How do you handle poor narrations?

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LittleChickens
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 pm

How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by LittleChickens » Mon May 21, 2012 7:50 pm

My rising 6th grader is dyslexic.(12yrs old) He has overcome his reading difficulties and is now an excellent reader but other issues still remain. His has so much trouble with verbal expression so narrations are downright painful. He thinks in pictures and has to translate these images into a story. When we read a passage and I ask him to narrate, he gets a deer in the headlights look. His words are, "I know what it said but it's really hard to tell it"
We did WWE for 2 years and it led us through a guided narration with shorter passages at first and only one or two sentence narrations required. He did alright until the passages became longer. Dictation did go well, though, even with longer passages. It is the original thought that is difficult for him.

I really want to use HOD next year but I'm having trouble knowing exactly how to handle this issue along with wondering if Preparing would be too easy. He can definately handle all the reading in CtC or maybe even RtR but I worry that the narration and the writing. Also, he has to put A LOT of effort into writing anything. I think it is just the same issue except on paper. His paragraph writing is borderline and he does not seem to catch his mistakes, such as runon or incomplete sentences. Am I kidding myself with thinking he could keep up with the work? Should we just spend some time on this over the summer?

Any advice would be welcome!

christyg

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by christyg » Tue May 22, 2012 7:29 am

I don't have any advice to give on this because my dd is really struggling with this as well. We've got about a week left of Bigger to do. She is a GREAT student in every other area of HOD. Listening and narrations are just not her thing. I do think that she does better with them when it is something that she has read to herself. I was really hoping that she would have this down by the end of Bigger, but so far, she hasn't. :( So, I would love some tips as well! :wink:

Christy :D

LittleChickens
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by LittleChickens » Tue May 22, 2012 10:22 am

Wow. I never though of doing that. I think I *need* to look into a graphic organizer. As his school workload increases, this issue seems to be impedeing his progress. Perhaps this will help. In the meantime, someone suggested to me to let him draw his answers. I' not so sure about that, though.

Thanks for the advice!

my3sons
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Location: South Dakota

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by my3sons » Tue May 22, 2012 10:52 am

I have good news for you - CTC does a super job of guiding dc in both their oral and written narrations! :D HOD has ample Teacher Tips, Student Tips, and Editing tips in the Appendix of the guides to help dc become better at both oral and written narrations. Charlotte Mason is famous for developing narration as a very successful yet enjoyable form of assessment for virtually all subject areas. Graphic organizers (while very useful for other types of learning :wink: ) are not a part of CM style narrations. WWE is different from CM's style of teaching narrations, as it uses only a section of various reading passages and encourages more of a summation of the reading. CM's style of narrations assumes dc are reading entire books, and narrating along the way. It also encourages dc's narrations to be different from one another, rather than fit an exact answer key. Charlotte Mason taught that narrations should encourage adding your personality to a narration, sharing what struck you individually, and developing your own writing style. This makes narration personal, attainable, and memorable. I think you will find the CM style of teaching narrations to be a breath of fresh air, and while it may take a bit for your ds to make the switch, it will be one he eventually finds more fulfilling - best of all, all you need to do is follow the HOD teacher's guides plans, and little by little, dc's narrations will begin to improve. :D Keep in mind narration is a lifelong skill to be developed, and it is a slow burn - important skills like this don't develop overnight. So, with a little patience and perseverance, and a lot of me depending on HOD's help through the years, two of our sons are now quite proficient for their respective ages in narrating. I am looking forward to the continued journey - especially with our youngest, who is just going to be beginning to narrate for the first time in the years to come! HTH! :D

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

LittleChickens
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by LittleChickens » Tue May 22, 2012 2:19 pm

