Singapore 5 & 6

[farmfamily]

My oldest is in Singapore 5a & math is drudgery to her. She has always disliked math - even in first grade. I do not allow her to complain, but math is always something endured rather than enjoyed. It is hard for me to watch, since I like math (I majored in math in college). Her math skills are okay - I think Singapore is doing all right with that, excepting a few lessons (we've been doing fractions lately) where there are conceptual leaps. My daughter is VERY resistant to me pulling out the HIG or doing anything that isn't in the textbook if she isn't getting it. She insists on trying to solve the problems herself, which can take a long time & leave her close to tears. At other times, (especially when a new concept is introduced), the lesson can seem (to me) to be ridiculously easy and sometimes in 4th grade she was done with math in less than 5 minutes. Those are the only days she is happy with math! That doesn't seem to be happening much in level 5 & it seems like there are more Practice & Review (Textbook only) days. We are not enjoying math & I fear for level 6, which I hear is also hard.

I have considered switching either to Math Mammoth (because she likes being independent), or slowing down with Singapore (skipping geometry related lessons) and adding Rightstart geometry part time. About the only time she ever enjoyed math was in Rightstart when there were drawing lessons & this geometry course uses drawing to practice middle school math. I've looked at the samples for Rightstart G & it looks much more "living" than Singapore, with lots of tidbits about the history of math & interesting bunny trails about math. It is also written to be done independently by the student, so she would like that. (Of course, I would help, but I would come alongside, instead of "teaching"). I am thinking it might spark an interest or even a slight enjoyment of math.

We originally switched to Singapore in level 3a because lessons were shorter than in Rightstart (the only other math she has done). She is now part way through 5a & if we keep going as is will finish by the end of 5th grade

So, has anyone turned a math-phobic child into someone who likes math? Or should I just give up & keep plugging away as we are - at least she is learning...

[MomtoJGJE]

Honestly, 5 was the absolute worst year for my oldest who dislikes math. It took us forever to get through (we go on our own pace for math). It took us a full 12 months easily to do 5A/B. However we just started 6A 3 weeks ago... we've had 3-4 days where we didn't do school in that time, so say 12 days where she did math. Maybe less, but we will go with 12. She's done through lesson 13 already. Now I have no idea what the future will hold. 6B might take us a full year in itself but right now, 6A is going MUCH better than 5A/B did.

I guess I'm just saying to take heart. It won't necessarily be awful forever

[StephanieU]

What grade is your daughter in? If she is in 5th grade (or even 6th), I would just slow Singapore down to half speed. There is no reason to push to get done with 6B before the end of 7th grade, and really there isn't a need to push to get done before the end of 8th grade. If you complete 6B in 8th grade, she will be ready for Algebra 1 as a 9th grader, which is normal. I would be hesitant to switch programs as it may cause more issues since scopes and sequences won't align perfectly.

[Gwenny]

I agree with just slowing down a little bit. I also would not let her be so resistant to you pulling out helps and you giving more instruction and help. I would talk about having a teachable spirit and that it is pride to act like that. It is a fool who despises instruction. I can relate to this, in myself and in at least one of my children. Typically those first-borns have a little trouble with that. This might be a good time to deal with a heart issue. (or I could be off base!)

Blessings!

[Nealewill]

You and I must be related as is our girls! I started with RightStart with my kids actually switched my dd over to Singapore this year because RightStart was frustrating us.

