To teach summaries, should I go back some guides?

[Gods servant]

My 14 yo has been doing the HS Geography this year. She has no problem with the readings. She comprehends everything and retains the information well. Her oral narrations are amazing! She has a huge vocabulary from all the reading she's done over her years. Her storytelling abilities are incredible. She is gifted with linguistics, Music and Art. Her problem is that many times when she goes to do a box, she says it's like her brain is foggy and she can't focus. It's very frustrating for her and me. She gets overwhelmed easily and then will sit and tell herself stories, draw, or even read the Thesaurus instead of doing her assignments. Her biggest difficulty at this point is doing the summaries. She can't figure out how to take all the "prettiness" out of her narration to get it down to the barebones.

Do you recommend that I just start sitting with her more one-on-one and trying to work through this? If so, how? Or would it be better for her to go back a few guides to gain this skill and to learn the art of completing a day's work in a 24 hour period?

I'll tell you what I did finally try this week. I sat down with her one day and asked her to narrate to me. She got nervous when she knew I was writing it as her paragraph. So then I gave her the scenario that I was someone walking down the street who needed to know that God had a plan for my life (because this was what the paragraph was about). She started, but then I was pulled away to help with youngers. When I was able to check back in after lunch and a few more hours, she had finally gotten some thoughts down on paper, but not in sentences yet. However, she had the biggest smile on her face as she talked about this picture she felt that God gave her about sanctification. It was amazing! Truly a parable/picture that would be a blessing to many Christians!! But then she said, "but I don't know how to write that down on paper?".

Is there a specific Writing program you would recommend for her from one of the guides to use instead of the Essentials in Writing that help teach this, or does it make more sense to simply go back? I keep reading over and over how the guides build upon one another.

If I did go back a few guides (RTR, or RevtoRev), my thoughts were to put her into it right now and work on it for the rest of this school year, through the summer and complete it by October. That way I can give her her 9th Grade grades on that guide. (She's been doing Latin online and various Music classes at co-op, so she would have grades for these already). We might just continue using the Lit. from Geography and she would continue working through R&S 6, and then do RevtoRev Creative Writing, or RTR Medieval Writing (depending which guide we chose) for her full English credit. She could do MTM's Bible - is that a full H.S. Credit? If it's not a full credit, she could also read How Should We Then Live?. She would continue doing Exploration Education (which she started prior to this year). Is that a full credit w/ Lab? If not, she could also read Apologia Astronomy, or Apologia Anatomy (which we own both of). Reading is easy for her and she could definitely get through them, the output of writing is her weakness, but I could have her orally narrate it all to me if that is sufficient. She would also continue with Videotext Algebra I (that we bought before starting w/ HOD).

If she did RevtoRev, I was thinking about substituting in the President study from MTM (3 days/weeks) and then have her memorize the States' Capitols (1 day/week), instead of the full states' study. She did go through all the states in 3rd grade in MFW Adv. in U.S. Hist. We wouldn't do the Basic Read-Alouds from RevtoRev because it sounded like from other posts, that she would need the Extension pack for H.S. credit instead, but we could use some of those books in DITHR instead of the Geography Lit. course if DITHR made more sense in helping her gain the skill of summary. With the Composer study we could add Spiritual Lives of Great Composers for her full credit plus a bunch of recordings we have from MFW. I was also thinking about adding Great American Speeches for Young People and doing MTM's Worthy Words section (to get some Economics) and MTM Ind. Hist. Study, because she wouldn't be doing RevtoRev Inventors box (she has already read several Biographies on Inventors, so not as important for her) for her History credit. She could also take a one semester class online at FPE studying the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers and the Constitutional Convention Debates. She has already read the U.S. Constitution, but that was a few years back, so she could re-read it. What of that would I need to put in to complete our History credit?

That all seems a bit complicated, so another thought was to do RTR, but with the Science, Bible and Math mentioned above. She did a Shakespeare class at co-op this year, which would fall nicely into this theme. We would probably do both the Basic and Extension to get enough history (I think that's what we'd need). Carrie mentioned in another post that she would need even a bit more History to count it for a full credit, so perhaps I'd have her listen in on some of the History books I have from MFW Rome to Reformation, or she could do the "Pilgrim's Progress" study with Answers in Genesis (but then if we do the H.S. WH guide, I don't know what she would substitute for that then). For English, we'd do the RTR Medieval Writing, R&S 6, and DITHR, or BJU 9th Lit. plus some of the books Carrie listed in another post on beefing up RTR.

