*World History Geometry question--Carrie/Julie/anyone?

[Mamochka5]

Hi ladies,

My son will be moving into the WH guide this year, after finishing the WG guide. He did Foerster's Algebra 1. We both like David Chandler's videos. I will state up front that I am not a math girl, and remember next to nothing from Geometry. So, I am trying to decide (um, agonizing over) whether to put him in a local homeschool class that uses Jacobs 2nd edition (good book), or use the Geometry:A Guided Inquiry (Chakerian) package that HOD is selling. Both have great reviews online.

If he does the class, she teaches it, corrects tests, and has free tutoring help as needed, for no extra charge. I have to correct homework, but I don't think the answer key shows step by step.

With the Chakerian package, I know Carrie said it shows step by step answers. Is that for ALL problems? I seem to remember that proofs often have more than one answer. How is that handled in the answers?? Meaning, how would I know if it's correct or not? Does David Chandler offer for the student to contact him with questions? The program looks great, I'm just afraid that if my ds gets stuck, I won't be able to help. I can't find specific answers to these online.

Carrie has obviously looked at these (probably also Jacobs when she was evaluating curriculum). Please give me your thoughts. I need help! I need to let the Geometry teacher know whether we will do her class or not. The class costs a little more (not too much) and obviously I would have to drive there. I have no specific feel for the Chakerian package, so I need help. Is that program one that works fine with no geometry background? Does Chandler offer help?

Carrie/Julie??

Thank you!

[Motherjoy]

I don't know anything about either geometry program, so I'm not help there. But if you are not a mathy person, then its okay and even beneficial to outsource for this one class. I wish we had done this before we realized that my oldest was struggling with algebra. I'm usually not a fan of classroom set ups, but I would give anything for a great math class to send my son to.

[Motherjoy]

I don't know anything about either geometry program, so I'm not help there. But if you are not a mathy person, then its okay and even beneficial to outsource for this one class. I wish we had done this before we realized that my oldest was struggling with algebra. I'm usually not a fan of classroom set ups, but I would give anything for a great math class to send my son to.

[Carrie]

Liz,

David Chandler is updating the Math Without Borders Geometry to work with Geogebra, a free program. His updated description can be found below:
The new Geogebra-based version of the geometry course is distributed on reusable 8GB thumb drives. The same version works for Windows, Mac, and Linux computers.

The Home Study Companion: Geometry course supplements the textbook in several important ways:
It has a video introduction to each chapter which gives a chapter overview.

It provides complete, worked out solutions (not just answers) to all problems in the Central and Project sections of the text.

The pdf solution manual also contains additional commentary to supplement the presentation of the text. Be sure to read through the solution guide after working through the chapter to get this additional commentary.

It provides a collection of hundreds of demonstrations using Geogebra, covering most of the main concepts, and many additional explorations, in the Central and Projects sections of each chapter. Accompanying each demonstration, or cluster of demonstrations, is an activity guide that will help you get the most out of the Geogebra explorations and teach you how to use Geogebra as a tool on your own as well.

Geometry: A Guided Inquiry was written long before the current obsession with standardized testing, and it marches to a different drummer. It covers many fascinating topics you will see in no other high school Geometry textbook. The selection of topics in the text is excellent, but the authors’ choice of topics (in 1970) did not anticipate every choice of the various state standards committees at the end of the century. Therefore the Home Study Companion adds Extensions to the chapters, as needed, to cover these additional topics. (Students not affected by mandatory statewide testing can treat the extensions as optional topics, but they are actually good topics, so it is recommended that they be covered.)

Teaching Tips: (From David Chandler):

Each chapter of Geometry: A Guided Inquiry is divided into a Central section, a Review section, and a Project section, plus Algebra Review in the first few chapters. For each chapter, the Home Study Companion: Geometry has:
*A video introduction with chapter overview
*Pdf files with complete, worked-out solutions to every problem in the Central and Project sections of the text.
(The pdf files contain additional commentary besides just the problem solutions.)
*A large collection of demonstrations using Geogebra.
*A video solution guide covering the Review section.
*Extension sections covering extra topics included in many state standards.