With RightStart I used up through Level E with my oldest and I did purchase Level G to use this year but ended up throwing in the towel. I found that I had to sit with too long and don't really feel like she gained enough skills to keep moving forward. She did well in level B through D but when she got to level E, it was just too many new things at one time and her lesson was taking her 45 min or longer to finish. It was just too much! This year, I thought about doing Singapore so I decided to start her lower. I started her in Level 4A because level E in RightStart covered all the topics taught through Level 4A - 5B. My dd understood some of these topics but she wasn't as proficient as I think she needed to be. With us, we started this summer with level 4A. It was SO easy for her! After she finished level 4A, I then bought RightStart Level G. She could do it on her own. I did have to help her some. She was completing 3 lessons a week according to the way that RightStart has them do that level. We were on track but I could tell she really didn't understand. RightStart did not teach her how to multiply decimals well, reduce fractions to lowest common terms well, she could add like fractions but never learned steps on how to do it. I felt complete overwhelmed by some of the probability and statistic problems because they were so advanced. I showed a friend the dice problem and that was the exact same problem in her son's prealgebra Saxon book! These were all things she did when she was 9. She did finish level E and finished in it a year. She did it well enough. I felt like she should have completely been prepared for Level G. I was very frustrated! And with level RightStart level G, they had a lot of interesting topics. It was a lot of review of things she learned with level E. But it more assumed that she already knew how to do it all, however it was evident she wasn't really understanding what she was doing. She turned into a robot that could complete her assignment but still mess up more simple items I knew she didn't understand. And desperately needed more review with decimals. I ended up switching back to Singapore and started Level 4B around Christmas time. I am so glad I did that. She got daily practice for quite some time with decimals and she now does very well with them. She did come across some reviews in the workbook and the student book where she has to add like fractions. We had a few tears. But I sat with her and showed her how to convert 1/3 + 7/12 so that she could add them together. I drew her a picture of each (with bars and shading) and asked if she needed to make the 3 a 12 or if she could make the 12 a 3. We spent some time on it. She had to draw pictures for each and then she also had to practice multiply both the top and bottom number by the same number. I feel like because Singapore has the student book to look at it, it really helps her. We do everything in the student book first according to the plans and then I have her do everything in her workbook. We haven't made it to level 5 yet. If your dd is having trouble, I am guessing mine will be going slow too I am mathy but my oldest is not For me, I prefer Singapore. I feel like the student book is actually the difference. I like that Singapore has a text book that we can go back to. RightStart with Level G does have a text book and the student learns alone. But in previous levels they didn't. Also, I do like that Singapore gives the student the steps needed to complete a problem. I feel like with RightStart, it was up to me and her to decide the process (of which wasn't written down formally and we couldn't look back at it again and again when needed). If my dd gets to level 5 and needs more handholding, I am planning to preserver through. My only concern for you to switch back to RightStart would be that you will find the exact same problems you are having here. I don't think you would be happy with it. And I think your dd will actually hate math even more. It is just my opinion so take or leave it for what it is worth. I am just sharing everything that went through my head and heart earlier this year when I made my decision to leave RightStart permanently. But I do think that math skills taught in Singapore 4 through 5 are foundational for higher level math. If your dd can't do them In Singapore, she probably won't be able to do them in RightStart level G either. Plus, some of these things are covered as indepthly so you may find at the end of Level G, you didn't accomplish what you were look to as well and have an even longer bridge to cross. I do know that VideoText does cover a lot of these topics though in their program so I think that is what RightStart is banking on. Kids will see in it VideoText A for a final go around before algebra. If you bent on switching, I would look to Level E. It taught a lot of these skills that your dd is having trouble with. If you already did that level, then to me, that is even more of a sign to stick with Singapore. I would let math be hard for another year or two and push through rather than jump back. I think in the end you will be happier with Singapore (and richer) than you would be if you switched back to RightStart.

[farmfamily]

Wow! Thank you so much for all your responses!

Nealewill - it was very helpful to read about your daughter's experiences, especially with Rightstart G. The more I think about it, the more I think you are right that it would not be a good fit for my dd either. She likes her math straightforward & quick.

Gwenny - you certainly hit the nail on the head with your "teachable spirit" comment. I have had that talk with my daughter on numerous occasions before & I probably need to do it again next time I want to pull out the HIG. She does not naturally have a "teachable spirit" with me, and that is the most challenging thing about homeschooling her. I think she is getting better on this, but she still has good days and bad days (it is amazing how teachable she is when others teach her).

Back to math - I really like the look of Videotext Algebra & I really think I want to do that program once we get to Algebra. I called them today and they said they don't recommend Singapore for the elementary grades, but they feel that Rightstart math is the best program for explaining things conceptually. I do feel that my daughter has a very good conceptual feel for the topics we covered in Rightstart (we did the first 4 levels of Rightstart). He also recommended Math-U-See. I looked again at both programs and saw that my daughter has not covered many topics in their 4th & 5th grade level curricula. It would feel like backing up to switch. Really she would place in Rightstart E, which is where she would have been if we hadn't done Singapore 3a-5a (she completed Rightstart A through most of D). I thought Singapore was supposed to be ahead of other curricula, but it seems that many important topics (prime numbers, probability, graphing, percents, negative numbers, geometry topics,etc) have not been covered in Singapore through 5a, while they have been in other curricula at the same level. So Stephanie, you are right about the scope and sequence not lining up.

