Help with Science (Preparing/ Res to Ref)

[shellbell]

Hi Ladies,
I was wondering if you could help me with understanding the science experiments and how to go about them. My son in Preparing is the main one who has trouble. It seems that often on the experiments there just isn't much information for him to be able to even form some kind of guess or understand the experiment. (Please know that this is not always the case, but sometimes) Before we came to HOD my oldest (the one in Res to Ref) used a different science program that had experiments, but there was a lesson first that would at least give enough background info to where the child could form some kind of guess, his guess wasn't always correct, but he at least had some info to go on. I just share that so you can see my background and if I am off in my thinking when it comes to HOD science.

For example in Unit 10 Day 4 the reading for the day was The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible p. 20-21. Then the question was "What are the parts of an animal cell?" He came to me and said that he didn't even understand the question. I was working with something else, so I told him to reread his assignment and I would help him in a few minutes, thinking there was some info in the reading about cells. He said there wasn't anything in the book about it. I looked at the book and the only mention of cells was "God designed every part of them right down to the last cell." So I could see his frustration, since he really doesn't have much knowledge at all about cells.

My older son generally doesn't have much problems, probably due to the simple fact that he is older and has had much more exposure to science topics, due to previous years and just his own general reading he does and he is just better at connecting information and making inferences. But we have come across the same issue with him. For example ,in unit 14 Day 4 the question was "How does atmospheric pressure work?" There was no reading to go with it and any reading prior in that week had nothing to do with atmospheric pressure. He said he didn't even know what atmospheric pressure was. I encouraged him to try to go ahead and make a guess and he did, which he actually came up with a decent guess, considering he didn't know what atmospheric pressure was. OK I admit I'm his mom and a little biased. The guess he came up with was "I guess it presses on something with some kind of force, I just really don't know." However, after he did the experiment he still didn't have any idea what it had to do with atmospheric pressure and what it all meant. He could explain to me what happened in the experiment, but he didn't get how it all connected. I went through it with him, (using the info in the Key idea to help explain, thank goodness for the tidbit there, although it didn't have much to go on for him to get it, it was enough for me to help explain or I would have been doing some research on how best to explain it.)

I know we do not want to just "spoon feed" our children info and have them say it right back, but we want to teach them how to think for themselves and figure things out and that is part of experiments. But when my sons have no where to even begin it is frustrating to them. So I am wondering if I am misunderstanding how to do the science. Is what they have in the books supposed to be enough and we are just not getting it or are they supposed to need to go and look elsewhere to help them get info. (Like should I have told me son to look up atmospheric pressure in a dictionary? Which knowing him I'm kind of surprised he didn't do as he is one that would. Should I explain before hand to my other son that cells are small things that make up our bodies and every living thing and that they have parts that help them work? What do you think those parts could be? (Which is what I did to try and help him.) But then it says the Science is supposed to be done independently, so I would think it would have all the info they need to do and understand the experiment~ not that I mind teaching them, please don't think that! It is my job to teach them, not depend on books and curriculum, but I was just going off that it is supposed to be done independently and while they can do the experiments they often do not get how it all goes together and they need much more in depth teaching from me just looking over it and answering a question or 2, (so I would consider it a semi independent or even a teaching box is all I mean) so I just need to adjust my schedule to allow more teaching time for science, which is no problem at all. Generally the key idea helps me to be able to explain it better, but sometimes even I could use a little more info to explain it, when there isn't any mention in the books about the topic.

Please understand that I mean NOTHING against HOD. I debated for a long time as to even post this as I would not want to be a discouragement. I know Carrie puts so much into the guides, I hate to say anything that may come across as criticism. My boys love the science books and the notebook pages. They do great on the narrations and from those I know they get what they are reading. It is just with the experiments that we have trouble. I also waited as I haven't seen anyone else say anything like this, so I figured the problem was with us, and I still say that is the case. I finally decided to post because I just want a better understanding so that things can go better here and I can teach my children the best and use the curriculum and info in the guides to its best. I hope that all makes sense.

Thank you ladies!

[Heart_Mom]

Hi, Michelle!

The highest level guide I've done is Bigger, so I probably can't really answer your questions. But I did want to let you know that I've felt free to give my children a little information to get them thinking about a guess for their experiments. And I think that's really the point of making the guess, is to get them thinking, even if it's wrong. So, for instance, if my son didn't have any idea what a cell was, I wouldn't hesitate to give him a brief explanation. I wouldn't necessarily feel like I needed to always be with him for Science (this making it a box labeled "I" or "S"), but would just be available when if he got stuck.

Now, I may be approaching this wrongly, and I'm eager to hear the answers of some more experienced HOD moms. But I did want to let you know that your sons are not the only ones who sometimes aren't sure what to write for their guess!