Suggested Teaching Plan: (by David Chandler)
1. Start by watching the short video introducing the chapter. This video gives an overview of the content and suggestions on how to proceed.

2. Set a goal for how long to spend on each chapter. A standard-length school year is about 185 school days, and there are 12 chapters. That divides out to approximately 15 school days (three weeks) per chapter. However, there are extension sections that have been added to Chapters 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 11. Allowing an average of 5 days for each extension section takes up 30 school days, leaving 155 school days to divide by 12. That comes out to about 2.5 weeks per normal chapter and 3.5 weeks for the chapters with extensions. This is just a rough guideline. Some chapters will undoubtedly take longer than others. Homeschooling does not have to conform to the traditional school year, so you may want to take a little more time. Adjust the pace according to your own time constraints and the quantity and perceived difficulty of the material. Work at a comfortable but persistent pace.

3. The Geogebra demonstrations can be viewed at any time. Some of them can be understood on their own and can help motivate the material in the chapter. Others will make more sense after a certain point in the chapter. Each demonstration, or cluster of demonstrations, is accompanied by a pdf activity sheet. So preview them at the beginning and view them again as you progress through the chapter.

4. Print out the pdf solution guide for the current chapter. This turns out to be an important point. If they are printed out, they will be more immediately accessible and you are more likely to refer to them regularly. (However, some of the pdf files contain Internet hyperlinks that you may want to visit, so you may sometimes want to access them directly on your computer.)

5. Work through the Central section of the text as quickly as you are able, referring to the solution guide as necessary if you get stuck.
When you finish the Central section, go back and read through the entire pdf solution guide, both to check your work, and to digest the additional commentary that is included. This will serve as a good review before going further.

6. Do the Review section, then view the video solution guide. Rework any problems that were missed.

7. Do the other review, self test, and algebra review items. (Answers in the text.)

8. Take the remainder of the allotted time working through selected problems from the Project section. (The Project section contains the most interesting material in the book, so don’t short-change it!) The method here is the same as for the Central section: view the demonstrations at any time, print out the pdf solution guide, work through as many problems as you can, and at the end, read through the entire pdf solution guide. It is best to try each project problem on your own first, but reading through the solutions of all the project problems at the end will still be of some benefit.

Note: Many of the Geogebra activity sheets include tutorials showing how the demonstrations were implemented in Geogebra. These will help you become more familiar with the program and make it a useful tool to use with this and later mathematics courses.


Hopefully, this answers some of the questions you have about the Math Without Borders portion. Honestly, I think you could go either way. If you were able to get through Foerster's Algebra I, then I believe you could get through Geometry: A Guided Inquiry. However, if you prefer to have the class take that load from you, then you could do that instead. A couple of things to weigh with the class is how much it will dictate the rest of your daily schedule, whether you might waste much precious teaching time driving to and from the class, and whether you may be less able to help your child at home with any homework or areas of struggle if you outsource the teaching part. All of these things can make a seemingly wonderful class a nightmare in implementation. On the other hand, a good class can be a burden reliever (as long as the hurdles I mentioned don't begin to weigh you down in the day-to-day) so that is something to ponder. I know with my oldest son, I felt that I lost track of what he was doing in math, and I felt unable to help him. With my second son in line, I have committed to staying with him for math and helping him along the way (even though it is time-consuming for me). This has been a good fit for me, and I feel more prepared to help my other kids coming up!

I know that David Chandler loves the projects at the end of the chapters in Geometry: A Guided Inquiry, but I do think that is one area where you could pull back and do just a couple in order to stay on track with the text and to compensate for a less than strong Geometry background. His DVD solutions are all there step-by-step to guide and help, which gives me courage to proceed.

