Should we split - 1 excelling, 1 lagging in same guide

[StahlMom4]

We are a few weeks into C2C for my 9yo dd (4th grade) and 11yo ds (6th grade). It is our 3rd year homeschooling. At the beginning with a 2nd & 4th grader ages 7 & 9 it made sense in speaking with HOD to just put them together in the same guide -- Bigger. I knew my son was advanced in his learning but teaching them together sounded far better than doing 2 guides. Both guides we've completed (Bigger & Prep) and where we placed him for math, english, & reading all seemed to be below his level, but he has continued to independently advance. His past 2 years have been:

*reading -- completed DITHOR level 3, skipped level 4/5 to catch him up to his level, completed level 5/6, now starting level 6/7 (good fit).
*math -- in 2 years completed Singapore math 3b-6b. Started him in Saxon 8/7 this year and super easy so far.
*grammar -- has completed R&S 3 & 4, currently do 5. Decided not to do 1/2 pace with writing, but continue full speed to start him on R&S 6 next year.

I was fine with all of this thinking it was just a price he has to pay in order to make life easy and allow him to go through with his sister. HOWEVER, since starting C2C his sister is really struggling. The Ancient World book is too difficult for her to read independently & comprehend, written narration too difficult to complete on own, struggles doing science questions on her own. Her past 2 years have been:

*reading -- completed 2nd half of emergering, level 2 & level 3 pack, now starting level 4/5.
*math -- finishing up 3b, still struggling with multiplication facts 3-5, unable to do 6-9.
*grammer -- completed R&S level 2 & 3, currently doing level 4. Its difficult for her but she's making it.

The gap between them seems to be getting bigger and bigger. So I have been READING & READING HOD message boards for advice. I hadn't even looked into the future for my soon to see he would be 10th grade before starting high school when he is an advanced learner until I read the boards. Therefore, I am considering having him skip C2C and start him on R2R, but in all my reading I never seen where it is encouraged to skip a guide, though it appears many do. I have a 4 & 5 year old and will start the LH guide with them next year, currently teaching Pre-K & K with them on my own. I am my church's children's pastor and bookkeeper & involved in many things that cannot be cut.

PLEASE HELP -- Should I keep pushing dd along, helping her with "I" boxes as I'm sure she can make it, or allow her to slow down and splite dc up? And is it best to just split them up anyway due to my son's skill levels? On placement chart, he can do R2R . . . but does that mean I skip a guide and move him there? Is life too hectic when you do this? Is it ever encouraged?

[LynnH]

Reading your post it sounds like right now neither of your dc is properly placed. It sounds like if you give a fresh look to the placement chart that your ds fits into RTR-is that right? If he is finding CTC very easy and he places solidly in RTR then I might consider skipping CTC. I have seen that recommended on rare occasions. For your dd I would most definitely drop to half speed and stretch the guide out. You have plenty of time to do that since she is a guide "ahead". To help her I would do the History reading with her trading off with you reading a section/paragraph and then she reads. Then you can slowly increase the amount she is reading on her own. Give her guidance with the written narrations and then slowly give less guidance. Remember the goal is by the end of CTC she would be independent with all the boxes marked as such. She doesn't have to be there yet.

I don't know if this is a struggle for you, but if I were in your situation I would find it hard to have realistic expectations for her if I had another one in the guide that was advanced for the guide and therefore making everything look easy. It would be hard to remember she is only 9 and to keep my expectations to what I would expect for her age. I don't know if that makes sense or not. It could be she is feeling inadequate compared to her brother also so having her own guide might allow her to blossom.

[MomtoJGJE]

I would split...

What I might do is to go half speed 4 days per week with your dd in CTC (since she's done Bigger and Preparing) and keep going full speed with your ds. If possible I'd do an extra day per week, so 5 days instead of 4. That way you can separate them fairly easily, still keep him moving forward incrementally, and allow your dd to blossom on her own.

However I probably would check out the placement chart simply looking at where your ds would place. If at that point you feel he really is ready for RtR, then you could simply start him there. Look at it as if you were coming to HOD from another program RIGHT NOW and see where he places. Because it seems like you realize RIGHT NOW that they shouldn't be combined.