[billswife]

We sometimes run into the same problem. I just have them do the experiment and then see if they understand. My other problem is that sometimes I don't understand either!!! Then we ask Daddy or big brother. If they can't answer to our satisfaction we hit the computer to find the answer.

[lmercon]

Couple of ideas to consider.

I wouldn't worry about helping a child with an activity that is labeled, "independent." Sometimes kids just need a little spark to jump start their thinking. For example, if a dc came to me confused about the animal cell, I might say something like, "Well, did you know that a cell is the simplest form of life? So, what kinds of parts would it need so that it can live?" The idea is to get them thinking. If they already know about animal cells, then there isn't much need to do a science investigation!

I ALWAYS have my ds do the experiment/investigation first, BEFORE reading. That way, his guess isn't influenced by the information he reads. It truly is a guess. I know that isn't how the guide seems to suggest it, but it makes sense to me and has worked marvelously. Then, after the exp. he reads the text. Sometimes what he learned in the investigation is directly related and sometimes it is more indirectly related. That really doesn't matter. You will find that sometimes the related material appears in the next reading or so to come in the unit. The order of activities each week stays the same, but doesn't always allow it to line exactly with the information in the text.

The scientific world really is SO very complex. There are some in the education community that suggest that young children should not even be taught science at all because they may learn things that are incorrect because to make it make sense to them requires the information to be so "dumbed" down that it's nearly false! While I don't personally agree with that, I do see the danger. I think elementary science is really more about learning the scientific method and staying open and intrigued by the natural world. I would provide whatever little helps your dc need to get their minds fired up. There doesn't have to be perfect understanding right now.

hth a bit,
Laura

[my3sons]

A "guess" is just that - a "guess", and I like this part of the scientific method as it is the part that most aligns with what scientists are often faced with in a lab environment. Riley reads his PHFHG science, thinks about what he's learned in science thus far (from LHFHG on up), thinks about what he's read for the day, and tries to make his best guess. Sometimes he's spot on with his guess, and sometimes he's completely wrong. That is alright! This mimics the lab as well. I like that the guess gives purpose to seeing what happens in the procedure of the experiment. It's exciting to find out - Will he be right? Will he be partially right? Was he off and is there then something new and exciting to learn? I like to model "guessing" for my ds to show I am not the all knowing teacher standing over him upset if he doesn't get the guess right (which would have been my tendency in teaching early on ). We talk through guesses together if he's at a loss. Sometimes we are right, and sometimes we are not. I am not all knowing about science theories either. But, boy do we learn a lot and love science then! We always read through the key idea together at the end, and that usually gives some good info for our conclusion. As dc get older, they have more knowledge to base their guesses upon, and this helps their guesses to hopefully improve - but - not all dc are blessed with talent in this area. Thank the Lord, as He has given a myriad of talents to each of our dc, and our world needs them all! A child should not feel like they are doing a poor job in science if their guess is wrong. They should feel empowered to draw upon what they do know and make the best guess they can, and then do the experiment and read the key idea to learn more. Science continues to get harder and harder as dc move through HOD, and I can see my oldest ds drawing upon all his previous years to do well. What I love the most is both of our dc enjoy Science so much, and as they mature and have done more years of it, they can apply it to daily life (see my weekly check-in if you want to read one example of how this plays out in our life)! HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[shellbell]

Hmmm I don't know if I was clear in my explanation...bummer thing about writing sometimes instead of person to person talking...

I am fine with my children not getting the right guess. That doesn't bother me at all. I am fine with any attempt that they make (except for "I don't know" to which I say, "It is fine that you don't know, that is why we are doing the experiment! We're just trying to think of maybe some reason and then we'll find out why when we do the experiment"). Then like you said we do the experiment and find out. That is the fun part. They know that they are not trying to come up with the right answer, and understand that.

My question was more about how to handle their frustration with have absolutely no basis on which to form a guess. When there is nothing in the reading about the subject, like in the examples I listed above and it isn't something that they have learned about in past years.

Then also since they sometimes have no background information the experiment makes no sense to them. Sure they can say what happened in the experiment, but the connection between the question and the experiment makes no sense. Like my son with the atmospheric pressure experiment. He could tell you what happened with the experiment: "Before you poke in the bag, you have to pull hard against this suction like force that's sticking the plastic bag against the sides. But after you poke the bag, it's a bit easier." But since he had no idea as to what atmospheric pressure was he didn't understand how what happened with the experiment related to the question. Even the key idea info didn't help him too much, but thankfully I was able to see what was going on, thanks to the key idea~ it was enough help for me to get it and explain it.

So I guess the best thing is to just keep on keeping on. We'll do the experiments and add in additional research and information that they need in order to understand what is happening.