If we did the RTR until Oct., then perhaps for her 10th grade year (starting a month late), we'd have her do a combo. of the RevtoRev and MTM that I mentioned above. 11th grade she could go back to Geography and then 12th grade end with World Hist., or Govt./Economics, or one last year of U.S. Hist. - something like that.

Could you please let me know your thoughts on this? We really need to get past this hump as quickly as possible. Thanks.

[The2youngs]

Unfortunately, I can't help at all with suggesting writing programs, as my children are still quite young. However, one thing that you mentioned really stuck out to me - you said your daughter says her brain gets foggy and she can't focus. I may sound like one of "those" moms (you know, the granola kind, which we totally are now! ) but my first thought is to consider her diet. We discovered not long ago that when my son eats food with artificial flavors or colors that he said the same thing. He could do math, tell stories, behaved fine, etc. but when it came time to read, he'd start flipping letters around, read words backwards, mispronounce words he already knew, etc. He described it exactly the same way - his brain felt foggy.

This could be totally unhelpful to you, but I just thought I'd mention it in the off chance that it might help.

I do hope you get some good advice from other, more experienced moms regarding the writing questions you have!

[Nealewill]

I don't know that I think I would go back. It sounds to me like she already can do most of the stuff in the guide. I am not sure where the block is for her in writing but I think you will probably still have that same block no matter what. Do you happen to have the HOD Preparing Guide? That is the one guide I think that really teaches the written narration well. Basically it has the kids listen to the history, next read it alone if they can, then it gives them questions to answers verbally and finally has them do the narration after that. I think if you can help her in that way - by asking questions and then helping her to step by step write her narration, that would be the best thing. Also - what writing programs have you done in the past? I am not sure of all of the ones out there but I think having her form an informal outline of what she plans to say would be very helpful (but it sounds like she is already doing this). If it were me, I would probably work with her over the summer on this skill on a small scale and then once the year starts back up again, I would slow the speed down of World History to help her master this. There is going to be a lot of journaling with Literature it sounds like and then there will be more written narrations. For me - this is how I would tackle it. But as the previous poster mentioned - I also have young kids. So you can take my advice or leave it. I hope something helps that I wrote.

[LynnH]

Just want to clarify before I answer. Is it the written narrations she is struggling with or the summary activities that are part of I believe the story time box? These are very different skills.

[Carrie]

Along with the questions that Lynn asked, I am also wanting a bit more clarification on how your daughter works through her whole day in the World Geography guide. It sounds like from what you've shared thus far that she is struggling to finish a day within a day. How long hour-wise would you say she taking to do a full day's plans? is she having to spread it out over two days?

I'd also like to clarify a bit in these areas too: Would you say that all of the writing she is asked to do in the guide is a challenge? Does she require you to be with her in order for her to complete any work that is not based on reading books? For example, is she able to read and follow the written directions in the boxes in the guide on her own and do what the directions say without help from you? Or, is she missing things in the directions, or needing you to come and redirect her often?

I ask these questions because they will make a big difference in our advice to you as far as targeting where the problems are. We can advise you even better with a bigger glimpse into her overall day. If you get a chance to pop back and share a bit more that would be great.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Gods servant]

Here are some answers:

To answer Nealewill's question, for writing in the past she did the simple writing assignments they do once a week w/ BJUP 1 and answering the questions they ask in the TG for their Readers. She started w/ BJUP 2, when she was in 2nd grade. From the beginning she struggled w/ getting something on paper, so I'd have her orally tell me what she wanted to say for each of her papers. I'd write it for her, revise it w/ her and proof it, then I'd have her write out the Final Copy. The following year, I started trying to teach my next child to read, who really struggled and needed lots of my time, plus I had a newborn, so I just had her do whatever writing was w/ MFW Am. History. In 4th grade, her younger brother was still taking much time to learn to read and I had two other littles, so I just had her do the writing assignments that came with Beautiful Feet's CA History program. In 5th grade she did Sonlight Core 4 (now called Core E) for all of her Lang. Arts. They have writing assignments throughout. She took so very long to do each of those, that we skipped some and then had her finish it in 6th grade. In 6th grade we also started MFW Greeks, so whatever notebooking assignments they gave her, she did. In 7th grade we started her in Writing Strands 4, but a month or two into it, I decided to combine her with her brother (not very successfully), so we went back to the beginning of the book and did it again. Her writing took a while, but it was so amazingly creative in comparison w/ her brothers short, simple sentences. He'd finish his work quickly, but not well. She'd take a few days for each 1 day, but it would be great once it was on paper. Because of the time it took me to work w/ her brother on his writing and then her lack of ability to do hers independently and having another baby in the middle of the year, we didn't get much of the book done. I also tried to have her do Total Language Plus, but she would read the book and then take forever to do any of the workbook pages, so we skipped it. She totally understood everything the guide discussed, so I let it go. In 8th grade all the writing she did was associated to her High School Level Am. Lit. class that she was taking at Co-op. We had two Foster kids last school year too, in addition to my own 5, so we were just glad she had Am. Lit. outside of me. The teacher for that class asked her to give a summary of every single chapter in every single book that she read. Each of her chapter summaries always had a rather good sized paragraph to explain it and the teacher loved her wordiness and the elements of the book that she was able to draw out from it, which most of the other kids missed. She would dictate to me and I would type them all out for her late, late at night before co-op day. I purchased First Language Lessons and Writing with Skill by Susan Wise Bauer, but with all that was going on that year, I couldn't spend the time w/ her to do that. I was hoping to use those to work on outlining and doing a Research Paper. So that leads us to this school year. We don't have a new baby and no foster kids, but I have been spending most of my time with number 3 & 4 children to get them up to speed on their Reading and Math. Thus, we haven't been too successful in completing much of any of our HOD guides. My son is in Preparing and still needing MUCH help with following instructions and understanding, however, he is efficient, so he can do things VERY quickly. They may just not be complete, so we have to go back again, sometimes several times to get it all done. However, he is improving. I posted about him last week in the thread entitled "Does Resurrection to Reformation go along w/ MFW RtR?". My frustration w/ my oldest is that she is very smart and capable (NOT a struggling learner like her brother), just unable to write and do things in a timely fashion (and that goes for every area of her life).

