take less time. She has 4 pages of math per day (plus speed drills) and she averages 15-20 minutes per page. She stares at the floor and is distracted by everything.

My first grader's CLE Math 1 (3 pages per day and over 50 problems) is taking 35-40 minutes per day. I'm worried we are going to buy HOD and wind up taking forever just to get math done everyday.

So is that normal? Shouldn't first grade math still be fun? He did Singapore Earlybird in Kindergarten and loved it. I wish I had just stuck with it.

1) Would it take that long with Sinapore math?
2) It looks like my son would probably be able to go into the 2A next year based on my looking through the placement. My daughter might have to go back to 4A since she couldn't complete the placement tests using the mental math (she'd work each problem and take all day doing it). Is this normal for older kids to have to back up?
3) Would I have to push her to finish 5B by the end of 5th grade or is it okay for her to continue to work the math a year behind grade level?
4) Is Singapore good for kids who are only average in math?
5) We are a language arts family. Comes easy to us. I can handle higher math but teaching it might be another ball game. What do you all go to for higher math after Singapore?

[dale1088]

Anxiously watching for replies to this post Daisy. My dd is in 3rd grade, pulled from ps in December and I put her in Singapore 2A mostly because in ps they did not teach add/subt with regrouping yet. So I knew I had to back up. We raced through the first half and as soon as we got to the new concept (regrouping) the tears and frustration began. I had to figure working a grade level behind is okay because not all math programs teach everything in the same sequence. You can move quickly through what they do already know and more slowly through the new stuff. But for us Math will have to be a constant, daily thing. No breaks.

Again, eager to hear these wise women's thoughts on this!!!

[8arrows]

1) Would it take that long with Sinapore math? No, my first grader did MUS Alpha and Singapore this year. I would guess he spent about 20 minutes tops. However, math is easy for him. We are currently adding in Challenging World Problems as he already finished MUS. I am not going to use MUS with him next year as Singapore is going so well. It really has been pretty painless.
2) It looks like my son would probably be able to go into the 2A next year based on my looking through the placement. My daughter might have to go back to 4A since she couldn't complete the placement tests using the mental math (she'd work each problem and take all day doing it). Is this normal for older kids to have to back up? Yes. My daughter is in 5th grade this year just finishing up 4A. Math is hard for her, and we are just taking it as she is able.
3) Would I have to push her to finish 5B by the end of 5th grade or is it okay for her to continue to work the math a year behind grade level? I wouldn't push. Many people use Singapore a year "behind". Just a note, when I got to Singapore 5 and 6 (with my older boys), I found the teacher's guides to be helpful. I did not need them before this.
4) Is Singapore good for kids who are only average in math? It is working very well for my 1st (math proficient) and 2nd grade (very normal math skills) boys. My 5th grade daughter does struggle with it. I will probably use Teaching Textbooks with her next year plus a lower level of Challenging Word Problems. I think she needs a year of success. Then we will come back to Singapore before heading back to Teaching Textbooks for pre-algebra. With her past math history, I do not forsee putting her in pre-algebra before 8th grade--thus the strange schedule with her.
5) We are a language arts family. Comes easy to us. I can handle higher math but teaching it might be another ball game. What do you all go to for higher math after Singapore? We have used MUS pre-algebra and Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1 and 2. In the future I will just use Teaching Textbooks.

[Kathleen]

Now, I'm not at pro-level here...but I can tell you what I know so far. We switched from Saxon to Singapore this year. My ds had finished Saxon 2 and we started with Singapore 2A this year. I'd say that it's normal to have to "back up" when switching to Singapore from another program. I was wanting to use a math program that took up less of our day. Math comes easily to my son and we were spending at least an hour on math every day. I found Carrie's reasoning to use Singapore in the following thread to be exactly what I was looking for in a math program. viewtopic.php?t=112

And, as we've used it this year we've been able to spend about 20 per day on math including the hands-on activity. (Except for the "war" game where we multiplied our cards to see who won each hand. That one was tons of fun and we kept playing for fun after school. ) And, I really feel like he understands math and is learning a lot! So, for us it's a perfect fit and is meeting our needs.

