When you just know....and a question?

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PoppyD
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:37 pm

When you just know....and a question?

Post by PoppyD » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:50 pm

Hi ladies,
I have used sonlight for 3 years with my kiddos. This year I took a break to reevaluate and figure out what is next. One month in, I already know we won't go back to sonlight. It simply wore us out. It just wasn't a great fit. Not to mention that I have discovered that my oldest daughter is a visual and hands on learner so doing virtually all reading wasn't good for her. So I had my heart set on biblioplan. Then looked at veritas for awhile. But it just didn't seem "right." Last week I got out my HOD catalog and have been poring over it. I think I have found what we need!!!!!! I just hate that I have to wait until next year :)
Here are my questions - help me have confidence that HOD is a good choice over BP or VP!
Also - it will be time to study ancients. So CTC is an easy decision for my then 5th grade girl. But what about my 2nd grade girl? We have done 2 years of world history with SL and will have covered 2 years of American. The 2nd grader is a great reader. Does fine reading above level. Can she sit in on CTC??
Thanks!!!
2016/2017 Preparing - 3rd grade daughter

LynnH
Posts: 1846
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:41 pm
Location: OH
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Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by LynnH » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:53 pm

It sounds like HOD is exactly what you are looking for. The rich literature that you like, but balanced with hands on activities that are very easy to do. I would not have your 2nd grader sit in on CTC. First of all the content was chosen specifically for the age range specified by the guide. Also she wouldn't be able to do all the writing and hands on activities that make it a balanced program so you would loose much of what you are looking for. I would forget looking at the history cycle and would look at the placement chart and see where she fits according to that. Pay close attention to the area of writing because there is a big difference between say Beyond, Bigger and Preparing in the amount of writing required.
Mom to:
dd 22 college graduate and employed as an Intervention Specialist
ds 18 US2, Loved Preparing, CTC , RTR , Rev to Rev, MTMM ,WG, WH and US1
http://www.graceandfur.blogspot.com/

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by MelInKansas » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:15 pm

I love HOD and I think it fits a variety of learning styles. I think their Christ-centered approach and the ease of use (because you as the teacher have to do so little planning) are great bonuses. It does sound like your oldest will love the activities and things she is doing. You will want to place both of your children in programs based on the placement chart (it is in the catalog and here on the website: http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php). Don't worry about what part of history you want to study next. All of it is repeated, and the fun approach and different books will make it fresh and exciting for them. There may be some repeat on books for your 2nd grader (specifically in Preparing we use Child's History of the World by Hillyer which I know is also a Sonlight spine), but I would not worry about that. Once you use HOD you will see, how different it is and how differently resources are used. Bible is interwoven with the history to give a much more Biblical viewpoint on the history (and Bible passages are read with history readings to show where Bible history intersects with other histories that are written). The hands on activities and narration activities help your child retain what they have learned and make it more real for them. This past week in Preparing we had a Medieval Feast. It was planned out over 3 days and we did it on the 3rd day, she created her menu, we laid the table, we dressed up, we performed songs and poetry, it was a blast! That is one of the more involved of the activities but again, think of how well she will remember that for years to come! It brought in the whole family.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

PoppyD
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by PoppyD » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:33 am

Thanks for the thoughts ladies!
So with placement, clearly we have awhile and will be able to better determine as we get closer to time, but right now, my first grader is doing copywork that is decent length. 4-5 sentences per day. She is also rotating doing WWE level one and EIW level one. And CLE language arts and reading. Although that probably sounds like a lot, she actually wants more. She says it's all too easy. We are keeping level one of The CLE stuff because even though she is an excellent reader, I feel like she needs the phonics so she will really know all the sounds and rules. Her handwriting is still pretty sloppy but it's getting better. Based on all of that, and assuming she will continue to progress over 1st grade, which program would you choose for her for 2nd grade? She will be 7 3/4 when we start.
Thanks!! I'm so excited!!
2016/2017 Preparing - 3rd grade daughter

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by MelInKansas » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:26 am

Based on what you described it sounds like Bigger Hearts might be a good place to start. Reading and math are always done at the child's level no matter which guide you use. Grammar is adaptable as well. The amount of writing/copywork, the endurance the child has to get through a longer school day, and narration skills are probably the things you should look at closely to see where she fits the best. And as you said, if you are not planning to start for another year things will change by then. You can try to have it in mind for right now and then see where you are at next summer. Also keep in mind since it is a very different style of learning, it may be better to start at a lower level, especially if she seems to place in between. It will be a more fun introduction. And at 7 3/4 she's still on the younger end of the age range and having Bigger Hearts be 2nd grade gives you the flex year (if you did one guide per year starting with Bigger in 2nd grade you would finish the Middle School guides in 7th grade, however most people find a need to slow down or other life lessons or co ops or things slow them down so they are finishing in 8th grade).
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by Nealewill » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:01 pm

From what you shared, I also think that Bigger would be a great fit for her.