It sounds like from what you've shared thus far that she is struggling to finish a day within a day.

This is absolutely true and I cannot honestly tell you how much time it takes her hour-wise to complete a full day's plan because she will pick one thing, like say "But Don't All Religions Lead to God?" and read more than she is assigned w/o doing the writing element, and that will be all she'll do in that day. When she started the guide at the beginning of the year, I tried to encourage her to not read past what she was supposed to. She slowed down some, but read the whole first book from the Living Library section in a few days. She loved the book, so told several of us the story of it. Thus, I never had her do the summaries on it, because she'd already orally narrated to us so completely. She waited to read the following book however. So, she is on several different days for different subjects and it gets a bit confusing. I sat down with her before and wrote it all out on paper, which days for which subjects she needed to do and which order to try to help her get going again. But she gets overwhelmed and then doesn't do much of it. This is one of the reasons I was wondering that if she had less to do in a day (with an easier guide), perhaps it might help, but then maybe it wouldn't. I don't know.

Would you say that all of the writing she is asked to do in the guide is a challenge? Does she require you to be with her in order for her to complete any work that is not based on reading books? For example, is she able to read and follow the written directions in the boxes in the guide on her own and do what the directions say without help from you? Or, is she missing things in the directions, or needing you to come and redirect her often?

It is very interesting that you asked these questions in this way. I shared them with my dd and asked her how she would answer them. She said that the Copywork parts, like writing down a quote or something, is easy. It is when she has to gather her thoughts together to put words on paper in an orderly fashion, that she struggles. These are her words, "When I start writing, I can write a lot, but it will often go off into a different direction than I was planning and before I can bring it back around to the main point, I'm done because I've been writing for such a long time. So then I don't want to write again for a very long time. I like Creative Writing, but I like letting my mind create different ways the story could go, but then when I rewind to try to write it down, I've forgotten the beginning and have to start all over again, or I'll just give up because it's taken so much time already and there is nothing on paper. And then I don't want to write again or attempt it because it seems such a fruitless task and I get discouraged."

And yes, except for her online Latin (which I can't help her w/ anyway), Piano, Violin, Guitar and Dance and occasional exceptions, she needs me w/ her to complete anything that is not reading a book. And with so many other youngers I can't do that, so the work doesn't get done. And to answer the second part of that question she said that she knows exactly what she needs to do, knows it is easy, but her mind doesn't want to do it, so she'll go do something else - anything else. In my son's case, however, who is doing Preparing, he truly is not able to read and follow all the directions in the box and do what it says, so I have to have him re-do a lot, or go back and complete something. This gets him frustrated, so the next time he is asked to do his independent boxes, he wants me to do it w/ him so he doesn't have to do it twice.

Hope this helps some. I really appreciate any and all advice. We need help here. I'm a very discouraged homeschool mom right now and really need some sort of a breakthrough for both of my older two.

[Gods servant]

... you said your daughter says her brain gets foggy and she can't focus. ... my first thought is to consider her diet. We discovered not long ago that when my son eats food with artificial flavors or colors that he said the same thing. He could do math, tell stories, behaved fine, etc. but when it came time to read, he'd start flipping letters around, read words backwards, mispronounce words he already knew, etc. He described it exactly the same way - his brain felt foggy.

