singapore math : 2nd attempt to get suggestions

[MeadowWay]

HI there,
I posted several weeks ago and got 2 PM's .not enough feedback to make a very informed decision.
here is my concern... my son has had some delays, thus age 8.5 just finishing 1st gr. we began HOD in jan. doing fine, did singapore 1 a. THis math is new to me (and I consider myself a veteran hs'er. ) anyway, I am not sure he really got it. some red flags in general about singapore , especially pages 113 ex. 48 where they were given 3 numbers an operation and equal sign and asked to write a number sentence. 115 , ex. 49, page 122. given 3 numbers and the child trying to decide what operation would give you that 3rd number. We got through it, but it was b/c I told the child ok do we add 4 + 3 to get 7 or do we subtract, he would guess and then I would say ok, let's see and have him work it out on whatever manipulative we used that day.. Did he come away with any understanding of this? I highly doubt it... and another concern is how can we say these are short lessons when we have to embelish it in that manner... Are others holding their child's hand each step of the way as I am? and does this all b/c irrelevant as they move along in the program and the child will just have an "aha " moment and it will click... or whatever. Thank goodness we are on summer break, b/c I am hoping to sit back and re-visit this so we can start up in aug. with more hope than I have now... It is very important to me that I don't jump ship if I can be told from other users that it will all come out in the wash. or just as important to jump ship if this isn't going to get better. Time is of the essence. and I have already made this math error with another child who is now 16 and limping along...
for those of you who might have had unsuccess with singapore, what did you see as the weak link in the program?
for those of you who love singapore, please share your love...
thanks so much
KK

[davisfam7]

KK,
While I am not a math expert (barely survived math myself!!), I am seeing the results of sticking with Singapore. My three oldest have all struggled through math. My 16 yo ds does Teaching Textbooks, 13 yo dd does Life of Fred (she did saxon previously), and my 20 yo college age daughter finaly got math in college. My two youngest boys have used Singapore and we are seeing really good results from it. Singapore does NOT expect the child to get mastery the first time a concept is introduced. It will cycle around again and each time the child has exposure to it, they retain a little more understanding. Does that make any sense?? I tried Singapore with my 16 & 14 yo's when they were younger, but by that time they had a different mind set and couldn't wrap their brains around how Singapore works. Anyway, with that being said, you might want to stick it out a little longer before jumping ship. Also, I know there is a thread where Julie or Carrie talk about why they picked Singapore. This might also make some more sense to you. I hope that helps.

[Kathleen]

Hi KK!

I have just a few minutes here, so I'll share my math thoughts with you. We are using Singapore in our house and loving it. I have to say that math is probably my favorite subject. I've always loved solving problems. Here is a thread where Carrie shares why they picked Singapore to reccommend...viewtopic.php?p=431#p431

I am loving the way that Singapore helps my kids learn to THINK mathematically. The problems in the lessons often involve several steps. The child will need to think about what information they know from the problem, figure out how that information can help them answer the question, draw a little bar diagram (introduced in the books along the way as a way to help think through the problem) to help solve the problem, perform the addition, subtraction, multiplication or division necessary, and answer the question. I much prefer this approach to a math program that gives a quick list of steps that the child uses to solve the day's 20 problems that are all identical except for the numbers in them.

In 1A, talking through the problems with your child is absolutely the thing to do! I do that with my kids, and I think it really helps them learn to think as you guide them along. In fact, I still do that occasionally with my oldest who just finished 5B. If he gets stuck on a problem we start talking about it. I'll ask, now, what do you know from the problem? (And often we're drawing a little diagram as we talk...) At this point he sometimes takes off and already doesn't need me, but sometimes we continue. Then we move to, what do you need to find out? How can we find that? And, then I'll have him reread the question in the problem to make sure he answered it. So, the way that you looked at those given numbers and the signs and had your child "try it out" to see what number sentence they could make is exactly what I would do/have done. You're not hurting them to talk through the problem and guide them to the answer. You're modeling the thought process they will learn to use as they move on to solve harder problems on their own as they grow up. And, to me, this process is what prepares them to use math in REAL LIFE! We have a dairy farm, and my husband is always using math to figure feed rations, build barns, fix tractors, & make any number of random things to make something work. He's not finding an answer from the day's given 5-step pattern. He needs to look at what he needs, what he has, and use multiple operations to find his answer. We agree at our house that Singapore's approach seems to be better preparing our kids for this kind of math in real life.

I'd be happy to grab my son's books and give you a peek at a few 5B problems if that would help you see where the program is headed. Let me know.
I also know that with HOD, you are free to use whatever math your comfortable with, too. It's not linked to the rest of the guide, so you are free to use something else or go at whatever pace your child needs.

Kathleen

[mom23]

I was not a big Singapore fan, for similar reasons that you've mentioned and ended up switching to a spiral approach (CLE), but pp brings up a point about them not expecting them to master it right away. Maybe I didn't give it a long enough shot. We did it one year. My dd flew through 3A, and then by 3B she was bogging down and by the end of the book had forgotten how to do basic addition and subtraction because she'd spent too long away from it. I didn't find there to be enough review for her to retain a concept. My ds struggled for an entire year through 1A, and at every review I had to go back and completely re teach him the concept again. Also, in between reviews it progressed so quickly that if he didn't get Monday's lesson by Wednesday he was in tears because he couldn't do any of it. I spent a lot of time re-teaching and having him never really grasp it.

