Waiting on recommending Teaching Textbooks...

[Carrie]

Ladies,

I wanted to post an update to let you know that we are going to be waiting on the decision of whether to recommend Teaching Textbooks for math instruction in the future. If you've read the board previously, we had put forth a probable plan of recommending TT 6 as an alternate for Singapore Math 5A/5B and had also discussed plans for moving into TT7 instead of Singapore 6A/6B.

Since our oldest son is currently using TT7, and had also used TT6 last year, we were feeling pretty comfortable with that direction. I must admit that as the year is progressing, we are finding the sections on multiplication and division of fractions are utilizing some "new math" type strategies with factoring that cloud the logic of the actual problem-solving quite a bit. When I was heading out of my years of teaching in the public school, the "new math" craze had just come on the scene, resulting in many kiddos who no longer understood math, and even more parents who could no longer help their children with doing math in this "new way". So, with TT we are beginning to wonder if teaching math in this "certain" way may handicap the child in future math study. It is too early to tell right now, but we definitely wish to research this further.

We've also found that within the scope and sequence of TT, some key concepts are left until the very end of the course to be taught. This could possibly cause students to not be well-prepared for standardized testing until they have completed the course. We had our own experience with this last year, when my oldest son had only one week left to go in his TT6 and was taking the standardized tests that same week. He missed 4 problems on his standardized test in math on a concept that came up the day after he took the standardized (in the final 4 lessons of TT). So at this point we feel that we need another year to even more fully evaluate future math recommendations.

In our upcoming guide we will be recommending Singapore Math through 5A/5B, as previously discussed on the board. However, we will not be giving the option of using TT6 as an alternate option for Singapore 5A/5B in the upcoming guide. We deeply desire for our middle school math recommendations to provide students with a strong foundation for upcoming high school math courses and want to make sure that we are preparing kiddos to that end.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Mom2Monkeys]

This is good to know...I'm glad you are being so cautious about it and really waiting to know for sure. Thank you!

Have you looked at VideoText? It's pricey too, but can be bought a little at a time. It's also independent and computer/video based. I think it starts in the Jr. high school math though w/pre-alg., and the lower levels are "Chalkdust Math" ???? I could be wrong about that...that might be a whole other program. I haven't looked extensively, but with the similar format, I thought it might be worth a look to see if presentation of concepts is what you're looking for.

ETA: I just looked at the site and I think prices have gone up! Wow! Maybe not a good option price wise, but I like the program.
And Chalkdust is a seperate program that starts with 6th grade "Basic Math" going up through Calculus 1. They have "Math Matters" for grade 3,4,5.

[jewel7123]

Oh, man, I was all excited about using them too! lol Math is my WORST subject by far, so I loved the idea of a math program that allowed the student to work independently and offered lots of teaching/explanation to the student. Is there another program out there that's similar to TT?

[Carrie]

Even though our oldest son had used TT6 last year and is using TT7 this year, we had actually not decided on what to use with him for high school yet, so we've been researching those options for awhile now. We have always been drawn to VideoText Algebra for high school as it seems to really focus on the "why" of math. Now that their Geometry is complete, we are taking another look at that. VideoText Algebra is very pricey, but it does cover 2 years of math (Algebra 1 and 2). Some even say VideoText covers 3 years of math, covering Pre-Algebra as well. This is something we need to research more fully. The VideoText Geometry program covers Geometry, some Trig, and some Pre-Calc. We're not sure as of yet if it covers enough of these to count for credit in all of those math areas.

We are also considering an Algebra I program at this site: http://www.kineticbooks.com/index.html We understand there are plans underway for Algebra II (which is being tested now) and for a Pre-Algebra at some point. No projected release dates are available for the Algebra II or Pre-Algebra.

We will take another look at the other major math companies out there and have decided that in doing so, we will need at least another year of research before making an upper level math recommendation.

Blessings,
Carrie

[my3sons]

Thank you for your thorough research here, Carrie! Although I really do love math, I know that I would not be able to research it as fully as you are doing, and there is such a comfort in knowing you are cautiously and painstakingly going through that research process for the best possible recommendations. Thanks!!!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mom2Monkeys]

Carrie,
I have never heard of the Kinetic Books. I was just looking at it and it looks incredible! It seems well organized and interesting--not dry at all-- without sacrificing content. Knowing my kids and if they are anything like they are now, once they get to high school, Kinetic Books will be an amazing fit for them! I hope this winds up as at least one of your recommended math programs!

I also wanted to add that a benefit I see with this program is that it is so very similar to the way universities are setting up their online math courses. My dh took a few college math courses online in the last couple years and they all looked like this except much more dry. Familiarity in that freshman year could be a great asset!

