Should I Separate Kids?

[Mamamindy]

Hello! I'm wondering if some of you might could give some input on placement. My youngest two children are going through PHFHG together. They are 3rd and 5th grade. We are in unit 10, so we've had plenty of time to get comfortable with it. I'm feeling that my 3rd grader would gain much more from the program going half speed. Full speed is too heavy a workload for him. He is absolutely capable of the work. The necessary reading & writing skills are there, but a full day is just too much for him. I often have him skip boxes for the sake of time & not overloading him. However, my 5th grader is spot on going full speed. It is just right for him. I DO want to separate them in the future when the guides become more independent, but I don't have time to do 2 mom-intensive guides right now. And I am really enjoying our time all together reading & discussing & doing projects. It's a sweet time! But I feel my younger son is missing out because he is skipping several boxes each unit.

My question is this: should I separate them now? And if so, who do I move? I really don't see myself being able to do Bigger and Preparing at the same time. The only way I could do that would be to have my 5th grader do most of the teacher-led boxes in Preparing independently. He probably could handle that, though I think he would get much more out of it if we did it together. I am not sure he if he could handle CTC. Should I have both boys go half speed for now and add in extras for 5th grader? Should I move 5th grader to CTC and have him go half speed and keep 3rd grader in Preparing at half speed? Should I keep them both in Preparing and let the 3rd grader continue skipping boxes until he is ready to handle more? What do you think?

[StephanieU]

Could you have them both in Preparing, one full speed and one half speed? You could ask the oldest one to do either storytime or history reading independently, choosing the easiest one for each day.

[Mamamindy]

I've thought about that, but to have them at different places in the guide would be pretty much the same as running two separate guides. With this particular guide being so teacher intensive, that makes me a little nervous. Maybe someone who has had two children at separate places in the same guide could chime in on that thought.

[Nealewill]

Before I reply with my thoughts, how did your younger son do with bigger? When is his birthday? And what is challenging him most with this guide?

[Mamamindy]

Hi Daneal, We never did Bigger. I started Bigger with these two boys together last year and found it way too easy for the older boy. I really wanted them together for everything possible last year, so we ended up having an eclectic year. I still have most the books for Bigger, but I don't have teacher guide.

Younger boy turned 9 in August. Older boy will be 11 in January. Younger son is struggling mostly with the length of time it takes to complete boxes. It takes him twice as long to read and write than what is listed as approximate box times. It is just a heavier workload than he is ready for. He is also unable to do the science independently. The reading is slightly above his level. I definitely think he could do half speed for a few months and work up to full speed eventually. But as of now, I'm having him skip boxes to stay on same unit as his brother.

He is enjoying PHFHG. He is not frustrated at all with it. But as Mom, I'm feeling he could get a lot more out of it either going half speed or waiting a year. But as stated above, I don't have time to do Preparing and Bigger at same time unless I have 5th grader do most T-boxes on his own and I don't think that would be best for him. I'm not sure how to go about meeting them both where they're at right now.

[Nealewill]

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I had a crazy weekend.

If it were me, I would put them both in Bigger. I previously had my younger two together and then separated them for one year. I was great because I felt like they were placed so well at their own levels. However, it was way to much work on me. My son got to about unit 10 in Preparing, my younger dd was in Bigger and I couldn't run both levels at the same time. I dropped Preparing for everything except my son's science and made him repeat that guide (except for the science). He stayed in the science with Preparing, which is what he asked me to do. I also added in the extensions for him to do. He did all the extensions for history but not the ones for science since he was already doing the science for Preparing.

Since your kiddos haven't done Bigger, then I would procure a manual, drop Preparing, get the extensions for the older boy and do Bigger as is. It will greatly help your younger son build up the stamina needed for the Preparing guide. So many of those activities are done in Preparing too. Since your older son isn't struggling, doing the extensions including those writing assignments each week (scheduled activities as part of the extensions) will keep him right on track. And I would stick with the science for Bigger. It is very fun and my kids LOVED it!!!!!! The extension books will completely extend the learning for science as well. I personally would not have your older son continue like I did. That way you wont be in the weird position that I am now in. Since I let my son continue on with his science from a different guide, I had to use a different science this year. So I let him do science with his older sister. That way next year both him and his younger sister can do science together again. And when he gets to RevtoRev, I will probably just have him repeat this science and he can use the advanced set.