[countrymom]

We are only towards the end of 2B, but I have found that concepts are introduced and then brought back over and over again. The first time a concept is introduced it is usually a short introduction and at that point I would not expect the child to totally have it mastered. When we were in 1A I had thought I might throw in extra at the end, but found by the end ds really did seem to have a better grasp of it. So far my plan is to keep progressing forward unless ds really seems to flounder after doing a concept several times. Then I would stop and do extra activities. Singapore is different from other math programs and it will take longer for some things to stick, but when they get it, they will really have it.

[holdinon]

I started my oldest with Singapore in 1A. For a multitude of reasons (mainly because I was unsure/intimidated because it was so "different"), we ended up switching.

My younger children had the benefit of a more experienced mom , who finally learned that it did not matter what the schools did. I researched (again) Singapore, and became sold on it once again--but this time with the confidence that I was not going to "mess up my kids"

Now that they have progressed through several levels of Singapore, I am sad that I didn't press on with my oldest. Dd has gotten through math, not without struggles, but for the most part a normal student. She will be doing Algebra in 8th grade. She can do math, but only because she was taught all the steps to do the different types of problems. My kiddos that are doing Singapore have SUCH a better understanding of math that my oldest. She can do the steps, but they really, truly, "get" it, and know why they do what they do in order to solve a problem (often just doing it in there head, because "that's so much easier than writing down all those numbers--why not just solve it and move on??")

My Singapore kids are in 5A, 4A, 2B, and 2A (and the youngest in the earlybird book). I would say that only the one in 2A is what I would call a "mathy" kid. The others are just normal-math ability kids. With each of them, I walked through most of the lessons from earlybird all the way through 3B. Once they were in level 4, we still go over the textbook together (talking through all the example problems--me teaching them, and then them "teaching" me), and only when they can walk through it and teach it back to me, do they go off to work their workbook problems--and even then, I am checking in on them every every little bit, making sure they haven't gotten off track.
But up through level 3, I sit with them the entire time watching and/or talking through it every step of the way.

It truly is amazing to me the level of understanding they have been able to achieve through these types of activities/methods. I made straight A's in math, would have been considered a very "mathy" student, and was in a math-related field (not a teacher) prior to coming home, and I'm amazed at how much I have learned!!

All that said, I do understand that not all programs are a good fit for every family, and certainly, any math will work while using HOD as it is a subject all its own. So, certainly pray about it, and if you are led to another math program that works for you, you certainly should not feel bad for changing!

Angie

[holdinon]

Oh, I meant to add this to my first post. It is from the MtM sneak preview thread, so you may not have seen it. It is a post from Carrie about not only her reason behind the choice for singapore, but also her thoughts about how math should be taught. It may be helpful as you ponder.

(I hope I post this correctly ) viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11312#p82074

Angie

[MomtoJGJE]

First of all, I love math, and Singapore is how I think math and would teach it anyway no matter what program we were using...

With that said... My oldest picks things up easily, but doesn't really GET it if that makes sense. I would not spend extra time with her on math, I just did the lesson each day as written. She absolutely TOTALLY gets it now (finishing 3A). My second just gets it. She's in 1B and only rarely will I have to explain instructions more than once, concepts I never have to review. I think my third is going to be the same way.... she's in Earlybird.

I know there were many many times I posted here about my oldest one not getting something. Wondering if she ever would. But since it's the only way I know to teach math anyway, we stuck with it. And now I can explain algebraic concepts to her from her math (at the end of the school day).... Things like "This is how you are doing this problem NOW, but when you are a little older THIS is the way you will work the same problem." and she gets that too It's really fun now.

[my3sons]

You have already received so many gracious, helpful responses here, but I'll add these links as well ...

Singapore Math (why Carrie picked it and my top reasons for using it)
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4271&p=31537#p31537
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112

Wyatt has done Singapore Math all the way through 6A, and Riley has through 3B. They both are doing excellent in math, and one is mathy, one is not. I would say stick with it and remember that new concepts are introduced not mastered, but revisited to master as you keep going. The hands-on activities HOD has written helped so much, as did the tip to use a whiteboard to work through problems modeling Singapore methods. HTH as you consider math for your dc!

In Christ,
Julie

[deltagal]

In our family we began using Singapore when my oldest, who is now 15 1/2 was in 5th grade. It was a big switch and initially everyone did quite well with it. My oldest placement-wise had to drop back quite a few levels, but he did complete all the way through 6B. He is very math-minded and really liked Singapore! My next child did well up until he hit a wall and finally after a year and half of trying to progress we ended up supplementing heavily with another program that is very singaporish. Interestingly enough it was the "other program" that helped me learn the Singapore method and finally inspired me to put everyone back "full throttle" into Singapore. Now, everyone is making great progress, and I'm able to provide better instruction because I understand the method better. What I'm finding is that my child who had the most difficulty with Singapore is the one who NEEDS IT THE MOST. Why? Because it is helping him learn to think. It is the only thing in our curriculum that seems to give that part of his brain the workout it needs to help him think analytically. I anticipate that all my children will be on-track with their grade levels by September.