[deltagal]

In our upcoming guide we will be recommending Singapore Math through 5A/5B, as previously discussed on the board. However, we will not be giving the option of using TT6 as an alternate option for Singapore 5A/5B in the upcoming guide. We deeply desire for our middle school math recommendations to provide students with a strong foundation for upcoming high school math courses and want to make sure that we are preparing kiddos to that end.

Oh, this is good to hear. I was just thinking about your recommendations this a.m. for TT and had decided that we would definitely continue with Singapore through 5A/5B. I'm still leaning towards using Saxon after finishing with Singapore 5A/5B, but I will definitely take a good look at the materials you select.

[Riversidemom3]

Hi Carrie,

I echo the responses to appreciation of your knowledge and thoroughness before recommending curriculum. I just wanted to add my thoughts and a question.

This subject is of current interest to me as my 11th grade dd is in her 3rd year of using TT. It has been very successful for her and we will finish high school using it. I started my 4th grade dd is TT5 (after taking the placement test first). She enjoys it and is doing well.

My concern lies mostly with the early years. I was so caught up in how well my 11 grader was succeeding that I couldn't wait for my youngers to start using this. I've done a little searching on the internet since you posted this information. From what I can initially gather: the big name reviewers (Duffy, Andreola, TOS, etc.) are all praising TT but only naming Algebra and beyond not earlier grades. Most of the complaints that I can find seem to be of elementary grades. So now I'm confused as I thought I had found "it". I will finish the year out with her and wait for further commentary on your experience and thoughts.

My question is have you thought of emailing TT with your concerns just to hear their thoughts?

Thank you again.

Jeri

[Tiffini]

I would be very curious as to what TT authors would say about this concern and the "new math". I appreciate your thoroughness and research so much, as I must say that these math issues can overwhelm me. We are using TT6 with my 5th grade dd this year and it is going well. I was so excited about continuing with it since it has simplified my life immensely. In fact, I was hoping to put my twins into it next year for 4th grade using TT5. So, I was quite disappointed to hear that there may be some issues with their teaching methods. I'm looking forward to what else you have to say about it as you do ongoing research.

Jeri, it is interesting that your experience is the opposite - enjoying the higher math so much - which seems to be Carrie's issue of concern. I'm just so thankful that I have so many other wise moms to look for advice and experience. Thanks for everyone's input into this issue.

[Carrie]

Ladies,

I am still pleased overall with TT6 and 7 and am happy that we have chosen to use it for our oldest son up to this point. We still feel that Singapore is the best avenue to go with early elementary math (through 5A/5B and are reconsidering whether to recommend through 6A/6B - which is now seeming to be a much sounder option). For those of you who use other math programs, I cannot speak to the coverage in those programs, but I do know that there are many good programs out there with excellent coverage. We personally enjoy the higher level thinking and strong mental math component of Singapore and feel it prepares kiddos well for upper level math.

We will not be making any snap decisions on TT and will continue to research it this upcoming year. However, we have found that Dr. Wile, of Apologia, also has reservations about TT Algebra I and II. I spoke to him this morning about it, and he specifically mentioned that TT does not cover logs or polynomials in their Algebra programs and also omits other concepts usually covered in Algebra, not covering what is typically covered in other Algebra courses. He said that by waiting to cover these topics until Pre-Calc TT will be trying to make up for missed topics in Algebra I and II at the Pre-Calc level. He mentioned that while he does not review curriculums, he does look for key math concepts that are needed for science study to be covered in upper level math texts and found these topics to be missing.

I've also found a previous post showing Jeannie Fulbright's thoughts on Pre-Algebra, which corresond pretty well with our own thoughts right now. I have to run but will pop back another time to complete this post.

Blessings,
Carrie

[water2wine]

Carrie,

Thank you for taking the time to research with other experts in this area. I so appreciate the time and care HOD takes to carefully consider all their choices that are used and even try them out if possible. It gives me such peace to know that you are answering all the questions I could even have for future application in what you use in HOD even before I could have them. We really appreciate how you go above and beyond and make this business a ministry. I am excited to see what you choose in the future, knowing it will be the absolute best fit for HOD. I really value your judgment on these things and appreciate sharing the thought process that so few other publishers would dare to share just for our benefit. Praying God will bless you and give you an absolute peace in the programs He would have you choose to accomplish His will for HOD!

[Carrie]

Ladies,

I am finally coming back to this thread to finish my stream of thought. As a follow-up to my phone call to Dr. Wile yesterday, I received a very thorough email from him summarizing his thoughts on the main math programs out there (from the standpoint of how well each one prepares a child for upper level science study). I find his input to be a solid, very neutral way to compare math programs, as Dr. Wile has no personal vested interest in any one particular math program.