I have often thought about this. When she can't focus, I try to get her to go over what she has recently eaten, but I can't see any connections. Do you know how soon after the food it might affect them? I've wondered if it was something she ate the day before because it even happens early in the day sometimes. I can't figure this one out.

[8arrows]

You are a busy mom. Things fall through the cracks sometimes (They do here!). I think this is what I would do. I would slow everything down for a bit. Do what you can with the kids--what you are able to keep them accountable to and grade. Make sure all of that is well done. Then slowly amp up. If after you slow down, if it is still not working, then I would back up a guide or 2 as needed. It is OK to focus on a couple of your children and minimize what you are doing for a season with the youngers until you have the olders more independent. I have had to step back and do this. I have also had to have my olders sit in the same room with me so that I was monitoring them constantly until they gained the privilege to go somewhere else for one subject, two, etc. (as they proved themselves). I would keep in the back of my mind that while there could be a processing problem with your daughter and her writing, it sounds as if at times she has completed good writing pieces in the past. I would first assume that she just needs to know that it is expected and that you will be checking it. My children will take advantage is something has fallen through the cracks. Babies and foster children are important. There are seasons that God gives us for all He wants us to accomplish. This may be the season He is giving you to work on certain skills, diligence, and follow-through. What if she gave you one or two sentences at a time and then typed or wrote out those two with you present? You could remind her if she forgot something you told her. Then move on to the next two. Ask her leading questions if need be. She make take off sooner than you think. It will be time-consuming, but only for a little while (unless there is a processing issue). Success breeds success--and quickly! I would be a stickler about not letting her read ahead. My daughter would always choose the reading and none of the responding. I will be anxious to see Carrie's response of continuing or going back a guide or 2 (since obviously she know the guides through and through). Meanwhile, don't be discouraged. I see a lot of great things you are getting done! There is only so much time in a day. Smile about what is getting done well, and make a few steps to conquer those things that do need to be addressed. Can you tell that I am in the midst of addressing a few situations at my house as well? As a mother of many, I am speaking from my heart to you. There is only so much time in a day. When we seek God first, use our time wisely, and seek Godly counsel, we are SURE to get exactly where God wants us to be.

[Carrie]

I've been typing this response awhile, pondering as I go. Thank you so much for taking time to share about your daughter! What a help it is to get a fuller picture of her academic path, her strengths, and her struggles. It sounds like she is a very creative child who has tendencies like all of us do when we come up against something that it hard or time-consuming in our less than favorite areas. It also sounds like she is missing the skill-base that we are wanting students who are coming into the World Geography guide to have. This is going to make the World Geography guide a really tough fit for her, until she gains the skills needed to complete the guide well.

With what you've shared in mind, I think we definitely need to rethink placement based on the factors of overall writing, following written directions, independence, work habits, and a barrage of skills she is missing from earlier guides. While your daughter is a very good reader and has strengths in outside areas, we still need to look at the skills she is missing so that she can work on those. This is true for all kiddos, not just your daughter! We also need to make sure she is well-placed skill-wise in a guide that she truly can complete, because this will allow her to form habits that will help her lifelong in task completion.

As we rethink placement, I would advise placing her in Resurrection to Reformation. Before you think that this means your daughter is behind, I want to reiterate that we are working as much on training her in independence as we are in training her in needed skills. This means that we need to go back to a guide that she can truly complete the plans as intended. This is going to be crucial in your busy household (as I know it is mine too)! As you make this move to the new guide, I would share with your daughter that the very first change you expect is for her to only read the assigned pages that are noted in each box for the day. With my own two high school sons, I have discussed with them that reading however far they feel like in a book each day actually is showing disobedience to me, because it does not follow the guidelines I have set forth as their teacher in the plan for them for the day. Often reading ahead also means that they get behind in their other work for the day which results in unfinished or late work and affects the whole family. I told my boys that that just doing whatever they want each day means that they are putting their needs and whims above the rest of the family (and above my instructions as the teacher), and we all end up suffering for it as it keeps us doing school longer in the day or later at night. Once my boys realized how it was affecting me and the rest of our family, the tried much harder to follow the plans as written. They actually felt good about it over time too, as they were getting done with their schoolwork in a more timely fashion!

The second change I would share with your daughter is the expectation that she must finish a day within a day of plans every day 4 days a week. I would set up consequences of things that she enjoys that she cannot do until she has finished all of her schoolwork for the day. We do this with our own boys, who have many interests and hobbies that they love to pursue. They know they are not to do their hobbies, until I have first checked their school work for the day, and it is completed to my satisfaction. Think of this as life training. If you think about it, are you able to pursue your interests and passions whenever you desire, or is there work that you need to complete each day first?