Honestly my daughter is not doing too badly in Singapore. I feel she sometimes doesn't really understand the math (or want to understand it). For instance I think she just knows by rote how to do long division or work with fractions. But, considering her lack of motivation, I think she is doing very well with the actual work! I would like her to be well prepared for Videotext, though, and I'm not thrilled with the emphasis that I hear Singapore has in level 6 with many challenging word problems using bar models (a particular hatred of hers), while not covering other important math topics.

As for slowing down, I don't really love the idea because I don't think she is spending too long on math - actually she rushes through it. And I don't want to drag out Singapore. What I would really like is something really interesting & conceptual to bridge the gap between Singapore 5a and Videotext. Maybe it doesn't exist...

[Nealewill]

You could always finish the Singapore 5 series if you want or finish Singapore 5A at the very least. I do also think that VideoText and RightStart are very linked together. IMHO, VideoText will always push people to RightStart. I asked Tom Clark at the homeschool convention about his thoughts on Singapore vs RightStart and he actually said that both were great. But he no longer owns VideoText. I think somehow they connection with eachother and going to push each other's programs. On a side note though - I do know a few families who have used Singapore up through 6B and their kids have moved straight into VideoText with no issues and done very well. I personally, after seeing how RightStart wasn't really sticking in my oldest dd's brain as well, decided that because RS and VT are so closely tied, that I think I am no longer going to entertain any thoughts of VideoText. I do think it is a great program, but I just don't know that I think it is the path I want. I am planning to use Foersters for Algebra 1, use the Geometry program HOD recommends and then use whatever program they recommend for Algebra 2 that is in book form. I have a few reasons. One is, that my oldest didn't do so well with just having the conceptual understanding. Her math took way to long and she just didn't retain as much as I would have liked. I feel like Foeresters does a fantastic job of explain tough concepts. I also like that Foeresters is book based. There are videos but I love the text book. I do think that my oldest appears to be a very visual learner. IMHO, she needs that text. She understands better with the texts. VideoText does a have a text book that you can print but I think I just like the text of Foeresters better. I also decided to not do VideoText because I do not want my kids to learn all of Algebra and then move to Geometry, Trig and Pre-Cal. I want them to study Algebra, do some Geometry and then come back and see the Algebra again. VideoText assumes that kids will master the content so well that they won't need to see it again. That didn't work so well for me in the past with RS and don't know that I think this will be a good fit for the future.

One thing you may consider doing is playing some of the math games that RightStart has. My kids still do that. Honestly, they get the math games out and just play them for fun! The math games book would have come with Level C anyway so you should have everything you need. If your dd is struggling with Fractions so much, pull out the book and play some games. I found that conceptually, my dd got it. But once she got challenging problems to tackle (especially with Singapore), that is when she couldn't apply it. Also, because your dd is struggling so much with the fractions (that is really the only area I think I remember you focusing on), RS is making a Level F - Fractions. It may already be available for purchase. You could just purchase that level only if you wanted. It is mainly game based but it does have a student text as well.

I do think you know your dd best. If you feel like Singapore isn't working, then by all means I encourage you to find something that will works. Sometimes sticking it out is best. But if you feel like it is a total flop and not working at all, then I would consider switching. For me, I personally feel like Singapore has more of what I need than RightStart. I also am thinking that even if you didn't do Singapore 6A and 6B, you could always do VideoText Level A even without doing any of the other levels of VideoText. Level A is pre-algebra. This would give you a taste of their program. It would possibly help your dd in areas she may have missed or not understood. Honestly, I go over things with my dd all the time that she "understands" but just need that extra help with memorizing some steps. I used to think it was horrible to focus on memorizing anything. I am not a huge fan of rote memorization still. But I am no longer scared of the thought of some memorization. I have seen it help and go a long way. I feel like anything my dd has memorized, she understands why it works because I make sure of that. But she just needs steps to help her move through with less frustration.