[Nealewill]

I also think it sounds like they should be split up as well.

But I might do things a little bit differently in how you split them. Since it sounds like the reading in CTC is very difficult for your daughter, who is 9 years old and in 4th grade so I probably wouldn't keep her in CTC. CTC is a wonderful guide but there is a huge blessing in it when the kids can do a lot of it independently. I also work from home - I teach accounting classes for IWU and I am the treasurer for a local ministry (we have 9 subsidiaries and about $1 million in annual revenue to give you an idea of their size). So I work anywhere from 20 to 50 hours a week depending on the time of year. For me, I need my kids perfectly placed and correctly challenged.

If I were you, first I would think about your daughter in 4th grade. I think she probably places in Preparing this year, however, you just completed that guide. So I would not repeat Preparing this year. But have you thought about having her repeat Bigger and add in the extensions for her to complete? She could read all of the history books to herself, do most of the rotating box alone and then do all of the science by herself as well. By adding in the extensions, you would be having her do a volume of workload that is considerably less than CTC but closer or a little more than Preparing. And this would help give her an extra year before she completes CTC (plus you already own it so you won't have to buy anything for her). You would still keep grammar and math at her level. She could still do copywork in cursive. And even though she completed this level, her doing it alone would help her build up confidence and build up her skills. Plus it would separate them and give her something she can do well on her own. And with having 2 years that have already passed, she probably won't remember it word for word. She would probably enjoy relearning some of it. Plus, you are adding in the extensions and that will deepen her knowledge on many of the things she already learned about. The only thing I might consider adding into this level is the Igniting Your Writing program. She had writing last year and with CTC, she would be doing writing. It might be good to have her do some writing this year as well. But you could also skip it and just do creative writing next year instead. It is just a thought. And then once she finishes Bigger again, then I would then skip Preparing and go straight back to CTC. And finally - one other reason I recommend stopping CTC and doing a different level is because if you go half speed with CTC for 2 years, I worry that she will feel overwhelmed when you start R2R. R2R is has a higher workload than CTC. So if she is used to a lower workload for a couple of years, then R2R would really frustrate her. By doing Bigger for a full year and then moving to CTC for a full year, you would keep on track for a higher volume of work but also give a year to build up her confidence so that she knows she can get that workload done too.

As for your son, I would also take a fresh look at the placement chart and see what you think. But I do know there are many families who use HOD where their kids won't be finishing the last guide or two. And that is okay Realistically, the writing in the WG guide is a 10th grade writing program. Many resources used by HOD in general are listed for multi grades. If you son skips the last guide, then it really won't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. However, I would also assess how he is doing this year. Is he easily completing his guide with no struggle at all or does it seem to be very balanced for him? If he is easily completing his guide and isn't challenged, then skipping CTC would be fine. But if he seems very correctly placed, I personally wouldn't skip. The volume of workload gets to be more and more each year. You won't want to frustrate him by a significant increase in workload. From what I remember, the two guides that seem to be the most similar in level are Rev to Rev and MTMM. If you were going to skip a guide because your son was ready for high school, MTMM would probably be the best guide to skip. So if it were me, I probably would not skip CTC, R2R or Rev to Rev. I would skip MTMM if you wanted him to start the WG guide in 9th grade and he was ready for it on the placement chart.

I will pray for you though It is hard working and homeschooling. I know with my kids, having them placed correctly in their guide is paramount to me having a good day versus a bad day. Right now I spend about 4.5 hours teaching my kids each day and that is with me running 3 guides. I really can't spend any more time than that. So I will pray for you that figure out a good fit for both of your kids.

[my3sons]

Hi StahlMom4, and welcome to the HOD Board! These ladies have all given such awesome advice worth praying about. I want to first encourage you - sometimes when it seems that a difficult decision is ahead of me, I realize after having to make it that actually it was an incredible blessing sent straight from our loving Savior! When I am in doubt and needing clarity, sometimes He provides that clarity for me in ways that at first make me squirm a little because I like to dig in my heels and drag my feet when it comes to change. So, perhaps this is just a blessing sent to you right from the Lord so you are SURE about this change.