And if you do decided to do plan, once you finish Bigger, I would pick up Preparing where you left off but not let your younger son skip boxes the next time. And I would again have your older son complete the extensions. I would plan for him to do the extensions all the way through. My son, even though he is not in the extension age range, I am having him do the extension this year. He likes the books and he works a lot faster than his younger sister. Because he struggles greatly with writing and because of his age, he is not doing the extra writing assignments. But he and I do something oral daily everyday with his books. I don't know if I will have him do the extensions all the way through or not. But the reading is less for science (RevtoRev) this year than what is scheduled in Preparing so I am having him read more regardless. I guess I could have had him do the inventors study but I wanted to wait until he was in RevtoRev to do that.

[MomtoJGJE]

Based on what you said, I would separate them in Preparing. It would not be the same as doing it full time with both... not too teacher intensive I mean. You said your oldest is doing great with the guide, but your youngest is struggling with the I boxes. So I would leave the oldest as is, and let the younger one have more time to do each thing. You could do one day in two days, but instead of left/right or however else, you could split it in half. So for instance if it's supposed to be read pages 5-10, he would only read pages 5-7 the first day and then 8-10 the second day. Same thing for the T boxes.

[my3sons]

Well, as you can see, there are many options for placement and pacing within HOD. That's a good thing! And, we will figure this out all together so going forward you have a super plan! But it takes a little discussion back and forth to fine tune it. According to the placement chart, if you think of them separately, where do they each place? Please share specifically about their reading, writing, grammar, and math if you could - a fresh look would really help us!!! I am wondering if either of them is appropriately placed in PHFHG - wondering if your oldest places in CTC and younger in Bigger. Not sure - maybe oldest is properly placed? Not sure about youngest - typically it would be a pretty advanced 3rd grader doing PHFHG, especially in the area of reading/writing/following independent directions/written narrations/research/vocabulary etc. assignments. I'd like to hear about the reading/writing skills they each have, as well as your oldest student's ability to work independently and follow directions well, if you could please share. Thanks!

http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

Thanks so much! I'll check back.

In Christ,
Julie

[Mamamindy]

Thank you for all the responses so far!

I feel confident older boy is well placed in Preparing. He is challenged, but not overwhelmed. Lessons are taking the suggested time. He does work well independently. I've got him reading the Storytime box on his own and then we discuss. He is able to do all independent and semi-independent boxes on his own, with the exception of research and science experiment (he can do experiment on his own, but needs help to fill out form). Biggest reason I would not want to move him to CTC is his writing abilities. He still is not able to put a decent sentence together without guidance, much less a paragraph! That is my big focus with him right now. I'm having him answer all written work in complete sentences. His reading is probably average for a 10 year old boy. I wouldn't call him an advanced reader, but I wouldn't say he's behind either. He can read the Preparing books with very few mistakes and fairly good comprehension.

Younger son turned 9 in August, so he is an older third grader. He works well independently as long as he understands what he needs to do. He can follow written instructions as long as they are simple and straight forward. His reading is probably average. He is beyond the "emerging reader" set, but not by much. Books such as One Small Square or 5000-Year-Old Puzzle that have text scattered all over the page (informational boxes and lengthy picture captions) are hard for him to do independently. It is too scattered for him. He misses much of the information thats not in the main passage. He cannot do the science box in Preparing on his own. He can read the books, but he is so focused on the technical aspect of reading that he doesn't have the best comprehension. That makes notebook pages very difficult. He can do the History Project box, timeline and vocabulary (just one vocab word for sake of time) on his own just fine. We are on unit 10 and so far he's had no problem with the Independent History box (I read 5000 Year-Old-Puzzle aloud, but he has done everything else on his own). He can do the cursive, but it is slow. He is doing okay with oral narrations. He does okay with the guided written narration on day 4.