HOD is a little bit different in the sense that kids can be together but kids can also thrive very much apart. When I originally came to HOD, I did so because I loved the look of the books. I used Abeka when I first started homeschooling and then I became more eclectic for a couple of years. By my 4th year homeschooling, I had friends who used MFW and I decided to give it a try. It was a great year! But then, the following year homeschooling, I started the 5 year cycle with them and that was not a good fit at all! I found that I loved the thought of learning together but for me, I just didn't workout. My kids are all way to different and they really thrive when better when they have most of their subjects separated. With HOD, I was able to do that. Last year I did Preparing for my oldest and Beyond for my younger 2. This year separated them all and am doing CTC for my oldest, Bigger for my middle, and Little Hearts for the youngest.

We love it! I love how as the kids get older, the guides get so much more independent. My kids absolutely LOVE the books! We love the hands on projects - they don't tucker my kids out either because they are spread out and not overwhelming. The guides are SO balanced and that is wonderful too - there is a very nice blend and volume of workload. And I do think we have now found our perfect fit. Before finding HOD, I used to research different things as well. I have looked at Veritas Press and Biblioplan. I ended up deciding against VP because I felt like the material didn't have enough about God in it. HOD definitely has this and that is one thing I love about HOD. I also decided against Bibloplan because I didn't like the thought of how much workload it would be on me to organize their days and material. I am a box checker and HOD is wonderful in that sense for me. I find that with HOD, my kids have a large volume of material they get through but it also isn't overwhelming. It seems to be just right and always age appropriate :-) I really hope you find you love it and that it is a wonderful fit for you too :-)
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

PoppyD
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by PoppyD » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:09 pm

Thanks so much for all of the responses. They have been super helpful.
Can someone explain to me if it would work to keep my daughters together for the history and science? So do complete CTC for the 5th grader and let the 2nd grader listen in for history and science. But have her do her own grammar, writing, math, reading, etc......
I have had them doing the same for 4 years now, so maybe it's time for a change, but it just sounds so much simpler to do those subjects together. Honestly I have no idea how I would get all of it done. We struggle now getting read alouds done with one history and science going.
I'm open. But want to keep things as simple as possible.
Thanks!
2016/2017 Preparing - 3rd grade daughter

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by MelInKansas » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:35 pm

Heart of Dakota isn't really designed to be used this way. If you wanted to combine two children in HOD you would combine them in the guide that the younger one fits into and then add on challenge for the older one. So therefore you would use Bigger Hearts for both for History and Science and have your older one do the extensions and activities there. Then yes, reading, math, and grammar are customized for each child (and will be no matter what). Writing is something your older child should probably be doing and I am not sure whether the extensions add that or not (I have never used extensions). There is copywork and notebooking in Bigger Hearts but no written narrations or original writing. DITHOR might give that to the older one.

First of all, most of the history and science in CTC is read by the child, independently. The parental workload in CTC is much lower for you than in Bigger Hearts. Again, this is because it is designed to be able to do several levels of it at once with children of varying ages and for each of them to have challenge right where they are at. The ease of use, open-and-go aspect of the guides is what you get when you make the trade off of just placing each child in their own level. Really what I generally see is that if your children place two or more guides apart and you can swing it financially, it is easier for you to just use the guides for the ages/levels they are written for rather than trying to adapt the levels to a child who doesn't fit in that guide.

Because of the designed growth in independence, naturally this requires some training for that child before they can take off and really take ownership of what they are doing. If you decided to go with two different levels, then you might start CTC a few weeks earlier and get that child solid and going on what they are doing and then start the next one on Bigger Hearts. It is always more intensive at the beginning of the guide, and then as you get into the rhythm of it it gets much easier and flows very smoothly. The growth built into the year is also wonderful to see.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

PoppyD
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by PoppyD » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:17 pm

Ok thanks. I was just thinking today that my older daughter has got to start gaining more independence with school so perhaps this is the ticket! I didn't realize there was a lot of independent work for CTC.
Thanks!
2016/2017 Preparing - 3rd grade daughter

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by MelInKansas » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:30 pm

I hear tell also that Bigger Hearts and Preparing Hearts are the most teacher-intensive guides. I guess this makes sense because the child is ready for higher-level learning and more indepth study, but perhaps not ready to read all of the material on their own. A lot of the time I spend with my DD in Preparing Hearts is reading the History and Storytime boxes to her (and then the following discussion, narrations, or assignments). I love that she is starting to do the History projects more on her own (which is labelled as independent in CTC also). I believe each level adds more independence to it. That's when your job as teacher becomes more the checking and grading of the work rather than doing all of the reading and study with the child. It's still some work, but perhaps less time intensive? CTC is the highest guide I have actually seen.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by Nealewill » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:00 am