I do believe a split would be a good thing. However, 3 quick questions...
1) Please describe each of your dc's writing abilities (How much do they write at a time comfortably? How are their written narrations? How are they doing with WWTB in CTC?)
2) How much of PHFHG did your dd do when you think back specifically to each part of the plans? Were you helping her more than you realized back then, or did she do pretty much all of the guide as it is written?)
3) How well does ds work independently? Could he do the "I" boxes of RTR (if he fits there) on his own?

If you could look at the first page of the placement chart with totally fresh eyes, and if you threw out what they've done so far, which guide do each of them seem to place best in? Maybe even print the first page of the chart, one for each of them, and focus on just one of them at a time, circling where they seem to fall right now. Throw out the history cycle and the guides they've done previously, and what do you find?

One thing stood out to me here. Your dd is bright. She is doing very well for her age - VERY well! And I bet she doesn't realize that. Being in the shadow of big brother excelling and finding everything too easy would be tough. She needs to shine this year! And ds needs some independence and challenge. I think moving him up to RTR (if his writing and independent skills are up to par to do it), would fill that need to challenge him you are obviously feeling. It would allow you to take a more realistic speed with his R & S English pacing and Math pacing, because the rest of the guide will challenge him aplenty. I think your ds would enjoy this increased responsibility and maturity.

In Christ,
Julie

[StahlMom4]

Thank you so much ladies for your excellent responses. You answered with such grace & care for my children. Though the workload scares me tremendously, I agree and believe it be best to split. I looked at the placement guide in detail for my dc from a fresh perspective. I would place my son in Rev2Rev in all but writing. And I would place my dd between Preparing & C2C, but mostly C2C. To answer Julie's questions . . .

1. Writing abilities
--ds dislikes writing the most, but he can do it. He writes his narrations without any trouble last year in Prep & now. I have also had him write book reports for 60+% of his DITHOR reading books which were in that 8-12 sentence paragraph range (in Rev2Rev placement). He dislikes it terribly though. Not much instruction on how to write yet and he analyzes everything and struggles with creativity of what to write.
--dd likes to write. She would write full page narrations in Preparing on her own (when I was reading the history & reviewing questions provided with her). Though her spelling is horrendous, grammar not great, and not lots of attention to detail/mistakes.
2. I believe dd did Preparing as written. Her biggest struggles are R&S grammar & math, and sometimes comprehension as a whole. But she has enjoyed the learning in history & science. She has sensory issues (Sensory Processing Disorder), so lacks lots of focus and needs things changed up a lot. With the busyness of life, I'm not always that accommodating to her.
3. My son can definitely do the "I" boxes independently, likely in RTR as well. He may need help with unfamiliar territory like cooking, etc. but can do it. His only real challenge the past 2 years of homeschooling has been math and that's because I have pushed him through multiple levels to get to his capabilities because it comes so easy to him. He does struggle with DITHOR workbooks a little, wanting to take the easy way out (kinda like his writing). And he's done well with extension both years.

Julie was right in that it wasn't until I saw my daughter struggle a little did I consider splitting them up, and now I see clearly that my son needs to move ahead of her and likely to the next guide. So glad to see that for him and the benefits it can bring to my dd. But what to do with my dd? Nealewill gave an interesting suggestion to consider of moving her to do Bigger independently, anyone done that before. Or I can slow her down in C2C, or work through C2C at normal speed with her more closely. I want to be sure not to help her along too much allowing her to not develop the independent skills though. In C2C she currently struggles with history comprehension (except when discussing Bible history), narrations when comprehension isn't there (of course), prophecy page in student notebook, Bible relevance question in Science, and then the right side -- math, grammar, dictation, DITHOR workbook.

All advice is so appreciated. Reading your responses choked me up and tremendously helped relieve the burden of this, even without a decision fully made. God will help us no matter the choice & help bring resources to do it. Thank you so much!!

[Nealewill]

Do you think that if she wasn't pressured to keep up with big bro that she may eventually grow into the skills? My dd is doing CTC this year as well and we had to slow it down for the first couple of weeks. It is a lot more reading and the vocabulary is increased. We are on unit 5 now. We are FINALLY (like in the last week) able to go full speed with minimal problems. I personally think that if you feel she will grow into the skills needed to complete the guide within the next month or two, then I would probably stick with CTC and just slow it down for a bit. But if it seems like she can't do any of it on her own and that she won't be growing into it soon, then I would probably take time off of that level and come back. That is just me though. But from what you shared, I am guessing that she is probably in the process of growing into it now.