Next, I would spend the first two weeks of the new guide RTR training your daughter how to do each box in the guide. This means that you will need to spend quite a bit of time with her for two weeks. Have her read the directions in each box aloud to you, and then sit by her while she completes the task guiding and redirecting her as she goes. She will never gain any independence from you if you are not sure if she really can do what the guide is asking of her. Once you have spent two weeks training her, you will know that she has had the training to do what the guide is asking of her. This means that completing things in the guide can be expected and that the assignments are not negotiable. She must complete them by day's end. Honestly, you are not currently reaping the benefits of having an older student, because she needs you as much as the youngers. HOD is designed for the older students to have skills and habits in place that allow them to need you less, giving you needed time to work with your youngers. This is what you need to see happen at your house, and it will happen over time. This doesn't happen naturally in any home, so you are not alone in this pursuit. Take heart that we are all there in the training trenches with you!

In RTR, I would shift to doing the grammar as often as it is scheduled in the guide. If English 6 is too hard or challenging, then I would shift your daughter to English 5. English 5 is a strong key year of Rod and Staff, so do not feel badly if you need to back up to it. If English 6 is working well, then keep it but shift to doing it only twice weekly as that is how often English is scheduled in RTR. For English, be sure that you do much of it orally or on a whiteboard, assigning only one part to do on paper in writing. The written work should take 15-20 min at the most. I would use the Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons from RTR as scheduled in RTR too. This will be one area along with English that you will need to commit to sit by your daughter and teach whenever it comes up. So, set up a daily 30 min. time period to work on English and Medieval Writing.

Due to her age and reading level, I would have her do the Extension Pack books instead of the Storytime books with RTR. This means that she would forego the Basic Package and order the Deluxe Package. The schedule for the Extension Pack is in the Appendix. Have her stay on the correct day for those books as well, only doing a day within a day. She should follow the Extension reading with an oral narration one day and a written narration the next (alternating by day to give her practice in these skills). So, she would omit the Storytime box of plans each day and do the Extension schedule instead (with alternating oral and written narrations).

I would stick with Exploration Education Advanced Physical Science doing a lesson a day for her science in place of the science in RTR. So, she would omit the Science box and do EE instead. She should finish EE Physical Science by the end of her freshman year.

How is the literature study portion of the World Geography Guide going for her? If it is going well, and she is completing the assignments as written in the guide, I would continue with that for literature. If she is not completing all of the assignments including the written portions and the BJU questions, I would switch to having her do DITHR level 6/7/8 Students Book as scheduled three times weekly in RTR. I would take the books you're already using (and what you have left from the World Geography's guide's literature and plug them into DITHR). For example, from the girl set Papa's Wife could go in humor along with the Importance of Being Earnest, A Lantern in Her Hand could go in historical fiction or biography, Pride and Prejudice could go into Realistic Fiction, Little Women could go in historical or realistic fiction. If she's done with those you could add in some of the boy titles from the World Geography guide to add to DITHR instead. There are many adventures in the boy titles from the World Geography guide that you could use for the Adventure genre of DITHR and Treasure Island (from the boy's pack in World Geography) could go into the mystery genre, if you need one for mystery. A Christmas Carol and Screwtape Letters (from the boy's pack in World Geography) work well for fantasy. I would probably lean toward doing DITHR to keep your daughter working from RTR as written as much as possible. This combined with the Rod and Staff English and Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons would work for her English credit.

Keep going with your math as usual. It sounds like she will also earn credit in Latin. Was she doing the Spanish that was in the World Geography guide? If so, she could continue with that daily to earn 1/2 credit in Spanish. Was she earning credit in Fine Arts with her creative pursuits this year? If so, she could continue with that. For Bible, she could either do the Bible in the RTR guide (targeted for a younger audience but does include Bible reading, prayer, Scripture memory, and music) and add some additional Bible reading to it daily to make it credit worthy for 1/2 credit in Bible, or she could forego it and continue with Rooted and Grounded doing a lesson a day earning a full credit upon its completion.

For this year, I would add as little as possible to RTR to make it very clear and manageable as to what is to be completed each day. Do just what it says in each box. Don't add or subtract from it. So, even if she doesn't feel like doing the project, don't make it an option. We are training her in the skill of reading and following written directions and completing a task. Likewise, make it a goal not to stretch one day out over two, and make sure that your daughter is staying on the same day for every subject so that she just has one two-page spread to look at each day. This may make for some very long days in the beginning, until she realizes you mean what you say. But remember, we are placing her in a guide that is more manageable, so we know she can do what is asked.