I know Storytime is supposed to be teacher-led, but I don't have time to read both History and Storytime aloud, so older does it independent and younger is skipping it. The boxes younger boy is completely skipping are: Science, Research, Geography and Storytime. It's not that he can't do them, it's that he needs more help than I have time to give. I feel that he would be able to do it all just fine if we slowed to half-speed, but I don't want to do that to older boy. I know none of those are make-or-break the program boxes, but I really feel like he could get more from this guide if we slowed down a bit. I also realize that he will most likely NOT be ready for CTC in 9 months.

Both boys are doing CLE math and I'm not looking to change that. I have no problem skipping busy work and crossing things out, so the lessons are not too long. Math takes about 30 minutes a day. They are each doing MFW Language Lessons for Today along with occasional worksheets for grammar. Younger boy is on dictation level 3 and older boy on dictation level 4.

I hope that can give you a better picture of where the boys are. I wonder if splitting them in Preparing might be best. What do you think? Thank you in advance for any input

[Nealewill]

It sounds like you are crazy busy right now so I don't think I would split up your kids. What if you slowed the guide down and added in the extensions for Preparing? That way your older child can keep up with the reading and the additional work. You can help him do at least 1 writing assignment a week to work on his sentences. Basically, he would do the history writing assignment once every two weeks and then do a written narration from the extension once every two weeks. I would just schedule those opposite each other. I would stop skipping boxes with the younger child. And then I would work on those skills as they arise since you are going half speed. What are you thoughts about this? This would slow down the one child but still keep the other child moving forward. Then once you get to CtC, you could still have the other child do the extensions and go half speed for a little while if you need to. And this way it doesn't add to your current workload.

[Mamamindy]

That is actually just what I've been thinking the last couple days! You just confirmed it! I'm going to give that a trial for a few weeks and see how it goes. It probably won't be that hard to just slow them both down, but at the same time expect more from my older son so that he's still being challenged. He is a good independent worker, so I think that would go well. Both boys love this curriculum and we have such fun doing it together!

Thank you for the input!!

[my3sons]

Thanks for sharing here! It sounds like your older son is well-placed and thriving in PHFHG, which is wonderful! So, no need to make any changes there. Thank you for sharing more about your middle son. PHFHG is a guide that takes a bit to grow into, however, what concerns me going forward it that there is a quite a lot of PHFHG that he is not doing or that is needing to be modified...

Books such as One Small Square or 5000-Year-Old Puzzle that have text scattered all over the page (informational boxes and lengthy picture captions) are hard for him to do independently. It is too scattered for him. He misses much of the information thats not in the main passage. He cannot do the science box in Preparing on his own. He can read the books, but he is so focused on the technical aspect of reading that he doesn't have the best comprehension. That makes notebook pages very difficult. He can do the History Project box, timeline and vocabulary (just one vocab word for sake of time) on his own just fine... I know Storytime is supposed to be teacher-led, but I don't have time to read both History and Storytime aloud, so older does it independent and younger is skipping it. The boxes younger boy is completely skipping are: Science, Research, Geography and Storytime... I also realize that he will most likely NOT be ready for CTC in 9 months.

As you already said, I agree that the two will more than likely need to separate next year anyway, as CTC goes up in skills - especially reading/writing/independent skills- quite a bit. The things that he is finding difficult/skipping are actually the very things that are easier in Bigger hearts (i.e. 1 vocabulary card instead of 3-5 cards, independent history readings aren't scheduled, science isn't independent, notebooking assignments are easier/have less directions/take less time/are parent led, there is no research, geography is much shorter, storytime is shorter and teaches excellent narration/comprehension skills, reading level is befitting his, etc.). He places quite soundly in Bigger Hearts for His Glory right now, and as the two will need to be separated next year anyway, and as it would be better for older son's comprehension/follow-up skills/time factor to just read the Storytime silently rather than aloud anyway, ideally it would be the best placement for both to separate and to do BHFHG with the younger son now. Only you can know what would be best for your family situation/needs overall, and you did mention being short enough on time that reading aloud the Storytime books was not an option, but as far as the 'best' placement for each of them (which is something I try to clarify when being asked), it would be BHFHG for the younger, and PHFHG for the older. I think this would actually be easier than going half-speed now with PHFHG, as if one goes half-speed and one goes full-speed with PHFHG, you'd be sharing everything with older son. You could do BHFHG just 4 days a week, and starting now, this would spread out BHFHG and PHFHG over about 2 1/2 years or so, which would put a guide between the boys. This would be nice, as your older son would take on more independence too. So, that is the flip side to consider! If you feel it would be good to give him a little more time, and that he can grow into doing all of the PHFHG fairly soon - certainly by the last 1/3 of it - then that is a possibility too. As Daneale said, you have to weigh what you can handle as the busy mama right now too. Hope something here helps!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mamamindy]

