Give your opinion: Science in future guides

[Tiffini]

Carrie, I am so, so, so, so excited about these resources! I have was able to spend some time looking at them and I am thrilled! Thank you again so much for all the time, effort, and heart you are putting into this! I truly cannot tell you how thankful I am!

[marypoppins]

Carrie (or anyone else who may know the answer),

Your ideas look really neat. I do have a question, though, concerning how these plans match up with average state standards for jr. high science and the typical course of study for that age range? I know you were a middle school teacher so you are probably very familiar with the typical jr. high course of study. I guess what I'm asking is, I think for those of us who are somewhat new to CM, there is sometimes a fear that CM methods in areas like science will not be in-depth enough to prepare for HS lab courses that are required for many colleges. Seeing as how many homeschoolers tend toward resources like the Apologia General and Physical science courses in 7th/8th grades - I guess what I'm trying to ask is - whether the resources you listed are as in-depth or cover similar material as a traditional scope and sequence. I hope this makes sense....I'm not criticizing your choices at all, in fact, I find them very interesting. I'm just trying to gauge how they measure up against more traditional choices. It has been a looong time since my jr. high experience, and I can't for the life of me remember what we studied, although I do remember HS. Perhaps that is your point, though , to use more memorable materials for increased INTEREST and retention. I look forward to your response, and I am going to carve out some time this weekend to sit down and take a further look at the resources you mentioned.

[deltagal]

Carrie,

The science plans sound very exciting. I really like the flavor of where you are headed with these recommendations. I'm just wondering what you would recommend to those families who have used The Tiner book as part of the extension package? What is really exciting to me, is quite a few of these books are already on my list of books I want to cover with my children.

This perhaps, builds on a previous posters question, but I really would like to learn more about your philosophy regarding middle-school science and your choices which are delightfully different from other middle-school options out there.

Thanks a bunch.

[Carrie]

Ladies,

These are good questions and ones that we have spent quite a bit of time pondering ourselves, especially as our oldest son has now entered those final middle school years leading up to high school. What we have come to is that there are other ways to meet the science standards in middle school than by doing a barely down-sized version of high school science. At HOD, we are all about balance, and while it is certainly important to cover the necessary science concepts required for grades 6-7-8, there are more ways to do it than the textbook route.

With the upped requirements in science in high school, it is a sure thing that we will be spending plenty of time in that particular area during our kiddos' high school years. In our opinion that is fine for high school and suits the higher level of rigor expected for a high school student. However, in middle school, the level of rigor should be less and science should take a less than center stage approach. Yet, many of the programs we looked at do not allow that to happen.

Apologia's courses can take an hour and a half (and more often even 2 hours) daily, depending on how detailed the lab reports are done. This time allotment does not fit well within the balance among the subjects that we strive for at HOD, and it can also lead to early burnout over science for both parent and student. The size of the textbook alone is daunting! Rainbow science takes much less time (only 3 times a week) and has a slimmer textbook but requires a very expensive science kit and a 2 year commitment to cover its material. As a deciding factor for that program, we found the text to be pretty factual and not very living, presenting science as a body of facts with humor woven in. Its succinctness also seems to leave some concepts not explained in enough detail (making it tough for not very science-minded parents to struggle to explain). Bob Jones and ABeka are not very homeschool friendly in their included experiments, making them tough to do well at home.

We have visited with many homeschool parents and read endless posts on other boards to see what the feeling is in the long-run with science. Most parents seem to feel that while high school science is very important in following an exact sequence and including labs where required, middle school is a time to develop a love of science when the requirements are much less stringent and there is still time to do so. Kiddos who are very science-minded will still be very science-minded in high school, and (in our opinion) not be held back by not using an expensive lab science or one with a textbook like an encyclopedia.

My older sister has 7 children who were all homeschooled from the time they were preschoolers. Her oldest 3 now attend public high school. Her oldest daughter did 2 years of Apologia in middle school with it taking her up to 2 hours daily. She thinks her high school courses have never been as rigorous as her Apologia middle school texts (and she is going into pharmacy this coming year at college). She did not enjoy her science until she got to public high school and never considered a science field before that due to the overwhelming feeling she had with Apologia in her middle school years. Her brother, who is now in high school as well, did 1 year of Apologia, and while math is his strong suit and he is headed into engineering, he too took forever to complete his Apologia assignments. The third child, a daughter, had only a few weeks of Apologia science in middle school, before heading into public school, and says that none of her middle school or her present high school science has even been as close to as difficult as her few weeks of Apologia (and she is a freshman now). Each of these kiddos is first, second, or third in their class of over 600 students, so I think their opinion that that type of science is "over-the-top" for middle school is one that I value. Now you may be saying that more rigor is what you WANT and something you are looking for, but sometimes as homeschoolers in our quest to outdo the public school, we go over the top in the level of difficulty and rigor we require of our kids. Not feeling able to "do" the science at home also contributed heavily to my sister's choice to put her older kiddos in school. This is something that matters to me, as we desire to finish the call the Lord has made upon us to homeschool our kiddos. My sister's 4 younger ones are still at home being homeschooled.

At HOD, we will make sure to cover the science standards with our choice of texts and within our written work, however it will be done within a framework that looks at balance among all of the subjects. We will be covering the science standards by drawing out the study over 4 years, rather than doing it all in the final 2 years of middle school. In our desire to equip parents to homeschool for the long haul, we will be reasonable about what is required to equip our kiddo's for success in high school (and beyond) while balancing that which can be managed well at home. We also desire for our kiddo's to have a different science experience than the textbook and lab science we endured in our public school days.