It is so hard to know what is best, especially in the area of math! I can appreciate your struggle in the decision and pray for the Lord's peace. I can assure you that the Chakerian text combined with Math Without Borders is an excellent, academically strong combination for Geometry. We did spend time with the Jacob's text as we reviewed texts and did not find the solid step-by-step teaching within it like we did in the Math Without Borders/Chakerian combination. The Jacob's text is quite different from the Chakerian text. Also, the different editions of Jacobs vary quite a bit as to their rigor and their teaching presentation.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Mamochka5]

Hi Carrie,

Thank you for responding to me. I am feeling overwhelmed and panicky about this! The class would use Jacobs 2nd ed., which I have read is better with concrete steps for proofs than 3rd ed. My ds was reading the Jacobs book yesterday for fun bc of the comics. How did 2nd edition overall compare with the Chakerian/Chandler program, in your opinion?

My concern is with correcting the homework with Jacobs, since the answer key only has answers, no steps, except for proofs. But, it has a teacher to answer questions. The 2-hour class is 30 minutes away, once a week. I would likely alternate driving with other moms. But, it's obviously a big chunk of time. I own the book already, but obviously would have to pay for the class. My ds is also doing an outside honors Chemistry class twice a week because he really enjoys the teacher (he had him this year), and I personally like him to be able to do labs with kids his age. So, the math class would add another afternoon of driving, but is one thing I wouldn't have to teach. Hmm...

I reread all that you posted from David Chandler and wonder how long math would take each day. Looking at the write up, it seems like it would take a long time. Maybe an hour and a half? How long would you suggest scheduling daily for it? Will the WH guide list problems to do, or just list the book, as in WG?

If you are not super math-y, does it seem easy for mom to correct and help with? Also, how hands on would I need to be? I have the five younger children, too. My ds did Foerster's Algebra 1 on his own for the most part. I corrected his work and helped him with mistakes, but I actually remember Algebra, unlike Geometry. And he's always been a strong student.

On another note, should he finish the entire Algebra 1 book before beginning a Geometry? I know schools often don't finish the whole book and we are not finished yet. I don't know how to address that.

I so appreciate all comments, suggestions, and help! I look forward to your response.

Thanks,
Liz

[Mamochka5]

I know it's a holiday weekend, but bumping for Carrie to see it, as I need to make a final decision this week. Please see my previous post.

Thanks for your help!

Liz

[Carrie]

Liz,

I would plan to allot an hour to an hour a day for math, knowing it may be an hour and 15 min. on some days. I agree when reading David Chandler's recommendations that it can feel a bit overwhelming at first, but honestly, I think we will plan to set our timer each day and work until the timer rings.

The central problem at the beginning of the chapter in the Chakerian text is actually more like Foerster's story problems at the end of the chapter. So, the Chakerian text will give you the tough problem up front (which makes you scratch your head) and then, in showing you how to solve it, do the teaching for the steps to the solution all along the way. Chandler's DVDs support the chapter as you go, but you could go through the chapter with as little or as much reference to the DVDs as you desire. The real gem of Chandler's DVDs seems to the be full-text answer key (which is not available anywhere else, and in my opinion is a necessity).

So, in looking at Chandler's recommendations, thinking about taking 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 weeks to complete a chapter, you can work through the central problem first and see how much time ends up being taken up just working through the central problem. After that you will see how much time you actually have left to do the reviews, self test, and algebra reviews. Then, after that any remaining time is devoted to the project section at the end of the chapter.

In my way of thinking, if the child struggles in geometry then he/she would do very few of the projects at the end of the chapter and focus mainly on the central problem and the reviews/self tests. The child who is excels at geometry will get to more of the projects at the end of the chapter. I share this to let you know that this is a pretty forgiving text as far as how much you do with the projects. While ideally, all students would complete many projects, in reality this will vary quite a bit as to the students aptitude for geometry.

With Chandler's pdf of answers in hand and his step-by-step video solutions though, it makes correcting much easier! I truly dislike any upper level math program that only gives me the answer, with no step-by-step guide of how to get there. It makes the whole program derail at that level for me! This is where my concern in using Jacob's comes from, as it sounds like you as the parent will still be responsible for correcting and helping with the daily work (without a step-by-step answer key) Jacob's also makes some leaps in understanding that can leave you scratching your head with no help available right there except for the text.