I will be praying for you though. There is nothing more frustrating than being a place where you feel trapped with nowhere to go.

[farmfamily]

Thank you so much for your advice & your prayers are appreciated!

I haven't been able to go to any conventions & haven't seen any of these algebra programs, but since my oldest is not always easy to teach, the video format of Videotext really appeals to me. When I saw it was recommended by both Carrie and Rightstart I figured that it would be the one for us! I like your suggestion of trying Module A first to see if it really is a good fit.

You may be on to something on the Rightstart-Videotext connection. I hadn't thought of that.

Singapore is not really a flop for us. I am starting to resignedly plan on continuing. I don't see a better option.

Perhaps the biggest thing I'm getting out of all this math soul-searching, is that we need to keep working on her having a teachable spirit during math.

Funny you mention the Rightstart games. I just pulled out my games book today to try and figure out which ones would be good for us to try.

[Nealewill]

Did you know that Foerester's also comes with Videos too? Just curious.

Sounds like you have a good plan though My dd is only in 4B right now - practically finished!!!! Yeah!!!! If I have enough time before Foeresters, I probably will do VT Level A if I can. I do like the thought of a having a more traditional pre-algebra just to visit exponents, decimals, percentages and the likes one more time before going to Foeresters. So we will see how much time I have before we get to Algebra. Also - with each child, when I let them go into Algebra will be different. I always thought that my kids would just go into Algebra 1 in 8th grade. That is what I did so I figured that is what they would all do. Well.....I have since changed my thoughts. If my oldest isn't ready for Algebra until 9th grade, we will do VT level A and No-nonse Algebra before Foerester. I just want to make sure my oldest is ready for it if that makes sense. My younger two seem to have no trouble at all with math and seem to be just like me.

I will say though, being young in school myself, I took Calculus AP as a senior in High School and that was the only math class I ever struggled with. I actually entered college prepared to get a math degree. Because I did get credit for the engineering Calculus 1 & 2 with my AP class, I was able to enter Calc 3 going in. Uhm....I totally failed that class. I switched majors my 2nd quarter in to be an accountant. Fast forward a bit with my life (I had already received my BBA and MSBA in Accounting by this time), after the birth of my oldest, I still worked and my husband stayed home with our daughter. I worked for a University in their accounting department and got free tuition. I had absolutely no intentions of homeschooling but figured that if I went back to school to be a high school math teacher, then I could be home with my kids for the summer. I had to retake Calc 1 & 2 because I honestly didn't remember anything. I retook them and took Calc 3 & 4 - I got all As!!! Just being older I think made my brain ready for that challenging thinking. I ended up having my second child after I finished Calc 4 and ended up quitting my job anyway (my husband went to work full time instead). So taking those classes never really amounted to anything other than God teaching me that age does help. I have had other classes as well that I noticed were easier to understand as an adult. Biology and Physics are examples. I got Cs and Bs in High School and have since taught them at my co-op easily with full understanding. And honeestly, when I first started homeschooling, I had not had any of these revelations - I was all about having my kids ahead in every subject. By golly, I was even mean spirited about it as I was never actually accepting of people when they said they "taught their kids at their pace." I wasn't mean to them but inwardly I was horrible. I just used to think they weren't very ambitious parents and that they were screwing up their kids. Well, God fixed and healed my spirit here too My oldest ended up with mild dyslexia and my son has auditory processing disorder. After I finished giving myself a concussion from banging my head against the wall so much, God really taught me that kids NEED to go at their pace! I basically was Saul turned into Paul in their kids SHOULD go at their own pace. I really applaud all those parents God put in my path that kept tell me over and over again the importance of being in tune to my kids and their natural bends. I think that is why HOD works so well for me. My kids are placed at their "level" and they go from there. Every one is set up for success. Now I don't necessarily think that you are pushing your daughter too hard or anything like that. Please don't receive that message because that is not the one I am trying to send. I am just sharing all of this to encourage you in the event that you do decide to slow down. Your daughter and mine are the same age. And it does sometimes give me anxiety to go slower in some things. But God has been SO good to me and gracious that I can't help be humbled and trust him in the works he will do in my kids. For me, the big challenge has been reading. With dyslexia and APD, spelling and reading are probably my kids toughest subjects and areas. I am just trust that God will help here too. And no matter what, I will just keep them at their level so that they are always progressing but never stressed out if that makes sense.

