Dictation AGAIN

[mrsrandolph]

If I understand correctly, Dictation is about spelling. My 13 year old daughter is a terrific speller, so I was looking through the different dictation levels for any words she can't spell. I think there are some words in level 6 she can't spell. However, the phrases are so LONG. I think she will have a hard time remembering the sentences to write them. HECK! I couldn't remember them to write them!!

But when I looked up dictation in the Charlotte Mason materials, she makes it clear that the sentences are to be read one at a time and not repeated,

Thoughts?

[Nealewill]

I actually break the sentences up a bit. I read up to the comma typically. Maybe I am doing it wrong. But this is what I have always done. My oldest is an okay speller but she misses common words all the time so I want her extra focused on what she writing. I also have all the kids repeat back to me what was said. And I will repeat things if necessary. I have found that homeschool is different than being a school setting. With Charlotte Mason herself, if her kids missed the sentence and missed the lesson, then when those kids got home they would get in trouble with their parents. In my house, if my kids aren't paying attention and they miss something, they have different consequences. In addition, if my kids missed part of the sentence and they were actually giving my their best, then I am not going to punish them for doing their best. Make sense? That is just my style though and it works for us. Also - as for memorizing long sentences to write, we may move to that eventually but my kids already do a lot of memory work in other areas. So at this point I am not concerned with having them remember a long sentence just so that they can write it.

[LynnH]

I also break the sentence up some. I remember on a post many years ago when comparing the way HOD does dictation with the way Classical educators do dictation Carrie said that with HOD dictation the point is not memorization. The point is getting the spelling and punctuation correct. I don't always stop at a comma though because my son figured that out, so instead I mix up where I stop to let him write. They are also supposed to repeat it back before they write. Just remember she has to get all spelling, indenting, and punctuation correct without any hints. My son didn't struggle with the spelling much at all, but as we went up to the higher levels the punctuation was tricky.

[Rice]

Whether you do complete sentences or phrases when starting at that level I guess is a personal choice, but you may want to base it on a more complete understanding of dictation. I suggest you find some articles about dictation, preferably ones that quote Miss Mason directly, as that will be the best way to get an accurate complete view of all it should accomplish.

I am by no means an expert but what comes to mind is that, in addition to spelling, it also teaches grammar (thus why older texts and the Bible are most often suggested as passages, in HOD and elsewhere), including punctuation, and the "habit of attention." It is this last part that is why they are encouraged to do complete sentences with only one reading. Ideally, a student will have come up through CM methods working on longer and longer passages, thus working up to the length you see in Level 6.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would look for passages elsewhere. I know it is more work, but I would search for words that my DD did need to work on and use texts that helped her focus on those. You can use classic texts, the Bible, school or DITHOR books to find these passages. You can choose ones from simpler texts (shorter sentences) that still contain target words at first, to work on her habit of attention, followed by longer passages as she gets more used to dictation. That way she will benefit from all the "targets" of dictation.

HOD is wonderful and I really appreciate the flexibility (as you can see from my signature ) but it is not "one size fits all" (I don't think any curriculum can be expected to be!) so sometimes we have to supplement to meet the needs of a child. It sounds like dictation might be a good subject for you to do that.

Just FWIW, you're not alone. I am trying to work towards full sentences with my kids. They're in levels 2-4, so it's a stretch for them, but not impossible (most days ) and a worthy goal to make dictation a challenge in more ways than just spelling.

Blessings,

[LovingJesus]

My understanding, like Rice, is that dictation is both for spelling and grammar. I also understood it to be for writing as well. To learn to hold those words in the mind that helps with the writing process.

You might need shorter sentences, for holding the words in the mind, that contain more difficult spelling words.

I like the dictation in Carrie's Appendixes for building up the spelling step by step. My children though are not natural spellers.

I do dictate one full sentence at a time. I pause at commas. Part of my goal though is to help them to learn to hold a full sentence in their mind so they can do so when they are practicing their own writing. At least this has been my understanding of Carrie's dictation and CM dictation. I have seen it as being a wonderful way to practice spelling, grammar, and holding words in one's mind to help advance their writing abilities. And yes CM dictations, over time, become quite long.