I wouldn't guarantee that it will take away your issue if it's just dawdling. I've seen Carrie and/or Julie say that their policy is to spend 20 min on math with their child. They set the timer. And, if the child is giving good, honest effort for the 20 min they stop with math for the day and pick up there the next day whether the "lesson" is done or not. If the child is giving less than acceptable effort, then the math goes into a stack that they'll work on instead of play time in the evening. For a child that doesn't enjoy math, knowing that it will be done after 20 min of good effort should be encouraging, and hopefully help with the dreading/dawdling.

HTH!
Kathleen

[Vicki]

We use a fun math program from the UK called MEP math. It has really worked great to get those wheels turning in the brain, and it's most always fun! So far, we haven't had any frustrating days, but like anything else, there's always the possibility of one in the future!

We also do some of the Ray's Elementary book from google books at night. We do these problems orally, and they seem to really help. I should also add that we do a page of Abeka math each day as a "warm-up" for the MEP lesson. I guess that's a lot of math, but it really is helping us. It's not really that much at all. I just tear out a page of the Abeka and he works that first. I don't really give direction for this, as it is for the grade below his level. He is getting ready to start the next book, and it will probably go along the same way. I've heard that after Abeka 3 math there is a great leap in difficulty, so I don't know what we'll use for warm-up time.

We also do math journal time on Fridays. For this we read a Stuart Murphy book and then he does some kind of drawing or worksheet I've found online to go along with the topic. When we studied symmetry in MEP, we went outside with a camera and took pictures of things we saw that showed line symmetry. This kind of thing really seems to cement the reading or lesson.

Don't know if that's what you're looking for, but we're really happy with what we use, and it seems to work fine with no complaints. I don't ever say words like "this will be hard" or "I had trouble with this when I was little" or "I hate doing equalities" or anything like that. What I'm getting at is that I don't try to ever let any negativity slip into our day with math. My little guy has no idea that math could ever be difficult. I don't let him think that. I let him know that we can always step back and look at things in a different way and think things through. That really helps a lot sometimes, and maybe that's all that's needed. Or sometimes you just have to put it to the side to let them stew on it for awhile and allow them time to make the discovery themselves. I don't allow any use of calculators at all, either. If he wants to play with one, I've occasionally allowed it, but it's not for school lesson time--KWIM?

Try to find ways to make math fun if at all possible. Peggy Kaye has a book with math games that are fun. Maybe just taking a day a week to play math games would work and help bring some enthusiasm back into your lessons---lots of connections to be made that way! I don't consider math to be a race, though I know that eventually we have to "get there", but I'm pretty laid back with my approach to schooling anyway. I'm seeing lots of growth because of that this year. I think a child's brain needs a certain amount of maturity to handle certain concepts anyway. Stop where you are and take a break for a day, then try again. Maybe you and your children will see it with new eyes. Pray too!

Oh, I also watch the clock, and if we go over, I put it aside for later. I do split lessons up and cover them over two days also.

[beandip71]

I am using 1A & 1B with my dd this year and she is doing very well. Math normally takes us 15 to 20 minutes to complete. I don't think she is brilliant in math, but she doesn't struggle with it. She has enjoyed the hands on activities in the Beyond manual and they have helped her understand new concepts. I'll admit I don't do all of the math activities, especially if she already gets the concept. Another reason I think Singapore is working for us is that there are not a ton of problems to be done each day, and she is retaining what she is learning. I am planning on using 2A & 2B next year with Bigger. HTH!