I completely agree with Mel on several of things she posted in the previous comments. And CTC is very independent. In this guide, all of the history and all of the science are read by the student independently. The only books and boxes that I still help my dd with are the Genesis Bible Study book, Geography book, Story Time, Grammar, Writing, Spelling, DITHOR, and Math. It sounds like a lot when I type up LOL. But the Genesis Book and Geography book are read every other day opposite each other. Grammar and Writing are also completed every other day and offset each other. And then Spelling and DITHOR are completed only three times a week. With CTC, I do also complete the watercolor paintings with my dd. I think they are meant to be completed independently but we soon realized that my dd needed help and was frustrated. So we do them together and it goes much faster and better (plus I love art - thanks Carrie for including these in this level!). But everything else - the history projects, science projects, research, you name it, she is doing it alone. It is so much less work running multiple guides where each child place correctly versus running 1 guide and modifying it constantly (for me at least).

In addition, the message forum shows estimated times for the different boxes for each level when you go into the various forums for the different levels. Here is a link for the length of time each box takes for CTC: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=14365. And here is a link for the length of time each box takes viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14220. I would say these times hold very true. For me, I spend about 1.5 hours max with my oldest on her teaching times and that is only if the story time box takes me a lot of extra time because it is a longer story. I would say a better estimate for my time is closer to 1 hour or so a day. For my child in Bigger, he still lacks the confidence the write things out independently - although he is gaining more confidence - so I have to write out his answers and he copies them. I would say I am probably helping him closer to 2 hours per day. My little hearts child - I spend about 1.5 hours max per day. I also will say that using all of the recommended products for HOD for each subject does help your day line up better with their time estimates. When I came to HOD, I had not found any Language Arts curriculum that I loved - I had a few vendors picked out that I knew I liked - but ultimately, I love how balance the LA box is and I love the variety of resources they picked out and use. So I am using the recommendation for literature study, grammar and writing. I do love the spelling in HOD but my oldest is dyslexic. She can read and she read fairly well but that is because early on we figured out that whole language approach was a terrible fit for her and we switched over to dyslexic products. We found that with spelling, she couldn't spell ANY of the words on the word lists when she started 3rd grade. So we switched over to a spelling program that appeals to this type of learning. She now spells great. I actually tried to switch to dictation but it actually took longer LOL. She was all panicked and making tons of mistakes just because she was off her game. It would take her 10 minutes alone to study the passage before she was ready to write it LOL. So with her spelling, there are no "tests" and she only spends 10 minutes a day three days per week on it. I feel good about that because the time frame still lines up well enough with the time frame for that box (HOD says 5 min for dictation but my dd was taking way longer for several months). So we switched back and our day is still balanced. I also use a different math program than what HOD recommends. I love Singapore and I do actually use an Asian math program that is similar. This program is definitely a little bit more teacher intensive in the beginning but by the end, it is very student driven. Again, I wanted to make sure that the amount of time we spent on math was similar to their recommendation on time for that box. I am happy to report, we do match up fairly well. HOD recommends approximately 20-30 minutes spent on math. My oldest does spend a little bit more time on her math box each day though but she only does math 3 days a week because of the way her math is set up. Some days take her 25 minutes and some 45 minutes. But our math program teaches things in a very different order. So within 2 years, my oldest dd will be ready for pre-algebra. At that point, I will be switching over to one of the HOD recommended resources and then that box will line up too. I only mentioned all of this because with running multiple guides, if any resources you choose to use instead of their recommendations don't line up with respect to time, then your day is gong to be majorly out of whack! HOD chose great products for kids to leant with but they are also products that are less teacher intensive. They did this to help parents teach multiple children at various levels with different products that geared well toward the child's level.