I am glad you are feeling better though and that you are thinking about sticking it out with Singapore. I agree that there is no "perfect" curriculum for math. But I think it is because kids are very different. I feel the same way about reading and spelling But I see improvement every year and I am happy with that. I have my kids tested every other year and they all score very high. So I must be doing something right

[farmfamily]

Thank you so much for the encouragement!

I didn't know that Foerster's had a video component. I will have to look into that program too.

I actually had the opposite experience with taking calculus in high school. At my high school calculus students also had to take a semester of analysis (pre-calculus) before they could take calculus. So I had one and a half years on calculus. When I got to college and majored in math I found that my college took a single semester to cover the same material that I had taken a year and a half to do. I always felt that those who had taken no calculus before they got there were at a distinct disadvantage.

On the other hand, I do think that you are right that going at our child's pace is one of the major advantages of home-schooling. I actually think that under her negativity, my daughter is really pretty good at math. The more I think about it, the more I think that the negativity is her main problem. Perhaps slowing down and adding some fun games might brighten the outlook for her a little. I have already decided that I am going to prayerfully take her aside and talk to her about her attitude towards math.

I was talking to my mother and she reminded me that I didn't really like math when I was in the elementary grades. Nor did I do very well. I remember being the last person in my class to master my multiplication tables. Even today mental arithmetic is not my forte. My husband (who dropped out of calculus b/c it was too hard) is WAY quicker at mental arithmetic than I am. It wasn't until I got to algebra that I actually started to like math. But as soon as I got to algebra and then high school, including calculus, I did great. I even got the "math award" for my grade. So I won't give up hope that my daughter may some day actually like math!

[farmfamily]

Apparently math is in the air! The top five threads are all related to math in the middle grades...

[Nealewill]

Ha ha - math is definitely in the air

[Gwenny]

I'm looking for a free math tutor who comes to my house everyday for math for all of my children.......dreamland....

[Nealewill]

I just wanted make on last comment about your concern with Singapore vs other traditional math programs.

Singapore 5B does spend quite a bit of time on Percentages and Geometry. In addition, RightStart does not cover indepthly multiplication of fractions and never covers division of fractions. RightStart also barely talks about the metric system. I love that Singapore covers it frequently as this will be needed significantly in Chemistry (most Chemistry problem use the metric system and there is a ton of conversions in Chemistry). Mastering conversions now is so helpful.

I will also say that Singapore and RightStart do not follow in anyway the traditional scope and sequence compared to any program. Also - many people I know have said that their kids cover the same topics in math for 5th, 6th and even 7th grade. There is hardly anything new introduced until pre-algebra. But even with that, if your child did a good job with 5th through 7th grade math, then pre-algebra is a breeze because it is basically a final culmination of the same information to be sure kids know it and understand it before moving on.

As for negative numbers and exponents, I have hear that Singapore doesn't teach it. That could be done in a day. RightStart did teach it and I think we spent just a couple of days on it. She understood immediately. In addition, I have already talked with my kids about squares and things to the 3rd. It just came up in natural conversation with my middle child but RightStart taught it to my oldest. My son literally had no problem with squares because the number make a perfect square. As for volume, I showed him with blocks how multiplying something to the 3rd. And I think our conversation only came about because right after he learned divisions he said, "Mom, there is adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. Are there any other things I am going to learn?" So I told him he will learn about exponents. He walked away telling me that was easy . But if you don't want to do VT A (and I know it does cover negatives and exponents), the Key to Algebra series has a series of 10 workbooks for kids to work through. I think the first 2 or 3 of them are pre-algebra topics and cover these things as well.

As you can see - I have researched several math programs so far I was struggling last year with what to do! So I read and read and read every review I could possibly find. Many pre-algebra programs I found would be pointless and easy after Singapore 6B. I also found many would not be a good fit as they focused to much on rote memorization and not enough thinking. So anyway, just thought I would share yet another finding.

[MomtoJGJE]

SM so far doesn't flat out say "here is how you multiply exponents" but they do teach area. Area of a flat surface is just squaring numbers and area of a cube is just cubing numbers. We discussed exponents at that point.