New to HoD -- Questions about Placement/Combining

[gatory7]

Hello everyone!
We are switching to HoD from MFW this year -- for a bunch of reasons I'm sure many of you can relate to (that I won't bother going into, cause I've already decided HoD looks awesome!).

I have a rising 4th grade daughter (age 9) and 5th grade son (turning 11 in Sept). As you can see, we decided not to start kindergarten with our son until he was about to turn 6; and it was the best decision ever. So though they're 22 mos. apart, they are only one grade apart. This worked splendidly with MFW, a curriculum known for ease of combining kids.

They both fit into the stereotypical gender stereotypes with a couple of exceptions. My son is very left-brained, highly analytical, is a mental math whiz, and just basically understands and computes things on a higher level than I do in many areas. :0) He has his dad's engineering brain. He excels at math and science. He is not a huge fan of language arts but does well at it. He does struggle with handwriting (he knows HOW, he just writes so FAST that it gets messy if I don't slow him down). He is less "can't do this" and more "I can do it but I just don't like to so I'm going to rush through it." This includes writing composition. He is reading 2-3 grades above level and reads QUICKLY. His reading comprehension scores on year-end tests are above-average, but not as high as his sister's (mainly because of the speed/missing things, I'm betting). He is excellent at spelling. He is not very good at memorization.

My daughter is the extreme opposite. She's our right-brained, free-spirited artist. She'd much rather draw or write short stories than do formal school. She's easily distracted and needs a timer and/or rewards to stay on task and complete her work. However, it doesn't BOTHER her to take all day to finish school. I kind of wish it would, because if it bothered her, she'd seek to finish faster/stay on task. She's just fine with leisurely completing her assignments. She's the reason I implemented daily checklists and time limits on certain subjects. She is very good at language arts (grammar, usage, spelling) but struggles some with math (which doesn't really matter as I can choose any math I choose to use within any HoD pack). Her handwriting (cursive AND print) is impeccable. She reads chapter books on par with her grade level, but she reads slowly (probably more distraction than ability). Her test scores in language arts were all well-above-average.

NOTE: This past year we completed MFW's Creation to the Greeks, both kids together for the core subjects. We broke off separately for math/LA.

NOW that you have a good picture of my kids' learning styles and abilities, here's my quandary.

I'd like to combine them in one pack if possible....not just because of cost, but also because we loved doing the core curriculum together as a group with MFW (history, Bible, science) and I'd love to continue that as much as I can until they're older. I have received advice from several other HOD users and the advice varies greatly. Here are the three options I see:

1) Combine them with PHFHG and add extension packs for my son.
This isn't a terrible idea -- I do see that they still "fit" on the chart with my son getting the extension items -- but I looked at it and it just appears as if it'd be taking a step backwards skill and challenge-wise. I noticed that many of the books recommended in this pack we've already read, and the ones we haven't, I believe my son (and maybe my daughter) would find too light/easy.

2) Combine them within Resurrection to Reformation.
This is the option my homeschool association advisor (who has monitored their progress and skills and scores since the first day of K) recommends. This would allow us to move forward in time history-wise (it is similar to the timetable covered in MFW's Rome to Reformation) and give adequate challenge for my son. If we start out and I realize that it is to beefy for my daughter, I could reduce her total number of assignments, read some of the things to her aloud instead, and/or modify assignments as needed. I LOVE that this pack includes the intro to purity for both girls and boys. BOTH of my kids have had questions about this lately and I think a seamless approach to this topic woven into the curriculum would be awesome (without feeling forced). As for some of the warnings from moms about the content being heavy, we have already been exposed to violence, sadness, and human depravity in earlier readings suggested by MFW, and instead of finding it to be a hindrance or burden, I have been embracing it as a chance to have some frank and honest discussions with the kids about many things.

3) Place my daughter in Creation to Christ and my son in Resurrection to Reformation.
This would obviously be the priciest option, so I want to make sure this is the right one if I choose to go this route. It would also mean that my daughter may feel bored with some of the subject matter since it will repeat the same period of history that we covered in great detail this past school year. My son has vehemently requested NOT to repeat ancient history, so I doubt this will go over well with him if I wanted to pull him into the same pack. My advisor suggested that we can always buy this pack for my daughter a month or so after school begins if we start out in RtR and find it too steep.

I am always the one with the unique challenges and complicated situations, so I have to laugh at this and take it in stride. Every single year I think I'm on track for what I want to do and then the Lord leads me in another direction pertaining to SOME form of curriculum....but usually it's something like math, usually not the core. I'm nervous about the switch but also really excited. I just need the confidence that comes with knowing I've made the right decision concerning logistics, and that's why I'm reaching out for advice from you seasoned HoD users.

Thanks in advance!