So, in essence you are choosing between having David Chandler paired with the Chakerian text and a full-text answer key to help your child daily, or a math teacher help your child once a week for a couple of hours while you struggle through Jacob's on the other days with only the answer key. If the math class were daily, I would probably feel a bit differently about it; but in the end you are the parent and will have a fuller understanding of the help and support that is offered. I would definitely find out about what the answer key offers and about what help is available when you get stuck.

I hope this helps a bit as you are pondering.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Mamochka5]

Thank you, Carrie. That does help. You have understood my concerns very well.

I think I will go ahead with the Chakerian/Chandler package. I really like the idea of the laid out solutions, and my ds really likes the Chandler video for Algebra 1.

We are still working in the Algebra 1 text and are continuing through summer. We had a few bumps in our year, causing us to fall a little behind. I know ideally, we should finish every textbook, every year. We were told in a seminar about hs through high school that to be worth a credit, we should plan to finish at least 3/4 of the textbook. I know Foerster's covers some more advanced topics, not covered in other programs.

So, how much of the Foerster's Algebra 1 do we "need" to finish to be ready for a Geometry and, later, Algebra 2? I don't want to start Geometry late and be behind every year. (?!)

Thank you!!!

[my3sons]

Thank you, Carrie. That does help. You have understood my concerns very well.

I think I will go ahead with the Chakerian/Chandler package. I really like the idea of the laid out solutions, and my ds really likes the Chandler video for Algebra 1.

We are still working in the Algebra 1 text and are continuing through summer. We had a few bumps in our year, causing us to fall a little behind. I know ideally, we should finish every textbook, every year. We were told in a seminar about hs through high school that to be worth a credit, we should plan to finish at least 3/4 of the textbook. I know Foerster's covers some more advanced topics, not covered in other programs.

So, how much of the Foerster's Algebra 1 do we "need" to finish to be ready for a Geometry and, later, Algebra 2? I don't want to start Geometry late and be behind every year. (?!)

Thank you!!!

Mamochka5 - I think you've made a solid decision to go with the Chakerian/Chandler package! We'll be doing it at the same time as you with our ds Wyatt. Would you mind sharing where you are in Foerster's and about how much time you have prior to wanting to start your next school year? Also, a quick question - when we did Foerster's, we followed HOD's suggestions for pacing. This kept our lessons to around 45-60 minutes on average, 4 days a week, and helped us clip along. Rather than me trying to explain them all over again here, I'm going to just paste that portion from the Introduction...

General pacing suggestions for Foerster’s Algebra I include doing a section each day (odd numbered problems only) and spending 2-3 days completing all of the problems in the story problem style exercises at the end of each chapter. If you spend 2 days on the story problem style exercises at the end of the chapter, then you can take one day to complete the “Chapter Review and Test.” However, if you spend 3 days on the story problem exercises at the end of the chapter, then you will instead need to do the “Chapter Review and Test” on your free 5th day in order to complete the text by the end of the school year.

Are you - in general - following these pacing suggestions? I'm just asking because if not, it may help you finish out the year more quickly if you did. Also, if you get the chance to just let me know where you are in Foerster's and your hopeful timeframe for beginning Geometry, I would love to help you more with some suggestions specific to your goals. Thanks!!!!

In Christ,
Julie

[Mamochka5]

Hi Julie,

Thank you for responding! My son is taking his Algebra 1 Chapter 9 test today, and will start Chapter 10 tomorrow. We have been following the pacing suggestions, in general, but there were days when my ds took so long doing his other subjects that he didn't do his math. (Not great, I know.

So, how much does he need to finish and how? I obviously want him to start Geometry on time so we aren't behind again next year. The other issue is that we are not year round schoolers, so I do want him to have at least a couple of weeks "off" this summer so he is not burned out. I want him to feel fresh for the new year.