Also, I have not modified Bigger myself but I have slightly modified Little Hearts. My youngest dd is gifted and she reads better, writes better, draws better and comprehends better than her 8 year old brother. So why did I not put them together you may ask? Well, as the kids get older and go up in level, the guides get more mature in topic. Even though she can do stuff that 3rd and 4th graders can do, she is still only 6 years old. Last year was my first year with HOD and I put her and her brother together in Beyond. They had a great year. I could have definitely bumped her up to Bigger as she is ready. But we started Beyond when she was 5 and wasn't in the age range. If I put her in Bigger, she wouldn't be in the age range again. So after much prayer, my husband and I felt like we should split the two younger kids up (there were other reasons for splitting them - mainly that we didn't want them competing against each other and comparing everything they did with each other). So with my youngest, she is actually reading all of the history to herself, she reads the story time burgess books to herself, and she reads the science to herself. She also does a weekly history notebooking entry and a weekly science notebooking entry. She also writes up her lab notes for her experiments. She completes spelling, R&S and cursive with her brother. She copies her Bible verses each week. She has a time line. At Christmas I plan to start DITHOR with her brother and I will probably do it with her as well. She has already read a few of the Level 3 bookpack books so I know she is ready to read the level 2 books. But if she isn't interested in doing it, then I will just wait. Basically, I modified Little Hearts to look just like Bigger. And no - I am not crazy. This kid is a workhorse and loves doing school work. If I didn't give her all this stuff to do, she would drive me crazy with having me give her something else to do. And no - my other two kids don't like school nearly this much LOL. For me, I have been very happy with my decision to modify Little Hearts to fit her better. And she is very happy to do her own thing. This has been a good fit for us.

[farmfamily]

I have a similar situation to yours except that my 2 girls are a year younger than your ds & dd. Last year (2nd and 4th grade) I had them combined in Bigger and I realized I had the same problem you are describing. For my younger one Bigger was a real challenge, and as I looked at Preparing it just seemed like too much for her right now, both in reading and writing (she is allergic to writing). My oldest was ready for more and just itching to be more independent. She also started changing - getting more emotional and having attitude problems with school that she had never had before. This was making school a negative experience for younger sister (and me). At about Unit 20 I had had enough. I knew she was perfectly capable of doing Bigger almost entirely independently, so I let her do that and moved my younger one to Bigger half speed. I would say that Bigger worked pretty well done independently. She did all the readings and notebooking herself and I helped her with the experiments and a few other things. She also read the extensions, but I didn't have her do any follow-ups. While she is still sometimes moody, having her do school more independently and separately has been really a very positive thing for her. Now she sometimes even comes rushing over eagerly to tell me about something she read in her science book or history where before she would have been sitting there rolling her eyes while I read aloud or while younger sister asked questions. As soon as she finished Bigger she went straight to CTC where she belonged according to the placement chart. Skipping Preparing was no problem and CTC is just perfect for her now as a fifth grader. I can see she relishes her new found independence and CTC makes her feel more grown up.

My second child will finish Bigger tomorrow! I have decided not to put her in Preparing yet, but to have her repeat most of Beyond with some beef-ups and additions to make it more like Bigger. This decision was made easy for me by the fact that little brother is currently doing Beyond. She will join him for her third grade year. Currently these two work much better together than my older two. But I am learning that family dynamics can change, so this may not always be the case. She could start Preparing half speed if the Beyond plan doesn't work out well.

I don't regret the time that my two girls spent in the same guide - I think their Beyond year was our most enjoyable homeschooling year yet - but I am so glad I made the choice to separate them. It has been so good for my oldest to have her own guide & I look forward to easing up a little on my second born b/c I fear at times I have pushed her to keep up. As the guides get more independent, combining loses some of its advantages for mom, since book sharing for independent books becomes more of an issue and hand-holding/hovering from mom is less needed.