I will quote just a couple things from his email that pertain to TT. I respectfully ask that you not copy this part of the email to any other board, as these were Dr. Wile's words to me. I only post this portion here as it pertains to our current weighing of TT:

"...although TT presents the math in a very easy-to-understand way, it is simply not rigorous enough to prepare students for our (Apologia's) science courses. I am not a mathematician, but I noticed several topics that should be covered in Algebra 1 and 2 that are either not covered or not covered nearly in depth in TT. They are:
1. Graphing functions piecewise.
2. Finding the zeroes of a function.
3. Writing a polynomial given its solutions.
4. Sequences and series
5. Derivation of the quadratic equation
6. The conic sections were only lightly discussed. For example, there is no mention of a parabola's focus, directrix, or axis of symmetry. No mention of an ellipse's major and minor axes, etc.
7. Logarithms and exponential functions. I know that #7 is in the table of contents for Precalculus, but then I wonder what has been left out of Precalculus to make room for it."

He did mention on the phone that the Geometry course of TT does seem to contain all needed content and appears to give complete coverage.

I have also read a 2007 past post by Jeannie Fulbright discussing her concern over TT Pre-Algebra (as she was using it with her own daughter at the time). She seems to have had a similar experience to ours in that she began the year loving TT, and then as the year went on had some misgivings about her daughter only learning the "HOW" and not the "WHY" behind the math. This escalated until the end when the topics left for the final chapter came one right after another with little time to get them down pat, and each were very important. As always, Jeannie's post was incredibly gracious in her wording, and I know she is never one to share concerns lightly. She is a wonderful Christian lady who I admire with all my heart. This year, she is currently using a program called Algebra: A Fresh Approach, which we will also be giving a thorough look. She does still recommend the younger TT programs, but suggests using something else for Algebra. Here is a link to Algebra: A Fresh Approach: http://www.aplusses.com/zencart/

I realize that no curriculum will work for everyone and that one person's dislikes may be someone else's perfect fit. When weighing what to recommend to others, we have to consider the best product overall, so we'll be in prayer over this and would be so grateful if you would pray for us too.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Riversidemom3]

Carrie,

Thank you so much for the extra effort in researching this issue. This gives me much to think about. My daughter is very good at math. She has been known to do Algebra in her spare time. Crazy girl! LOL We do use Apologia for science so we'll see how difficult Chemistry becomes as we move along through the book given that Dr. Wile finds that TT Algebra is missing some content that is necessary for science. Any suggestions on how I can fill in the gaps for her without feeling like she has to take a whole curriculum all over again would be appreciated. I should note she has completed Algebra 1, Geometry and is currently doing Algebra 2 (her choice to do Geometry first).

On a different note: I had been finishing up CLE math with my ds in 2nd grade. We had it so I wanted to use it. We just switched over to Singapore and so far so good. He really enjoys it.

Thank you again. I consider it a blessing to have found you and your curriculum.

Jeri

[Kathleen]

I'll be praying for you as you dig in and prayerfully consider your reccommendation! Thanks for your hard work and desire to "lead" well with your curriculum. (We're focusing on leadership this week in Bigger... )

Kathleen

[Carrie]

Jeri,

First off, I am certain that you have worked hard to do a good job of educating your oldest child, so I certainly don't desire for you to feel that the path you have taken with her in math is not a complete one. It sounds like your daughter is the mathy sort, and those types of kiddos seem to excel no matter which math program you use. They also seem to absorb new math learning pretty easily and to "think" on it even in their spare time. This additional thinking through problems is not something that always happens for kiddos, so you should feel good about your daughter's math experience.

It sounds like she is on a path to complete TT Pre-Calc next year, which would do a good job of completing any missing concepts she might have had up until now. As far as Chemistry goes this year, I would think your daughter may catch on to the formulas and math topics used in Apologia being that math is her strong suit. If she's having trouble, you could always consider adding "The Bridge" for math (which is a math refresher course meant to prepare kiddos for the rigor of math for the Chemistry course The Spectrum) but would also, most likely, work to prepare kiddos for Apologia Chemistry as well (Without being another full math course). Here is that link: http://www.beginningspublishing.com/products.html
Scroll down to see "The Bridge Math" last.

I do not think there is one "right way" to homeschool our kiddos, except God's way. I do know that He leads different families in different directions and that He will always give each child what is needed to be able do His call (which is often a huge burdan off my shoulders).

Blessings,
Carrie