[Mumkins]

I would not put your DD in RTR. Combined in Preparing with extensions for your son was my first thought. I would never recommend using a guide with a child under the recommended age. Even with CTC, it requires a lot of writing. If your DD isn't prepared for a lot of writing, it'll be too much. I was using guides beginning a several weeks before my child turned the youngest age recommend. He did ok, but it got harder as we went up. CTC was the breaking point for him. He's very bright, but the writing got too much for him at that level.

I think Preparing is a great guide to begin HOD in. Especially if keeping together is your goal.

[3greatkids]

I'm not nearly as experienced with homeschooling or HOD as many of these moms are; however, we have used HOD for our journey thus far and are entering year 3. I have a similar situation. My kids are 21.5 months apart; there are three dc since our last two are twins. What we have done is do the "left side" of a given guide together, then had my son do the L/A box, math, and science box from the next guide up. Combining them in preparing with the extensions might be easier, but our method has worked to ensure that the science stays on target with my eldest's grade level. Good luck.

[Nealewill]

In sharing what you have shared about your kids, I think doing Preparing for your younger child would be best. CTC (as someone mentioned) is a lot more writing and reading that Preparing. If your youngest isn't very focused, you will find CTC be a very frustrating year. Preparing will help your youngest tremendously with learning how to be independent and with helping that child learn to stay on task.

With your oldest, I definitely think if that child is ready for RtR, I would put that child in their placed level. It is actually really nice having a level between each child. I don't because of the way my kids birthdays fell. My kids are all 1.5 years apart. My oldest is actually 2 levels ahead of my middle child (she only has a couple of more units in CTC and then she will be in RtR). And my middle and youngest are one guide apart. This is the first year that I will be re-reading books so we will see how much I like or don't like it. Just some back ground, we started HOD two years ago and I originally had my youngest two together in Beyond. This past year I split those two kids up and completed Bigger and Little Hearts. I haven't re-read any books yet back to back years. But realistically, my son loved Bigger so much last year and I am excited to see the wonder in my youngest dd's eyes when we go through it again. But with your two kids, they do sound like their skills span 2 guides difference. If it were me, I would place them each according to where each of them place on the guide. If the workload is just right for each child, your year will be amazing.

I am praying for you though on your decision. I struggled a bit when I first started because I wanted to make sure I had them placed correctly. For me, I was very happy with where I placed them each time and it is has been a great journey. I am praying you find peace with which ever level you choose to use and whether or not you choose to combine.

[LynnH]

I would not put a 9 year old in RTR. If you end up tweaking things for her you lose a lot of the skill building that is built in to the guides and you can count on always having to tweak. The content also is geared for older kids and so that might be an issue. It will also put her at the high school guides 2 years early and I can tell you that I would never put a 7th grader in the WG guide due to length of day and difficulty level. If you don't want to do 2 separate guides and your son refuses to do CTC then yes I would put them both in Preparing and beef it up for your son.

[gatory7]

Thanks for the responses thus far!

I am pretty sure that RtR is the best fit for our oldest. Though he's about to turn 11 and is in the 5th grade, according to public school's cutoff date, he'd technically fit into 6th grade this year (if we'd chosen not to homeschool and chosen not to wait a year to start him in kindergarten). I think he's mature enough for the challenge/ the work expected of him in this pack.

Now my question is whether to put our daughter in PHFHG or CtC. I need to chat with her today to see what she thinks. Sometimes just talking through this with the kids themselves brings up some concerns they have that I never considered! (And also show her the book lists. Sometimes that's all it takes!)

My homeschool association advisor knows my kids well (and their progress thus far) and she is certain that my daughter will do okay in CtC, and possibly even RtR (with tweaking). She said if I feel great pause when it comes to putting her in either of these, then she supposes I could put her in PHFHG but be sure to keep her at a higher level in the language arts curriculum. She also said that the assn. will be glad to grant me an extension on declaring our year's curriculum so we can try an upper level with her for a month, then order the next level down if it's too beefy.

Also hadn't considered how this looks for her down the line going into middle/high school. I wouldn't want her doing high school level work in the 7th grade.

Maybe this partly comes down to more what kids are truly able to do cognitively versus a "heart issue," meaning there's a difference between academic know-how and ability and (to put it bluntly) laziness. Maybe part of it is a parenting issue, working on her heart, which we've been diligently focusing on for a while now. I know that second-borns are generally more laid back, messy, and free-spirited, but there has to be some sort of training with them in order to set them up for independence and future success as adults. KWIM?

[MomtoJGJE]

I would definitely put your dd in preparing based on what you said. All of it is a perfect fit for Preparing actually. If she needs more (I doubt she will, Preparing is an awesome 4th grade guide. My kids have all been way above grade level in everything using Preparing as written.) you could get the extension books for her.

For your son... have you looked at the placement chart? HOD requires less left-brained thought processes than a lot of curriculum does. There are very few "right" answers because the child is supposed to be making connections in their brain. Honestly, from what you said, I think CTC would be a great guide for him. The only hesitation is that I don't know how MFW handles their CTG stuff. I"m not sure how much would be overlap. However, CTC fits everything you described about him (you could work on his math level). If you decided it was too similar, then RtR would work. I'm not sure how much of the "basic" written narration stuff he has, and it's a LOT of writing. Have you checked the placement chart with just him in mind?