I appreciate all the feedback! I see what you're saying Julie. I *know* keeping older boy in Preparing at full speed and putting younger boy in Bigger would be most skill appropriate for each boy. I also do want them to be separated eventually. I just can't see how *I* can do both of those guides at the same time. We are already pushing it many days to get just Preparing done. I have four homeschoolers, a college student, 3 step kids (8 kids total to keep up with), a house we are remodeling, very involved in church (there 4-5 times a week), plus a husband that works 12-14 hour days. I don't see myself realistically being able to do both guides. Bigger is written to be all teacher-led, but are there boxes that would be appropriate for younger boy to do independently? Like I said, he is able to do the Independent History, History Project, Timeline and Vocabulary boxes in Preparing on his own so he is able to work independently on some things. Any thoughts?

[StephanieU]

My daughter did vocabulary and timeline independently most of last year in Bigger. She also did the notebooking mostly alone - e went over the instructions together and then she went off to complete it. I often had her listen to the hymn alone as well. And when time was tight, I tried to find the storytime books as audio books so she could listen while I did chores, etc (so I could multitask). Then we would do the follow up together.

[Carrie]

Mindy,

As you ponder your options, here are a few threads that may answer your questions as to how you could use Bigger a bit more independently. I am thinking that you would likely need to read the history readings to your son if you moved him to Bigger (at least at first and with A First Book in American History) and the storytime, but you could consider doing the science a bit more independently as suggested in the threads below.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10583&p=77055
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10344&p=75229
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10561

With my second son in line, who was an early writer and excellent reader, we did Bigger more independently than I have been able to do with my subsequent kiddos, but I will post a thread here where I describe the way I did Bigger with my second son (as you may be able to move toward doing more independently with your son in Bigger if you moved him down). Link: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4632&p=34419

Also, you could move toward more independence in Preparing with your older child, which we also did with my second son in line (who was ready for more independence). For example, if your oldest son was ready to read the history readings on his own, this would help. CM says a child of aged 9 on up who can read his own material should. It aids in retention, making connections, and retelling. Also, if your older son can begin reading more directly from the guide and doing as much as he can to prepare ahead for his times with you (as we mention in the examples above for Bigger, then this would help too).

Anyway, just a few things to ponder. It can be challenging to find the right fit at times, but it is worth the effort to search for the correct combination. Even if you decide to stay with Preparing for both kiddos, and slow it down so that your younger son is doing all that is in the plans without skipping anything, you will be able to tell if Preparing at a slower speed with Extensions is enough for your older child. If it isn't, then you'll want to allow that older child to move ahead at full-speed in Preparing more independently (which he is going to do once he gets to CTC anyway) rather than continuing to add more and more material to fill time for the older child just to keep the kiddos together. If you do end up continuing full-speed Preparing with your older child, then you could either go to half-speed Preparing with the younger guy or move him down to full-speed Bigger. Honestly, full-speed Bigger will have more of the skill-building that it sounds like your son is needing than half-speed Preparing. I wouldn't continue doing Preparing the way you are currently doing it with your younger son though, as there is too much that he is missing to adequately prepare him to enter CTC in the future.

We'll be glad to discuss with you if you have more thoughts to share or ideas to bounce around!

Blessings,
CArrie