And finally I find that HOD is SO nicely balanced that if you wanted to add in something else that you felt like you or your children were passionate about learning, you could easily do so. I wouldn't say add a lot, but something small would easily be accommodated. I know several families teach their children another language at earlier ages. For me, I love language. I had always planned on teaching my kids Latin and Spanish but I couldn't find anything I liked for their age that they could do well with. So I ended up finding a roots program that we use - my kids spend about 10 minutes a day max 4 days per week. For me, it meets that foreign language expectation I wanted for them. In addition, we are learning all about chess this year. So I was easily able to add that in too. And finally - my kids take piano lessons. I definitely don't think you ever need to "add" anything. One thing I love about HOD is the variety that the kids learn about. I loved the books on the scientists, composers and artists in Preparing. I love the water color in CTC. I love the Shakespeare study in R2R. I love the science in general for every level (those Tiner books are fascinating!). I pretty much just love it all! It is so diverse and so interesting. But we as parents sometimes want to add in something that we also love. So I guess I just wanted to say that HOD isn't overwhelming at all and you can easily could add something extra if you want too.
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

PoppyD
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by PoppyD » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:44 am

Wow! You ladies are so helpful!
So a few more questions. Do any of you ever read ahead of your child? For instance, besides the book of genesis, I know virtually nothing about the ancients. Egypt, Rome, Greece, etc..... So I would love to actually know what we are studying and since I wouldn't be reading much aloud to her, I was wondering if anyone reads it first.
As far as other subjects, I used rod and staff in the past and was thinking of doing it again anyway. I really like CLE math though. And we do Latin. Writing is what I think I would need to figure out. We are using Writing and Rhetoric by Classical Academic Press and I love it!!! Is what is suggested in CTC super different from that?
2016/2017 Preparing - 3rd grade daughter

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by Nealewill » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:06 am

Several moms do read ahead but only because they want to. You don't have to though. I normally read as much as I can once box day comes but that is only because I just love reading the books myself. However, once school starts, then no, I don't read ahead anymore. I just don't have the time to read ahead.

As for writing, if you switch back to R&S, then I would just do the writing recommendations listed by HOD. The books are great because they teach writing several different ways and from several different stand points. That was my one complaint with staying with one vendor for all writing (which is what I had originally planned to do). If you only learn to write from one person or one program, then you may not be maximizing your full potential for writing. Learning from several vendors offers more tips than just learning from one. And with writing, you would be completing the writing assignments in both the R&S book and the creative writing book. Since R&S is technically a complete English program, it does include writing. But it is more fact based writing and not creative writing. In addition, you are doing weekly written narrations and those are more fact based as well. Other things the kids are writing out are weekly questions for science, they write down their weekly science experiments, some form of copywork is done most days, and then journaling from the geography book. So HOD adds in the creative writing portion from different vendors to give kids the opportunity to learn how improve their writing. I love it! I think the volume of writing at each level is also very balanced as well :-) I never feel like my kids are overwhelmed with the amount of work scheduled and they have enjoyed the assignments. Plus, at the end of the year, they have a wonderful and beautiful keepsake.
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by MelInKansas » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:41 pm

I am either pre-reading or reading alongside my DD in Preparing and I am starting to pre-read our books for CTC as well (as when the baby comes I imagine my time to read will be a little bit less). Generally when my DD gets out a new book for her independent reading or DITHOR I will pull the book out in non-school hours, i.e. evening or afternoon, and read it myself. It doesn't take me long. Then when she is narrating to me from the reading, or writing a narration, I can help her better and I can judge better whether she got the main point(s). Also, as you said, I am not myself as familiar with these time periods, and the way HOD teaches history is not how I learned it in school anyway. It definitely has a different focus. It is probably not necessary but I find it very helpful in my own ability to effectively teach or help my child learn.

So now you're back up to two total History spines right? The difference is, since the books in CTC are at a reading level for the child, they are shorter and have easier vocabulary. So they are very quick reads if you are reading them to yourself. And as Nealewill said, they are so interesting I really enjoy reading them and feel it enriches my time with my DD. Of course, I do also read for myself books she is reading for fun, because she is a bookworm (as am I) and it is a good way to connect with her. So this is not like the "work" of doing school where I have to sit with her every day and read it aloud while my 2 year old is interrupting us.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

PoppyD
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: When you just know....and a question?

Post by PoppyD » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:17 pm

Thanks everyone. Can someone tell me what I can be doing now to prepare for doing HOD next year? We do some oral narration so I'm guessing I should increase that. What about written ones? What about independent work? They are both still pretty dependent on me for most everything. The 4th grader does math mostly alone after I teach new concepts. She typically has lots of questions throughout also. She can typically get her grammar done alone but I sometimes help with that too. Virtually all of history and science is read aloud by me. To be honest, I wish we had done HOD or something similar all along because I feel like my kids aren't very independent and it is creating so much stress this year. The lessons are also really long. I also have a 4 year old that needs attention so it's just incredibly hard to juggle it all. And everything takes forever I feel like. Lastly - just a background - we did sonlight for 3 years and started progressing towards classical. This year we do lots of different things but a lot is classical and lots and lots of reading aloud.
Anyway - sorry for the whining. But I would love advice on prep for HOD.
Thanks!!
Poppy
2016/2017 Preparing - 3rd grade daughter

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