Gina

[Kristen]

Thanks for posting, Daisy. I have to say I'm in the same situation, trying to decide what to do for math next year. It was taking us soooo long to do math too. I had to do Saxon with two boys (one level 2 and one level 3).
Kathleen, your post was very helpful too because you had switched from Saxon. Posting the link to Carrie's explanation on Singapore helped clarify things for me as well.
I got so frustrated I have sort of boycotted math the last month or so. I have been doing a little bit of MUS (I bought Alpha earlier this year for my 2nd grader) and a little Saxon with him as well. He seems to like the Saxon. ??? With my oldest (3rd gr.) I have just been going to the MUS website and doing some online drills. I just dread having to drag all that Saxon "stuff" out each day and get it going.
I have heard good things on this board about Singapore but then some other people I've talked to say you have to be like a math scholar to understand and teach it. Ugh! I need to take a look at it and it's not going to be on display at either of the two HS conferences in my area. Do they have samples on their website?
Kristen

[Daisy]

Sigh. I'm giving my 4th grader the Singapore placement test today. She started having a meltdown over the 3A test. She KNOWS how to do this stuff but the terminology, the layout, the mental math all are different. If it was straight math problems lined up neatly she'd do fine. She's also never had 2 step word problems.

So I backed up and gave her the 2B test. She is flying through that. Oops I spoke too soon. Now she is having a crying meltdown over a word problem that is easy peasy. She's done the math correctly and still can't recognize that it's the ANSWER. It's like she has NO ability to do any higher reasoning. I'm noticing this pretty much across the board with her. She is so use to drill and kill that she hasn't learned to solve the puzzle.

So does that mean I need to start her all the way back in 3A? Isn't that THIRD grade? I can't imagine starting her 2 grade levels behind in the fall. Would I need to switch to Singapore and do it all summer long?

BTW, my first grader is doing fine with the 1A test. I'm going to have him do the 1B tomorrow.

[mskogen]

I had a eye opener on Monday where math is concerned too. My ds 8 years old is finishing MUS Gamma so I figured he would probably test into 2a b/c there isn't any division in gamma. To my surprise he tested into 1B. I was shocked. However I noticed the same thing he couldn't do the higher level reasoning. He is getting A's/B's in gamma. If I ask him a mulitpication question he can tell me. The placement test helped me realize he is not getting the higher level reasoning. My ds 6 years old in first grade tested into 1B too. He did really well on the 1A test. He started with ShillerMath and switched this year to MUS Alpha. Needless to say I ordered singapore 1B for both ds's monday night. Can't wait to get it and give it a try.... Hopefully we like it...
Michelle

[8arrows]

I would definately start them where they test, or you will lose the benefits of a shorter program with higher level thinking skills. She may move through the 3A quickly once she catches on to the new format. From what I have read Singapore would start 1A at age 7 (so if she is going to be 10, that would only be one level "behind"). Also, I put my second son in pre-algebra after 5B without problems, so she could still do pre-algebra in 7th if you so desire. I switched to a MUS/Singapore combo after Abeka. Singapore has been much better for their math skills. Next year, I am even taking the plunge with my two younger boys not to do a combo--just Singapore. Singapore has made my math skills so much better, that I am now a better teacher, thus I am not feeling the need to do 2 math programs.

[Daisy]

So as usual, I'm not sure what to do. DD completed the 2B placement test. Tears, whining, moaning, groaning, things like, "Just hit my brain because it won't work" (basically frustration and drama). It took her over an hour (that was with my splitting the test into two sittings).

Her score on 2B? 97%

UUGUGH. What does that mean? I'm telling you huge crocodile tears. "I cannnnnnn't do this! What do they mean? I don't understand it!!" Then she finally settles down and does it. Bottom line, I think she doesn't know WHY she is answering the questions the way she is but she gets them correct.

So what do I do?

[Amey]

That seems like a very long time for CLE Math 1 to me. I am doing this with my 6 year old and it takes us maybe 15/20 minutes a day. I have never seen 50 problems in a lesson. Are you counting the speed drills as part of that? IMO, that repetition is needed. Of course my son (who loves to try to beat the clock) thrives on that, whereas your child might not. It is true that different children do well with different programs..I would just make sure it's not a "no mathematical inclinations" issue rather than a curriculum issue before switching again as math is one of those subjects where consistency is important.