I hope my experience may be of some help to you, and I'm saying a prayer for you tonight as these choices can be tough.

[my3sons]

Thanks so much for sharing about your dd and ds, and for patiently answering all of my questions! I think your ds can move into RTR for sure. That seems like the right placement for him, and with him being in 6th grade, that will set him up beautifully to do the the first HOD high school guide, World Geography, for 9th grade. A few things you'd mentioned about your ds sparked a memory of mine about my oldest ds, Wyatt. He was (and remains) a very good student. As my oldest, and our first to be homeschooled, I wanted to make sure he was working at an 'optimal challenge level' all of the time. If he finished something early (early on in homeschooling), I'd add more to his plate. One day he lagged finishing his work, and when I asked why, he told me, "Why would I want to finish? You just give me more work." It made me want to cry because I knew that was true. That changed my approach. Instead of adding more, fast forwarding, pushing him, I just did what was in the guide, and I did not expect more than Carrie suggested in the plans. He was so happy! He went back to really enjoying school again, and to finishing earlier to go on to explore his own interests (or just get outdoors and enjoy God's creation). Maybe I'm totally off base here, but with your ds doing Saxon 8/7, full-speed R & S 5 doing 6 next year, extra book reports for DITHOR, extensions though he's on the young side for them - words like "pushed through" and "struggled", etc. take me back to the feeling both Wyatt and I had that was stealing our joy. Again, if I'm just reliving my past, just forget I mentioned it, but if there is some connection between what you and your ds have going on right now and what me and my ds had going on years back, I'd just say I'd love for you to just breathe... to get to fully enjoying your homeschooling year with your ds by giving him a load that fits his age and also his capabilities without putting too much on his plate. It has made my relationship as 'teacher' with my ds a blessing, with an easier rapport, and it has also impacted how he views me as his 'mother.' RTR without extensions, DITHOR as is, a portion of R & S English, math slowed down - all of that may be just the breath of fresh air the two of you would love! Just disregard all of this part if it does not apply.

Now for dd. You'd mentioned what she is struggling with - thank you so much for sharing! The history side of the plans that she is struggling with could be her just needing to grow into those areas. I know both of our sons had a growing period at the start of CTC. But, the right side of the plans - math, grammar, dictation, DITHOR - those are areas we want her to be pretty accurately placed right from the beginning of the school year. You'd mentioned this in your first post (I'm putting this here for me to refer to more than you )...
*reading -- completed 2nd half of emergering, level 2 & level 3 pack, now starting level 4/5.
*math -- finishing up 3b, still struggling with multiplication facts 3-5, unable to do 6-9.
*grammer -- completed R&S level 2 & 3, currently doing level 4. Its difficult for her but she's making it.

*How is level 4/5 going for her in DITHOR? Would 2/3 (at least in the Student Book be a better fit - it was for my middle ds)?
*In math, my 11 yo is doing 4B, and I think it's tough enough. My oldest moved from 6B into 1 semester of DM 7A, and then right into high school level Algebra 1 (with honors) Foerster's Math as a 9th grader. No need to rush, I guess is what I'm saying. Singapore math is advanced!!! Maybe you could look at math placement with fresh eyes and give her the free placement test at http://www.singaporemath.com? Or, maybe you just know as her mom which level she really places well in anyway. Either way, could you share what math level you think she places best at?
*R & S 4 Grammar IS tough. She's fairly young to be doing it. But, what is most difficult about it for her? Would 3 be a better placement when considering placement with fresh eyes?

No matter what - I'd not do full-speed CTC with her. I'll narrow the options down to half-speed CTC or BHFHG at least (IMHO), if that helps in anyway. I don't want dd to struggle or have a difficult time with her school - I want her to be soaring!!! Thanks so much for your patience here - this is so important - an entire year of your life and their life - I want it to be wonderful! Placement makes that big of a difference... so worth the time.

In Christ,
Julie

[StahlMom4]

You ladies are amazing. My heart feels such comfort reading all your words of care, grace, and desire for greatness for my family! Once I saw my son could be place in Rev2Rev and along with your comments I knew I should move him, so I am looking to purchase new curriculum as soon as we're able. Julie -- you are EXACTLY right about pushing my son. I will take your advice & ease up on him! He just recently turned 11 & so is a very young 6th grader too. And he has said the very same thing. He is looking forward to his very own guide and going on his own. He believes he'll get done much quicker w/o waiting on sister.