[MomtoJGJE]

I think that the hard part for your kids is coming from a program that DOES give them the answers before, and doesn't make them think about it, you know? I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything. I just think, even now, if I were to tell my girls, who have never known anything other than HOD, to give a guess on what parts make up a cell, they'd give a guess as to what parts make up a cell. They'd probably be totally wrong, but they'd give a guess. They have a basis in that, not because they've learned about cells, but because they've learned that everything is made up of other things. HOD does a great job of teaching that it's all right to be wrong. It's all right to wonder about things that you really don't even know anything about.

Now with that said, some of the experiments don't work for us, or some the kids can't make connections about, but they aren't concerned with whether they've read the answers before or not. Like with the cell question... it sounds like your son is saying "I've never heard before what parts make up a cell, so how in the world can I answer the question of what parts make up a cell?" Where he's supposed to be saying "oooh, that's a great question! What parts DO make up a cell? Maybe its x, y, and z... or maybe it's a, b, c? Let's go see!!"

ETA: I just asked my oldest... she said without much hesitation "lungs, and... hmmm... where is your cell?? Let me think...."

[lmercon]

Don't be surprised if in a year or so when your ds is reading a book or watching a show, he says, "Hey, I remember doing that experiment with the balloon and trying to learn something about air pressure! Now, I get it!" My ds has had moments like that so many times that I've lost track. Research has proven that true learning doesn't take place until there is the presence first of true confusion. The mind must be confused and then work through the process of "de-confusing" in order to really learn. The fact that your ds was confused about this experiment means that he is in the perfect place to truly learn what atmospheric pressure is. Now, he may learn immediately following the experiment because he has enough pieces of background knowledge that he can finally put the puzzle together, or he may remain in a state of confusion for a while until he gathers new information in the future. Because this experiment caused confusion, it will stay in his mind, and when he finds the missing puzzle pieces, he very well may say something like I stated at the beginning of this post. Encourage him that confusion is the first and key step to really learning. Confusion is what has led to almost every discovery ever made.
hth,
Laura

[Carrie]

This has been such a good discussion on a very interesting topic! I agree with the wise thoughts that have been shared, and I will share just a couple more thoughts for all who are reading this thread to ponder as well.

Lmercon made such a good point that "real" science brings up a question kiddos probably do not know how to answer and makes them pause in a state of confusion and really take time to "wonder" about possible answers. It is that pausing and wondering stage that really results in real thinking. If we step in and automatically give kiddos the "one-right answer", then the child automatically stops wondering. CM would say that we desire for the child's mind to be doing the work rather than the parent's mind. The one whose mind is doing the work is really doing the thinking.

So, if every time the child has a question, we step in and give them the right answer, they will soon cease to wonder. Instead, the parent will be doing the thinking in trying to explain the concept to the child. While this may be helpful for the parent's learning, it teaches the child to just wait until the parent (or some other source) reveals the answer.

Our goal through HOD's science is to present kiddos with interesting living books about science and scientists that get kiddos thinking and wondering about God's world. We desire for them to question what they read, see, and hear. We want to get them thinking like a scientist, instead of just accepting whatever they are told. If you really think about it, not so many years ago we had far less answers about science than we do now. How did those scientists think scientifically if they didn't know the "right" answers?

If your child desires to look up more information to find out more about a subject broached in HOD then that is a good thing. If, however, you take the initiative and look up answers for your child in order to give the child the right answers, then that has become a parent led quest to find the answer to just tell or reveal to your child. Do you see the difference?

We pray your children will learn to think like a scientist through HOD's science. That is a different matter entirely than just learning the answers with very little thinking involved. While our younger guides do often lead the young child to some sort of guess based on the material provided, our guides for older students move away from this more and more (as the student is more able to think on a higher level as he/she matures). We want to encourage this type of higher-level thinking as much as possible. As kiddos read about real scientists and the questions they sought to answer, students will realize that questioning is the beginning of scientific thinking.

Blessings,
Carrie

[funkmomma71]

I know this is an old post. but I wanted to thank the lady who originally posted her question and all the answers given. Had I not seen this many months ago, I would have stepped in and done the heavy lifting for my daughter many times. Instead I have encouraged my daughter to think critically and with curiosity about the subject matter. During one of these discussion about what her guess to the question could be, my 4 year-old son piped up with a pretty good, though wrong, guess. That really fired up my daughter's desire to some real thinking!! I'm excited to see my daughter thinking for herself and not being spoon-fed the answers and she looks forward to her weekly science experiment. Thanks again!!

[Carrie]

funkmomma,

Thanks for bringing this thread to the top of the board! I really appreciated the fact that this thread was helpful to you, and I enjoyed your update!

Blessings,
Carrie