[Daisy]

First Grade CLE Lesson 106 of Unit 106 has 49 problems today without the speed drills. CLE doesn't count it that way. They say there are only 11 sections but each section has several problems. Every day is nearly 50 problems. It just doesn't look like it because it's spread out over 3 pages. I dont' know why it takes my kids so long. If I could do it all orally, he would fly through it. But he takes forever to write everything out. Average is 10-15 minutes per page. We do the oral work from the TM but I don't spend a ton of time on flashcards and speed drills. Man, I can't imagine how long it would take if I added in the speed drills.

Fourth Grade CLE averages 50-60 problems (of varying difficulty) each day and we do the additional speed drills. She has all her addition/subtraction facts memorized and most of her multiplication/division facts. So it's actually going through the multiple steps of each problem that takes her soooo long.

I guess I feel like my kids are just doing what they are told. They don't seem to really understand the directions. I often have to verbally explain to them what the textbook wants them to do. For example, my son might see 10-4=? He is going to stare at it for 5 minutes. If I say, "Hey, what is the difference between 10 and 4?" He'll quickly say, "6". My daughter seems to be the same way. She'll stare at the math problem for several minutes, act like she is in agony, and then finally work the problem out. Sometimes she still won't get it. I change it into a word problem and boom, she can solve it. It's like they can't get on their math thinking cap.

So is this a discipline issue? Is it a learning style issue? Am I nuts to even think about changing maths again. Daughter went to school for k/1. She did R&S for 2/3 and is doing CLE for 4th. Should I just stick to what we are using? Son did Singapore for K and is doing CLE for 1st.

[Mom2Monkeys]

I personally think that Singapore would help get their thinking caps on ) You can't help but think with it and my average math-iness dd even enjoys Singapore. We did other programs with multiple sections, drill, etc. and she retained NOTHING! She could give answers but not explain how she got it. Now that we've started Singapore, she can explain things to Dad or even simplify it for her little brother. She says she likes it b/c there aren't so many things to do (as in math problems) so it's not "overworking" her. My goal was to find a program to teach my kids to think mathematically, not just teach math steps. Singapore is perfect for that!

It is hard to teach in the lower levels without Carrie's plans, but with them it's SO SO easy! Starting in Level 3, there aren't hands on activities but the text book comes in handy with all the pictorial lessons...kids could easily make a hands on activity for themselves from the pictures if needed at first.

We switched from Horizons 2 and had to start in Singapore 2A. There's a chart on the Singapore site that says for kids that start with Singapore from the beginning would be doing one level less than their grade (so 4 in 5th), but it's normal and acceptable to test 1-2 (or more) levels below the actual grade level. I would think your dd would be able to complete more than 1 lesson a day if she tested into 3---there's a very reasonable number of problems at that level,...then you could slow down when needed. Most people I know that use Singapore complete 5B in 6th or 7th then do Pre-Algebra.

I hope that helps...I have seen a huge change in my dd's math thinking (she actually THINKS ) now that we're using Singapore. I hope you find the right fit too!

[water2wine]

Daisy,

We did R&S. I had four that I pulled out of ps. It helped get them on track. I switched to TT and that did not work well for us. Then we went to BJU which has been perfect. I wish though that when I pulled them out I had just bitten the bullet and gone back the level to get them on track with Singapore. My K and 1st grader do Singapore and love it. My 1st grader can do some dividing and multiplying just because of the way Singapore teaches. I look back often and wish we had done Singapore with all of them. But BJU is working well for them. I can see that Singapore really teaches them to think and teaches things like place value effortlessly. I think you might do well to just start really slowly with it and set limits on time. Just sharing my hindsight I wish I had done it but didn't and regret it.

Carrie will be releasing recommendations on Math beyond Singapore before your children get to that phase. She is now researching that. I love to have that all done for me.