You've all helped me get my thoughts clear and organized. So after more consideration, I believe my daughter can grow into C2C. This week we're reading familiar Bible stores in Ancient History and she did great on her written narration and did science without help. So we will slow it down possibly 1/2 or even not so much. What relief you have helped me see she will likely feel when brother isn't flying through it next to her. That choice will benefit both of them. I am looking to move her away from Singapore math and will ensure she's properly placed. "Fresh eyes" is such great advice! Though she is reading 4/5, I think she can move down to level 2/3 workbook if needed. And grammar can be taken 1/2 speed. She's doing ok with it.

I must say we have not enjoyed homeschooling as much as I've read that others have, so I'm really taking all your words to heart and believing I can be intentional about some changes and bring more joy to it. I'll ease up on them and me realizing all doesn't have to have perfect cut corners.

farmfamily -- your post was encouraging, thank you. And something I will also keep in mind as I have an advanced almost 6yo dd that is waiting for her 4yo brother to reach K next year to start LH. Though may I never do 4 guides, 3 is sounding overwhelming for next year already.

Julie -- I want our year to be wonderful too!! Hard to think those words could describe it. The past week has been inspiring. I really want them to "soar" as well. I'm looking forward to a new approach and a great year! And I'm very grateful for your and others support.

[Nealewill]

I must say we have not enjoyed homeschooling as much as I've read that others have, so I'm really taking all your words to heart and believing I can be intentional about some changes and bring more joy to it. I'll ease up on them and me realizing all doesn't have to have perfect cut corners.

I just want to be encouraged in that just because other people post about how great their days are and how much they love HOD, sometimes we all struggle. I do love HOD and feel like I finally have found the curriculum that will last me the long haul. However, I came from curriculum that was very traditional and very textbooky. For my family, this was not a good fit and everyone was miserable. However, I never envisioned that God's plan would be HOD for me either because my oldest has mild dyslexia and my son has auditory processing issues (I serious can't tell you how many times I have praised God that my youngest is gifted for these reasons alone!) For me, some days are great and some are not. Sometimes there is crying at my house and sometimes it is me doing the crying. (although now that I have found HOD, the crying is MUCH less.) And for the first couple of years that I did homeschool, I was also miserable. Nothing went like I thought it would. Everything was so much harder for my kids than my friends and I just didn't understand why. I actually called the schools a few times and was ready to enroll them.

But for whatever reason, I never did enroll them. Finally I was learning to relax and lean on the Lord. Only then did my days get better. I wish that I had found HOD when my kids were younger but I didn't find them till last year. I think that even if I had found them when kids were younger, I wasn't ready for their philosophy (gentle approach, interesting topics, just the CM approach in general). But I was more of the main stream homeschooling mom where I though you should grab the bull by the horns and shove as much knowledge down a child's throat as possible - I am just being honest here. But by this time God had done a good work in me and I did finally see the beauty and real reason for homeschooling. Now I think my days are so much more enjoyable because I pray about my day EVERYDAY. I pray the Lord fill me for the tasks before me. I pray that the Lord prepare my kids for their day (my kids don't necessarily know I do this but I still pray it). I pray that whatever skills my kids need or tasks they need to complete that the Lord give them a clear and open mind to do it. I pray that God give me the discernment to push my kids when they should be pushed but to back off when they aren't ready. I pray that we don't overfill or overload our day. And pray that the Lord's will be done each day in myself and my kids lives. I pray a lot! It has finally given the me the peace to chill out! It gives me joy to see my kids make strides and to see them grow in knowledge and abilities. I am finally thankful that I do homeschool. And while every day is far from perfect, everyday is at least given to God and that is enough for me.

I pray that by making these changes with your kids, you will have a new and refreshed schooling experience.

[Gwenny]

I just wanted to clarify something. . My3sons was saying that it sounds like RtR was a good fit. But Stahlmom4 says RevtoRev. Those are 2 different guides.