I hope that helps.

[LovingJesus]

Adding to my post:

I just looked it up in Carrie's Appendix. She says to call out dictations one phrase at a time, have the student repeat it back to us, and then have the student write it down.

I interpreted one phrase at a time to mean one sentence at a time. I am not sure though if she meant something slightly different.

I hope this helps.

[mrsrandolph]

Charlotte Mason definitely wants one sentence at a time regardless of length. So, we will try for that, though it look daunting at level 6, and that is where her spelling lies.

[Nealewill]

Adding to my post:

I just looked it up in Carrie's Appendix. She says to call out dictations one phrase at a time, have the student repeat it back to us, and then have the student write it down.

I interpreted one phrase at a time to mean one sentence at a time. I am not sure though if she meant something slightly different.

I hope this helps.

This is why I usually break stuff into chunks. For me - and I guess it really isn't fair of my oldest - my other kids are usually around doing something or making noise or even asking me questions while I am doing dictation with my oldest. If they distract her, she just can't remember a whole sentence if there are 15-20 words in it. Her brother and sister will have in some way distracted her. So I just try to keep it to 10-15 words. For example, she just completed level 4 dictation number 41. I would have broken it up like this:

1. If you spend a few minutes looking closely at a spider,
2. you will certainly see that there are six points on its back.
3. From these points comes the sticky fluid
4. which makes the spider's dainty web.

There are others where I would not always break at a comma necessarily but I would break somewhere else. Like for Level 4, number 43 (we haven't done this one yet but is a great example:

1. Robert Bruce, King of Scotland, was defeated in six battles.
2. At last his men disappeared, and
3. escaping alone he hid himself in a barn.
4. He thought he would give up the fight.

I partially break this up this way because I do want to know that my dd does understand where the comma goes. If her brother and sister didn't distract in anyway, then I possibly could give her the whole sentence for this specific example. But I just find it is a bit stressful for me to make her memorize more this and really only use "phrase" because that is what is written in the directions if that makes sense.

[LynnH]

This post that has responses from Carrie and Julie addresses the phrase vs sentence question. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12604&p=90847&hilit ... ion#p90847

[LovingJesus]

Charlotte Mason definitely wants one sentence at a time regardless of length. So, we will try for that, though it look daunting at level 6, and that is where her spelling lies.

Thank you for sharing this. This was my CM understanding as well, and it is nice to have it clarified.

One thing I have done is I have them at dictation levels where they can do one sentence at a time, rather then at their spelling levels. I have seen the one sentence at a time, for the purpose of writing and grammar, as more important then spelling. I haven't know though if that is the goal, it was just my CM understanding.

This post that has responses from Carrie and Julie addresses the phrase vs sentence question. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12604&p=90847&hilit ... ion#p90847

Thank you Lynn for sharing this link. This helps a lot and clears up the issue completely. It looks like one sentence at a time is the goal, but that one may start with phrases. I didn't realize we were only to read the phrase once. I have been doing once or twice. This was helpful to read as well. I also didn't realize they were to do the dictation from a single reading, even though they mostly have been doing that. This clears up the fuzziness I have had on this issue of dictation.

Thank you for the thread!

[LynnH]

I think when Carrie says a single reading she means that you only read it out loud once. The student is allowed to study it and read it multiple times to get it into their head. I know Carrie and Julie have even recommended that the student write any difficult words on the white board to study them.

The goal is to be able to do a full sentence, but I will say for some kids with some memory issues that goal isn't realistic. I know my son completed all the levels of dictation, but because of his short term memory issues he never got to the point where I could read an entire sentence, especially if the sentence was long.

[LovingJesus]

I think when Carrie says a single reading she means that you only read it out loud once. The student is allowed to study it and read it multiple times to get it into their head. I know Carrie and Julie have even recommended that the student write any difficult words on the white board to study them.

The goal is to be able to do a full sentence, but I will say for some kids with some memory issues that goal isn't realistic. I know my son completed all the levels of dictation, but because of his short term memory issues he never got to the point where I could read an entire sentence, especially if the sentence was long.

Thank you Lynn for clarifying this.