To help with not getting behind, have a mid-morning 30-35 min. meeting with her around 10:30 to teach English and Writing, hear any oral narrations, and to check her progress in other areas for that day. Have her bring her guide and anything she thinks she has done to the meeting including the books for completed subjects. Go over each box of the completed work and check it off when it is truly completed. We do this now with our own sons, and it works well. After lunch, have a second checkpoint, where she turns in her work on the counter and you look it over either during or after lunch. Call her over for any problems you see that need correcting. In the mid-afternoon have a final checkpoint to make sure her work is completed before she heads to any free time tasks. She may or may not need to be present at that checkpoint. These checkpoints will help keep her on track and accountable. Eventually you can go to two checkpoints instead.

For her long-term plan, I would have her finish RTR and then proceed into Revival to Revolution. I would not rush the guides in any way, but take time to steadily do a day within a day. Cramming it in will leave her wondering how much to do each day. Steady progress forward with clear daily expectations will serve her better. I would still give her at least a month to six weeks of summer break from school, or she will burn out and so will you! At this point, I would work from the high school plan that she will do RTR as a freshman and finish mid-way through as a sophomore. Rev2Rev will be the rest of her sophomore year and finish mid-way through as a junior. MTMM will be the rest of her junior year year and finish mid-way through her senior year. The remaining part of the World Geography Guide will be the remaining part of her senior year (picking it up mid-year and finishing what is left from where she left off now).

This will give her credit in World History (for RTR), American History (2 credits - one for Rev2Rev and one for MTMM), and World Geography (for the WG guide). We'll work out her sciences as we go to match her future plans. We'll do the same for her literature. We'll add government to Rev2Rev and Economics to MTMM. This plan will work well for her without rushing to help her get the skills she needs and hone her work habits too.

In closing, I'll share that to train your daughter as needed for two weeks, you'll need to down shift your next three a bit. So, downsize your next 3 in line to gain you this time, having your 11 year old join the youngers in Beyond for just two weeks and continuing the 3R's with him. Since you're working so much with your second little guy in Preparing Hearts and he is struggling mightily with the Independent assignments, I would consider shifting him to Bigger Hearts with Extensions after you get your oldest daughter a bit more settled. Before doing this though, we should weigh whether just slowing Preparing down to half-speed for awhile would help instead, as this may be a better option overall.

I'd love to hear your thoughts as we ponder your options.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Gods servant]

Thank you so very much for your response Carrie! I read it and have printed it out and am pondering and studying it. I'll try to touch back when I have some questions or thoughts to share. It looks really good from what I've been able to digest thus far. Again, I can't thank you enough for taking your precious time to put something together for me and my daughter. She also read it and my husband is reading it too, so we will definitely touch base later.

Also, thank you 8arrows for sharing from your heart. Your words of encouragement mean a lot!

[Gods servant]

Sorry for the delayed response. We have a crises in our family right now with my father.

Again, I greatly appreciate your input. These are my thoughts right now. I think we should go back to RTR like you said, as soon as possible. We will do the left side of the guide as is. For the right side, we will continue Videotext for Math and Exploration Education for Science.

For Lang. Arts, my daughter is excited about doing DITHR with all the books you mentioned, substituting just a few for the ones she's already read. I'll look more carefully at those choices when I have some time and perhaps have a question on a choice to make sure it is High School level. She said that R&S 6 is going along just fine. She doesn't struggle with the writing on this one so much because it is kind of like copywork where you don't have to take all of your thoughts on something, consolidate them, and then write a sequential summary or paper. For the writing part of LA though, she is very reticent to do the IEW because they've done that at our co-op for years and I have always told her how it really wasn't a good fit for her because her immense vocabulary naturally enters her work already, as well as -ly words and descriptions etc. Her weakness isn't in using banned words, or creating complex sentences, but rather in consolidating and summarizing things. Would it be too hard for her if we chose to do the MTM Write with the Best Vol.2, or should we consider Vol.1? She was wanting to do the Creative Writing program from RevtoRev, but I think we should save that one to do when we are actually in that guide 1/2 way through the next school year.

For the Art Appreciation box, she's done soooo much art over the years, I don't think she needs that one, plus most of the devos are too young for her now. Should we just skip that box? Is the poetry study just once a week for this box? And if so, what book is it from? She has enjoyed Logic, so I am wondering if we ought to continue to do that 3 days/week instead? She could also use Stepping Heavenward once/week. She has enjoyed that devo book. I was thinking about buying the WH Guide's Fine Arts for her to do as a reward at the end of the day if she completes her other work first. This way she could get a credit for Art - which is one of her passions and gifts. We could do this instead of Logic and Stepping Heavenward?

