Level 4 Dictation typo?

[SouthernMrs]

Just a quick question here. We are working on Dictation Level 4 #83 and I'm wondering if there should be a comma before the word tyrant in William Tell's quote. Can someone help me with this? I'm thinking he's directing his statement directly to the man, so wouldn't there be commas before and after?
thanks for the help!
Charlene

[Carrie]

Charlene,

Great question! In reprinting the original 1900's version of the dictation book from which these passages come, we have chosen not to go through and edit for additonal punctuation in each passage. This is due to the fact that many of the passages are direct quotes from famous individuals, or excerpts from poetry, or parts taken from classic books which don't always follow traditional grammar and punctuation rules. We pondered going through the passages and adding punctuation in some cases, but it didn't make sense to only do it sporadically, while leaving the classic poems, quotes, and excerpts untouched. So, we have left the passages as they were originally knowing that the main focus of dictation is to capture the passage in the mind "as it is written" and then reproduce it in exactly that form. Rod and Staff English is our chosen method for strictly following the rules in grammar, capitalization, punctuation, and usage. The dictation passages are often written more in a form more like classic literature, which doesn't always follow the rules.

Hope that helps!

Blessings,
Carrie

[SouthernMrs]

Hi Carrie,
Thanks for taking time to answer. I appreciate that you want to keep the passages as written. My dd did this passage today and we both questioned it, so I just thought I'd ask on here to clarify. Now I understand that the dictation passages may not follow all of the current grammar rules. Thanks again for your help!
Charlene

[pjdobro]

I appreciate reading your response too Carrie. We had one dictation passage in level 2 that we felt could have used a comma between two adjectives. I told my dc that we needed to remember the passage as it was written in the book. It was actually a good discussion among us as to why we felt that grammatically it needed a comma. It probably taught them more through the discussion than if it had the comma written. I'm glad to know we did it right by just doing the dictation as written.

[Mom2Monkeys]

I don't want to sound negative...I'm just confused.

I thought dictation was a method by which children learned not only to study and reproduce exactly what they studied, but also to imprint proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, ect. in their minds. In my understanding, it was to teach them to apply these things dictation is teaching and their proper use would flow out into other subject areas. I know this is the case for spelling, but I assumed that applied to other areas as well. So, am I mistaken? Should I add in the corrected punctuation, etc as needed so my dc are imprinting a correct image? I know that dictation really works for spelling, and what my dd learns in dictation is what she tends to remember since it's used in context. So, if this is the case, I'm concerned that she may be picking up on the incorrect things as well. I do appreciate leaving quotes and poetry and such in it's original context, but wonder if modern day dictation, due to the purpose it's intended to serve, is the proper place to do so?

I'm not being critical, Carrie! I'm truly confused and want to understand it. I love all your choices and trust and value your methods and opinions.

[jg_puppy]

I don't want to sound negative...I'm just confused.

I thought dictation was a method by which children learned not only to study and reproduce exactly what they studied, but also to imprint proper grammar, punctuation, spelling, ect. in their minds. In my understanding, it was to teach them to apply these things dictation is teaching and their proper use would flow out into other subject areas. I know this is the case for spelling, but I assumed that applied to other areas as well. So, am I mistaken? Should I add in the corrected punctuation, etc as needed so my dc are imprinting a correct image? I know that dictation really works for spelling, and what my dd learns in dictation is what she tends to remember since it's used in context. So, if this is the case, I'm concerned that she may be picking up on the incorrect things as well. I do appreciate leaving quotes and poetry and such in it's original context, but wonder if modern day dictation, due to the purpose it's intended to serve, is the proper place to do so?

I'm not being critical, Carrie! I'm truly confused and want to understand it. I love all your choices and trust and value your methods and opinions.

I am glad that you asked about this. I am confused about this as well. I think that dictation should be used to learn correct grammar. I thought that was the purpose of dictation. That was one of the things that I liked about dictation. I could cover spelling, writing, and grammar with one activity. My dd has a hard time with grammar. I don't want to confuse her.

Janet

[pjdobro]

Since we are only on level 2 dictation, I can't speak thoroughly to this, but in this level we have only found one such issue and it was a minor one at that. From Carrie's post above I think the exceptions are rare in the dictation passages and typically it is because they are quotes. Personally, I feel like an exception to proper grammar or punctuation here or there is not a big deal and consider it a teaching a moment. It's an opportunity for me to discuss with my dc how language has changed over the years or how an author didn't use the commonly accepted grammar or punctuation rules. Through this discussion, I think they cement the rule that was broken even more in their head. I realize that isn't them visualizing it correctly, but that would be a possibility if one felt it necessary. Overall I think dictation still does a wonderful job of helping dc have a good model for spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

[Carrie]

Good questions! You are right that dictation and copywork work toward helping kiddos be good spellers as well as reinforcing grammar, capitalization, and usage. The passage that we are discussing is an exception rather than the rule within the dictation passages. It falls in a similar vein with the fact that CM had children copy poetry, even though we know poetry doesn't always follow the "correct" rules for punctuation and capitalization all of the time. We don't "edit" the poetry to make sure it follows the punctuation and capitalization rules but rather leave it as the poet wrote it so it is read in the way the poet intended. The same is true for the dictation passages, which usually follow correct rules of grammar, punctuation, and spelling, but once and awhile may have an exception.

Another example of this would be that CM usually had children do dictation from their literature that they were currently reading. Often this was classic literature, which can be noted for not always following the exact rules for punctuation. (i.e. Think of Dickens and the overly long descriptive sentences that could run more than 30-50 words in one sentence at times!) Anyway, you get the idea that dictation is more than just reinforcing rules, as the written word often does have exceptions.

Blessings,
Carrie

[SouthernMrs]

Edited to note: Carrie, your post above must have come in just ahead of my response here.

I can't answer for Carrie in this, but since I did post the question that started this discussion, I wanted to mention that we have used dictation since Level 3 (with my 12yo dd) and this is the first instance that we've come across something obvious. Actually, I was pleased that dd caught the error in the first place (which caused me to pose my original question). My dd is in 7th grade so having her use "classic" poetry and quotes for dictation is fine for me. My younger son is almost finished with the Level 1 dictation and we have not run into any punctuation problems (these are usually only one sentence anyway). There is a grammar supplement on the market that acutally leaves out punctuation and captitals for children to find the errors while editing. If they can spot the errors, then you know they've learned the rules to begin with. Since we do use a grammar text to teach the rule, perhaps we can consider this the "application" part. If you find an error in the younger levels of dictation, then that would be a great opportunity to "teach" the rule in context. But as someone else mentioned, these errors are rare. You'll not find them in every lesson.

Hope that calms the sea a bit. Sorry to cause waves....
Charlene

[Mom2Monkeys]

Thank you for clarifying, Carrie! I get it now