[gatory7]

Yes. I believe he fits within RtR using the placement chart. He can write narrative stories as well as basic paragraphs. Still working with him on remembering to check his grammar and punctuation, but we went through two different writing programs last year that I believe effectively bolstered his writing skills. His handwriting is still sloppy when he rushes, but when he slows down and focuses, his handwriting is much better. I am making him complete a Bob Jones handwriting workbook this summer to work on both his print and cursive.

The only thing he hasn't learned yet is sentence diagramming, and I blame that on the "lighter" grammar books we used with MFW. I expect Rod & Staff grammar to give him a better grammar foundation.

As far as the math in the placement chart, he is beginning to think abstractly and is moving past rote memorization of facts and basic computations. We've been using Singapore Math with him for 2 years and I think it does a great job of teaching that there's more than one way to think about a math problem.

[gatory7]

Also, I'm leaning towards CtC more now with my daughter (vs. PHFHG). In my experience it's far easier to subtract and modify for a struggling student that it is to beef up and supplement a program that isn't challenging enough. I feel that much of my free time last year was spent trying to find more challenging things to add to MFW (or things to replace the activities and projects I thought were somewhat "cheesy.").

I also noticed that PHFHG doesn't have student notebooking pages? Do those start in the CtC level? We are used to having a corresponding workbook/notebook for history and I think she'd really miss that if it wasn't present.

[LynnH]

One thing to keep in mind is that HOD is different from MFW in that in each guide there is skill building that prepares them for the next guide. You really, really don't want to place your dd in a guide where you are going to have to modify to the point where she won't be doing the independent boxes independently. She doesn't have to be able to do them all independently at first, but by midway through the guide you want her there. The independent boxes are all the ones marked with an I. CTC is a big jump up from Preparing and then there is a smaller jump up to RTR, but it is still a jump and each guide asks for deeper thinking, more writing, and more independence.

There aren't student notebooking pages in Preparing because they make their own.

[shellbell]

Don't know if I really have much more to add, other than definitely go by skills, not by book list or what you have or haven't studied, and really be sure you daughter is ready for CTC, as all the other posters have said. It really is so critical with HOD. You won't really see this the first time you do a guide, but after you do 2 or 3 you really see how they build upon each other. This is one big difference between MFW and HOD from all the stuff I have read. Also HOD was written to beef up, so it is easier with HOD to beef up, rather than lessen, kind of the opposite of MFW, so you may find it actually in HOD's case easier to beef up, since that is how it was written to be used. (And not that either way is better, just different approaches. I know there was a thread a long time ago written about this, I can try to find it if you like). Preparing is such a great guide for leading, teaching, and directing to independence and really lays a solid foundation for the upper guides. If you did go with Preparing, maybe she would find it "easy" at first, but it gets more difficult as the year goes on. Just something to keep in mind. Since you are changing curriculum and approaches, that may be something to consider, as you are all adjusting. On the website you can look at the first week of plans of each guide and the intro, if you haven't already been able to do that. I personally love Preparing as 4th grade guide too. (Of course as long as they are ready for the skills needed, which your daughter seems to), but of course you ultimately know your daughter and your situation best!

Also about the notebook pages for Preparing, there was just a thread recently about this:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16395
It explains why there isn't premade notebook pages for Preparing and why there is for the other guides.

Praying for wisdom for you and a great year!!

[Mumkins]

Can I ask why they need to be challenged so much? HOD is a solid, rigourous curriculum. Doing Preparing in 4th grade and RTR in 6th means they finish the last guide in 12th. If they are finishing the day early because it's not challenging enough, they could I some extra stuff. If you go too high and tweak, you'll end up always tweaking and never enjoy the peace that proper placement brings. I pushed my 2nd oldest. I burnt him out and regret it. I wonder how much your advisor knows about HOD or is she just flipping through the catalogue? Trust us experienced HOD users, it's way better to go lower and use the extensions than to go high and tweak it down.

[gatory7]

So if my son completes RtR in 5th he will be one year ahead of schedule according to the HoD packs?

I am not sure we'll continue to homeschool after 8th grade. We are praying fervently about whether to let him experience high school in a public school. Our son has made mention of wanting to stop after 8th grade. I want to make sure he's ready and capable of handling advanced work (and independent learning) when he gets to 9th grade, though, regardless of whether it's in a public school classroom or not. I am so leery of not preparing him well for the workload he'll face. If he enters honors/advanced placement programs like his dad and I went through years ago, I know how tough it is. I know I myself felt inadequately prepared for it. (I was not homeschooled.)

[Gwenny]

Preparing is an awesome guide! I would put your youngest there for sure.

[Nealewill]

I think your kids - if they continue on with HOD - will be more than prepared for whatever they/you choose in life. HOD is very rigorous.