For the Bible box, we do Lamp & Quill together as a family (about 15-20 mins./day), so that could be part of her credit, but then for the other part, she got excited about the MTM Explorer's Bible Study: Faith at Work book because she's been wanting to study Romans. Should she also read something like The Evidence for Jesus, or Mere Christianity to complete that credit, or would the other two parts mentioned above be enough for a credit? The Bible for WG was amazing and she loved it, but the summary questions at the end of each week took her hours to complete, so I think we should come back to this one later.

For Foreign Lang. this year, she is all set with a full credit in Latin online, and a 1/2 credit in German from co-op.

I had a question about the Shakespeare part of RTR. She has been taking Shakespeare at co-op and will have about 50 hours when she completes it in 3 weeks. How much time does the Shakespeare element take and how often is it? Would it make sense for her to try to do this for her last 10 hours to give her 1/2 credit, or should I just pick one of Shakespeare's plays that she hasn't read yet to go through?

I also wanted to ask you about Spring of next year. If we are doing RevtoRev, would the Music Appreciation box count as 1/2 credit or a full credit for the year? We could add Spiritual Lives of Great Composers, which I already own and have been wanting her to read, as well as many CD's of great works.

Lastly, she has been wanting to read Mere Christianity. What credit might you see this going towards either now or in the near future?

Thank you again for your help. My husband was amazed at your insight and we feel very blessed.

[Gods servant]

I had a bit more time tonight to look at things. I think perhaps we ought to purchase the R&S 5 book. It looks like it covers things like summaries, taking notes and outlines that might be very helpful to her. If we do that, would you suggest that we complete that whole book in 1 year since we are going down a level, or stick with the twice weekly schedule?

For DITHR, I was wondering if Twelfth Night might work for Humor along with Papa's Wife, instead of The Importance of Being Earnest because she already read that one in her Shakespeare Class this year? That way, perhaps she can finish her 1/2 credit for Shakespeare too? Would you say Jane Eyre could go in Realistic Fiction? If so, she could do that with Pride and Prejudice for that genre (she's already read Little Women). She doesn't want to do Treasure Island (she read an abridged version some years ago and didn't care so much for the Pirate scary theme). What else might you recommend for Mystery? Would Mystery of the Silver Coins from RTR be advanced enough for High School, or The Invisible Friend (I think it's from the same series)? I also spotted Sparrows in the Scullery in the DITHR list for 7/8 Boys that she hasn't read yet. Could that count for High School? Do you have any HS suggestions for Non-fiction, or could that be most anything? For Folk Tale, would Knights, Maidens and Dragons in the DITHR 7/8 Girls list count for High School credit? Also, I was wondering what genre you might put The Story of King Arthur and His Knights in? Are there any others from the New WH list that you might recommend for her in DITHR?

Hopefully this list might be helpful to others too. Thank you for your time.

[Nealewill]

I have no advice for you but am encourage by your zeal to create a fantastic year for your dd!

[Gods servant]

I had one more question about DITHR. I know that in Preparing it is scheduled to do only 3 days/week. I've been struggling with that because at the beginning of the year, you plan out all the books you want them to read and it is supposed to be 15 days per genre. I thought of that as 3 weeks (5 days/week), but if you do it as scheduled, it takes 5 weeks to get through one genre, so you will never finish all the books. Can you tell me what I am misunderstanding? I want to try to do this right with my dd when she starts it, as well as fix it for my ds to accomplish what he is supposed to.

Lastly Carrie, if I am trying to do too much again, or somehow off-track in my earlier post, please be honest with me. I really respect your input here and as much as I want my daughter to learn everything and have all these thoughts and ideas of how to accomplish this, I know that teaching her these life skills is more important. My husband is already on board for me to start the first two weeks of the new guide with my dd as you suggested. Thank you so much for your honesty and advice.

[Carrie]

God's servant,

I'm so glad you are getting a chance to ponder through how to find the very best fit for your daughter! It is such a worthwhile pursuit!

As to your excellent questions, first of all I would table the Logic and the Bible (Rooted & Grounded) from the World Geography to pick back up your daughter's senior year when she returns to the World Geography guide. This will enable her to simply pick up the guide as close to "as is" right where she left off and complete the rest. It will eliminate much confusion and allow her to finish earning the 1/2 credit for Logic as a senior and the full credit for Bible as a senior upon completing those course she has begun now. You would list them on her senior year transcript as that is when the coursework will be completed.