Great to know that CtC guides you through the narrations. My ds is otherwise advanced in reading, so I guess I am a bit reluctant about starting him in Preparing even though he could use the skills practice. Also, he does fairly well with independant work (if it is assigned) so he does not need much training there. He just needs to know what to do next because he will basically do nothing or read all day long. I have to train him to be a self-starter. My leaning is to go w/ CtC but Preparing was the recommendation from Mike due to ds' difficulties. I like the looks of both and I don't want him to fall behind in his studies by not beginning the history cycle in 6th grade. My younger two will be combined but they are all clamoring to study the midde ages. Knights and castles always appeal to boys I guess. We are praying through this decision. Hubby really likes CM and I have to rewire myself after having a classical mindset for so long. Classical just does not mesh well with learning disabilites. I think God has a sense of humor! I am a sequential, systematic learner therefore the classical model appeals to me, and all my boys are visual-spatial learners needing the gentleness of CM! Anyone have recommendations on how to get insipired for CM or how to decompress from classical? :mrgreen:

ETA- part of post removed by board moderator per board rules.
Last edited by LittleChickens on Tue May 22, 2012 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Heather4Him
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Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:56 pm

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by Heather4Him » Tue May 22, 2012 2:54 pm

LittleChickens wrote: Anyone have recommendations on how to get insipired for CM or how to decompress from classical? :mrgreen:

ETA- I did watch some of the youtube videos from simply charlotte mason. I like what I see so far.
If you read any of the books by Karen Andreola, especially A Charlotte Mason Companion or A Pocketful of Pinecones, you will be inspired!
Love in Christ,
Heather (WI)
~~~~~
16yog girl
DITHOR/CTC/RTR/Rev2Rev/MTMM

LittleChickens
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by LittleChickens » Tue May 22, 2012 3:02 pm

Heather4Him wrote:
LittleChickens wrote:
If you read any of the books by Karen Andreola, especially A Charlotte Mason Companion or A Pocketful of Pinecones, you will be inspired!
Thank you. I will have to add those to my reading list!

Carrie
Site Admin
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Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by Carrie » Thu May 24, 2012 1:10 pm

LittleChickens,

I just wanted to encourage you that CM-style narration is a skill that takes time to hone, and it is not a skill that is developed overnight or even in a single year. Think of it as a slow burn that takes time to build but does eventually become a raging fire! :wink:

In a separate post below this one, I'll paste part of a post that I wrote awhile ago, which explains the difference between a CM-style narration and a more classical-style narration. This will help you see why the transition to a CM-style narration can take time, even if you've had practice with classical-style narration in the past. :D

As far as your placement questions go, with the thoughts you've shared so far about your son's writing especially, I would lean toward Preparing Hearts as being a good placement for your son for this coming year. :D While it is possible that your son could handle the reading and the independence of CTC, my concern lies in the amount of written work and writing instruction required in CTC. With all children, but even more so with those who have learning challenges, it is so important to challenge them without challenging them to the point of frustration. This is the balance we are seeking for your son. Plus, the switch to a more CM-style curriculum can take a bit of getting used to as well, so we want to give him every opportunity to thrive. I think that Preparing Hearts would do this, and there are many important skills in Preparing that will literatally prepare him for the rigors of CTC. :D

With this thought in mind, I would recommend the Extension Pack of Preparing rather than the Deluxe Package (because your son is a strong reader). I would also recommend that he do the studied dictation in Preparing to help with his lack of proofreading skills and to help him pay attention to including punctuation in his writing. The exercises in studied dictation do eventually carryover into the child's writing. Again, this takes time (at least a full year) to see results. :D

I would also definitely add DITHR for literature study for your son, doing either Level 4/5 (if he has not had much in the way of formal literature instruction) or Level 6/7/8 if he has had quite a bit of formal study in analyzing lierature in the past. :D You could then add the appropriate level book pack to suit his reading level. I would lean toward either the Level 5/6 Boy Set or the Level 6/7 set. :D You will see wonderful graphic organizers all throughout DITHR, which really do help with analyzing various story elements and digging deeply into literature. However, these organizers are not to be narration helpers, and literary analysis and narration are two different skills. Instead, to help with narrating, we have step-by-step directions and guided questions to set the stage for a narration and get it started on the right foot. :D This method is very CM-oriented. :D

For grammar, I would lean toward either Rod and Staff English 4 or English 5. You will be completing an entire level of Rod and Staff through Preparing, so there will be plenty of grammar and writing instruction there. You will also have a once weekly writing lesson through the poetry of Preparing Hearts. If you felt you son needed more in the way of writing instruction, you could also add Igniting Your Writing Vol. I (which we also carry in our online store). Igniting Your Writing could be used once weekly on your free 5th day (as Preparing Hearts is a 4 day plan). :D

Last, you'd need an upped level of math. Preparing does schedule Singapore 2A/2B, 3A/3B, and 4A/4B, or you can use your own math. :D

You could also have your son do his own history and science readings, based on his age. :D Take care not to allow him to read ahead though, even if he wants to, as you will get better narrations with slower more thoughtful reading (of a higher level). This is the approach we take to reading in all areas and is definitely a trait of a CM-style education. :D

You can see as you look at this plan that there will be plenty of writing and steady challenge across the guide, rather than making it too heavy for your son and ending up dropping needed things (which is often what happens when we get too much rigor or change all at once). :wink:

Blessings,
Carrie

Carrie
Site Admin
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Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by Carrie » Thu May 24, 2012 1:22 pm

LittleChicken,

Below you'll find that I've pasted part of a previous post of mine that will explain a bit more about why it takes time to transition to a CM-style of narration, even if you've had practice in the past with a classical-style of narration. :D

Another way we assess kiddos through HOD is with CM-style oral and written narrations. Written and oral narrations CM-style look very different from child to child. This is different than written narrations done classical style, which result in more of a summary (meaning most kiddos' narrations will look very similar when done summary-style). These are two different types of narrations. One is a summary, with certain key points being required. The other is a true written narration CM-style, where the child sifts and sorts through information, choosing what to write about and borrowing words and phrases from the author to write in the author's style (without having certain key points that MUST be included for the narrations to be "correct"). :D

In this way, a classical style summary can have a specific answer key. A CM-style written narration wouldn't even know where to begin with an "answer key", as each child will draw out or seize upon different points to express within the narration. This is why in HOD's guides, we may ask leading questions to get the child thinking about what he/she read, but we leave the sifting and sorting up to the child as far as what to write and how to write it. The key idea within our guides on written narration days will provide you as the parent with a summary of the reading, so you can see if your child is on-topic in his/her narration, but it is not intended that the child include all those points in the key idea within the narration. :D

We do have children practice orally narrating in both summary style and descriptive style in our upper HOD guides, because it is important to have a balance of both styles of narrating. But it is important to understand the two different styles of narrating, as there is much more to narrating than simply summarizing what was read. Otherwise narrating in general can quickly become an exercise in outlining key points and will lose much of what makes CM-style narrating meaningful. :D

Since summarizing lends itself well to outlining, and these skills are both important, we teach these areas through Rod and Staff English in conjunction with science or history passages that are more factual. This is because a summary lends itself well to being written from just a portion of a book, while a written narration is instead intended to pull from a more continuous ongoing story, rather than just an excerpt. So, we tend to use ongoing books for written narration practice. :D

This is because the knowledge gained as the child continues reading the same book, provides insights that can then be drawn upon and pulled together as connections when writing the narration. This process requires a different set of skills than those required to write a summary from a passage plucked from a source, where the goal is a summation of the key points in the particular excerpt or passage instead. We delineate that summarizing and narrating are two different skills with two different styles. It is important to note that narrating CM-style is a very different skill from summarizing or outlining. I do skim the text as my child is orally narrating to me, holding the book in hand. This helps me see if the child is including ideas, names, places, etc. from the text, but it also shows me that the connections are those which the child has made! :D

I hope this helps as you ponder how oral and written narrations are handled within the HOD guides. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

LittleChickens
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: How do you handle poor narrations?

Post by LittleChickens » Thu May 24, 2012 1:24 pm

Thank you Carrie,

Wow,that gives me a MUCH clearer picture! I guess I had not fully understood the difference between narration to summarize vs. narrating to draw out the child's thoughts and self-expression. Very enlightening :D

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