He is finishing Unit 31 in his WG guide this week. We are a little behind in that, too. We had some unexpected outside situations this year that took our attention. I'm trying to find ways for him to double up a bit on that so there aren't as many days left to do that. His science and Russian classes have both ended, so that's two less boxes. I've also decided to let him out of drawing the maps because he doesn't like doing that part at all. He does everything else, though.

I would definitely appreciate your thoughts and advice!

Thanks!
Liz.

[Carrie]

Liz,

Life's circumstances can get in the way a bit of our best laid plans, can't it! Take heart that Unit 32 is a pretty good place to be in the World Geography guide. I would go to schooling 5 days a week right now (rather than 4 days) to gain time, instead of doubling up. Next, in knowing that a summer break is essential to my boys' mental and emotional health, I would make the tough decision to forego the final couple weeks of the guide. So, I would set a goal that you feel you can live with (like perhaps finishing Unit 33), and then stopping. I would have your son read all of the material scheduled in the final two weeks of the guide in his free time to give him closure. While none of this is ideal, it is important to look at the overall picture. Going into the next school year exhausted and burned out will not help anyone! As I'm sharing this advice, I do want to mention that for kiddos' in the younger guides, I don't advocate not finishing a guide completely. This is because one guide is needed to prepare the child for the next guide in line. However, at the high school level (and after your son has completed most of the high school guide), things look somewhat different as the skills don't ramp up quite as much from guide to guide.

Next, as far as math goes, I would make the hard choice to begin skipping the end of chapter story problems. Doing so, will save you 2-3 days per chapter. The reason I suggest this is that it will be important for your son to have the teaching in each chapter in order to be able to understand Foerster's Algebra II later. Before you feel absolutely terrible about this, be encouraged that Foerster himself says that the second part of the book "allows more flexibility in the selection of sequence and topics to fit the students' needs and available time." Since there are 14 chapters, you will also have to make some other choices to save time and get on track to begin Geometry this coming year. While I don't typically advocate skipping things, in this situation you are going to need to in order to get done. So, I would also look at skipping the chapter review and tests and just doing the daily lessons. That would still leave you with approximately 35 lessons to complete (taking into consideration that you are skipping the story problem days).

If that seems like too much, you could forego the final chapter (which contains more work with functions and advanced topics that will be covered in Algebra II). This would bring your lesson number down to about 28 lessons. Typically, the first lesson in each chapter is quite short, so if you combined it with the second lesson in each chapter and did them together on one day that would save you another 5 days, bringing the day count down to 23. Make sure to only do the odds, as Foerster recommends. Next, you could look at omitting certain less important lessons in each chapter, gaining you more time there if needed. I would steer away from skipping entire chapters as much as possible, with the exception of the final chapter. Work to complete a lesson a day (even if you have to downsize the problem sets to do so). Try not to have your math time exceed 1 hour up to 1 hour and 15 minutes or so a day. This would have your son working 5 days a week and finishing in a little more than 4 weeks (or less depending on what you decide to omit within the chapters).

This plan I've shared above would allow your son to have the weekends off, and with the exception of math, have time off from the rest of his subjects before beginning school again. You can certainly do an entirely different plan than the one I've shared above, as you will know your situation much better and have ultimate authority over your school days. Hopefully, this will get you thinking of possibilities and of ways you can gain some needed summer!

Blessings,
Carrie

[Mamochka5]

Wow, Carrie. A lot of detailed, wonderful advice. Thank you!! I will look through his math book today and see how best to apply all you've suggested.

With the WG guide, I think I will likely stop short, but I really would like him to finish his entries in the Student notebook and the world Religions notebook. I'd hate those to be blank! . Hmm....

Regarding the research paper, he has done all of research for the paper. Should I still have him write the paper, or will this also be covered in the writing portion of the WH guide?

Thank you!
Liz

[Carrie]

I would have him completely finish the research paper. It is such a needed skill.

Blessings,
Carrie