Next, since Stepping Heavenward is a continuous story, I would keep having her go through that book in her own free time annotating as she goes. Upon completion, she can list it as part of her Bible credit. The reason I would have her do it in her free time is because the Beautiful Girlhood Study in RTR should not be missed. She will need to do that as scheduled in RTR twice weekly and that will be part of her Bible credit as well. In pondering whether to borrow the Bible study from MTMM, I would advise on leaving that study until she actually gets to MTMM. Instead, I would choose a different Explorer's Bible Study to do with her for RTR. Not all of the Explorer's Bible Study guides are as well-done as the one we chose for MTMM. They are written by different authors with different writing styles. So, choose with care. I would also add Mere Christianity for her to do on one day each week for Bible on her free 5th day, since she has an interest in it, taking all year to complete it. It is a book to be read slowly and pondered. If it gets too heavy, I would table it for a later reading. Together Beautiful Girlhood, Stepping Heavenward, her Explorer study, possibly Mere Christianity (if she does it), and her Bible study she does with you daily should earn her a full credit in Bible.

As far as writing goes, I would strongly encourage you to do Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons. I am not a huge IEW fan, but this particular IEW course is truly excellent. It goes very well with the content the kiddos are reading for the history portion of RTR (which provides much creative fodder for writing). It teaches the skill of summarizing in an outstanding way and is likely the factual piece of writing that your creative-brained daughter is missing. While she may not love it as much as a creative writing program, it will stretch her as a writer in a different way. My oldest son is a very creative writer, with a huge vocabulary. Yet, he learned some very important summary and key word skills from his year in Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons. Encourage your daughter that the following year she will get to do the creative writing course in Rev2Rev. Then, the year after that in MTMM she will be well-prepared to tackled Write with the Best II (which is not an easy writing course and will require a strong background in writing to complete).

I agree that doing Rod and Staff English 5 is a good idea. You can do it daily, four days a week, as long as it doesn't make your daughter's day too long. Remember that we want a manageable day that she is expected to complete every day. So, if this is a time stealer, then downshift to doing it twice weekly instead. There are many foundational skills there that will great for her to have both in writing and in grammar. English 5 is quicker than English 6, so the lessons should go more quickly. As part of your teaching with her, I would do both grammar and IEW with her.

I do think that doing the Shakespeare in RTR in a good idea, as it is a low-key way to get the overview in story form of Shakespeare's plays. Plus the notebook is a stress free assignment that is just for the joy of it. It takes about 25 min. weekly to do the Shakespeare study and could round out the remaining part of your 1/2 credit for Shakespeare. Doing Twelfth Night for humor in DITHR would work too if desired.

For realistic fiction in DITHR, I would do Pride and Prejudice alone (and wait on Jane Eyre) so as not to rush Pride and Prejudice. Jane Eyre is darker and better for an older reader. DITHR includes 15 days of reading for each genre, so you'd want her to read and savor Pride and Prejudice in Charlotte Mason style over all 15 days. The Story of Arthur and His Knights is legend, so it would fit in the Folk Tale category (again spread over 15 days to savor the reading). For mystery, while both the books you mentioned are wonderful and definitely should be read, we need a more classic book for high school level literature. I'd lean toward possibly the Scarlet Pimpernel as a mystery (even though it is historical fiction, it could fit in mystery too).

For the art appreciation part of RTR, I can see you substituting the Fine Arts from the World History guide (which your daughter will not get to) in place of the Art Appreciation in the RTR guide twice weekly. To get in the remaining 2 days of fine arts each week needed for the World History guide's fine art's plans, she could do an additional day of Fine Arts on her free 5th day each week and do the art projects DVD part on her weekends, in the evening, or during her free-time as time allows. Upon completion (whenever that happens) this would earn her one-full credit in fine arts (if she does the art projects too). If she didn't finish by year-end, she could do it in the summer to finish. For continuity's sake though, she would for sure do it twice weekly in place of the Art Appreciation box in the RTR guide.

For Rev2Rev, she could earn 1/2 credit in music appreciation by adding to the composer study with just the things you mentioned (adding those on her free 5th day). That will work well.

I think you have a great plan coming together. The goal needs to be to leave Rev2Rev, MTMM, and the World Geography guide as close to the way they are written as possible so you have less tweaking and a more incremental skill progression each year. This will help your daughter clearly know what is expected each day and incrementally build a wide variety of skills (as one guide's skills build well upon the foundation laid in the guide before). I don't want you to lose this flow of skills, as it is important. You can borrow things as desired from the World History guide on up, as your daughter won't hit those guides by graduation. Yet, as we borrow things we must take away others to balance her day. Less tweaking is better.

Blessings,
Carrie