It's interesting to note that thinkers like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Edison did not have much formal science, beyond plenty of time to read, ponder, and to try their own experiments. I ask you to think about how many students (once they enter "formal" science study through textbooks) do much of their own reading, pondering, or experimenting, or does it just become an assignment to be completed? Within our homeschool, we desire to encourage our kiddos to love science, to learn about science by getting to know the scientists through reading biographies, to see it as a way to show God's handiwork in all things, to test and try things, and to think deeply about why things work the way that they do. These goals for middle school can be accomplished with the resources we're listing above.

Now, if you have a very science-minded (and mathy) kiddo, or if you are very science-minded yourself, you may enjoy Apologia or Rainbow Science (or a different textbook science) for middle school very much. Through exhibiting at conventions we have had a chance to meet the authors of both of these curriculums and find them to be amazing gentlemen with a heart for the Lord and a passion for science. We just strive to provide something different in the way of middle school science instruction for those who may not desire to follow the more traditional path during those years.

You are always in the driver's seat as to your child's education, and we respect that with all our hearts! The programs I mentioned above (Apologia, Rainbow, BJU, and ABeka) are solid programs and are loved by many families. We will definitely be exploring these options for the high school science years! For middle school science, the deciding factor on what you use is on your family goals for science. As always, if your vision for science differs with any of our recommendations, you can easily use your own choice instead without affecting the rest of the HOD guide!

Blessings,
Carrie

[deltagal]

Within our homeschool, we desire to encourage our kiddos to love science, to learn about science by getting to know the scientists through reading biographies, to see it as a way to show God's handiwork in all things, to test and try things, and to think deeply about why things work the way that they do. These goals for middle school can be accomplished with the resources we're listing above.

Carrie

Carrie,

Thank you for your very thoughtful response. I'm very excited to see where your heart and head and HOD are! It is always a joy to encounter like-minded people. Sounds like the science for middle-school is going to be Terrific.

[Kathleen]

At HOD, we will make sure to cover the science standards with our choice of texts and within our written work, however it will be done within a framework that looks at balance among all of the subjects.

Carrie,

I love your plan and vision for scheduling the science! It looks great! And the balance is what I'm really loving about our HOD days. What wisdom I've gained from following your plans and learning that balance is something that was sorely lacking as I was getting going in my homeschooling journey! Thank you!

BTW, I can see Grant doing so much thinking about science as we're going through Bigger this year. We love HOD science!

Kathleen

[marypoppins]

Thank you, thank you, Carrie! You are always willing to be transparent, giving in-depth responses and sharing your heart with us. I really appreciate the philosophy and reasoning that you put forth in your post. I also appreciate hearing about your sister's experience with Apologia (2-3 hrs/day sounds positively dreadful!), and I am always comforted by the fact that there is so much thought, prayer and consideration given to your choices. I know that God is using you to accomplish HIS great plan through HOD, so I really just need to keep reminding myself about that. It has been quite a struggle to break out of the traditional paradigm -- the way I was taught -- even realizing myself that it was definitely not a very enjoyable nor memorable experience, and I would also have to admit, it's overall success is still questionable.

Now having said all that..... I know you are a "big picture" kind of lady, and a long-term planner like myself. Having laid out all of your ideas through about 8th grade....would you be willing to give us an idea what you are thinking about using with your kids for HS science if you've gotten that far in your planning? After walking us all the way through 8th grade, you're not going to leave us out in the cold, to navigate those scary HS years all on our own are you...???

[water2wine]

Carrie,

I so agree with everything you said. I really feel like it is about teaching them how to think and how to love Science more than anything right now. I used to see so many people come through the lab that did so well in a college like Stanford. They had all the facts but they lacked the ability to think and really that love of Science and sense of wonder for it all. That to me is the most important thing to give them even in high school. They do not teach it in college they way they should and I so want that for my kids whatever their field ultimately is that type of thinking is really a huge life skill no matter what path they take. And I feel like if they do not learn that first all the fact memorizing that is to come really lacks meaning.

I love your focus on Science. It's the perfect backbone for what I have in my heart for my kids!

[Mommamo]

Carrie, I love seeing your reasoning for things! It is really so very encouraging to me. I feel SO GOOD that we have found HOD. Like w2w said, I really want my kiddos to learn how to think and to love science, which the oldest absolutely loves right now. If we feel that we "need" more science, we can always do the classes at the local science museum, which we do some of anyway because they are SO FUN!!! So I think it's great that you are focusing on giving them a firm background in science while encouraging the children to love science and think scientifically.

[jewel7123]

Now having said all that..... I know you are a "big picture" kind of lady, and a long-term planner like myself. Having laid out all of your ideas through about 8th grade....would you be willing to give us an idea what you are thinking about using with your kids for HS science if you've gotten that far in your planning? After walking us all the way through 8th grade, you're not going to leave us out in the cold, to navigate those scary HS years all on our own are you...???

I'm curious about this as well!

[mrsrandolph]

I like Apologia. Have you considered it? It has thematic approach year by year...plants, animals, etc. I am impressed by it.

[Carrie]

Right now, we have our plan in place to write guides through grade 8. We will continue to be in prayer over what the Lord wishes for us to do after that. Our plan is to eventually make at least a listing available of what we've used for our own kiddos for each high school year (to cover all needed areas for distinguised track studies). We have a 7th grader this year, who will be heading into high school all too soon, so we'll be getting our own trial run coming up! I hesistate to post any specifics for high school yet, even though we have a pretty good idea, because my best-laid plans can be prone to change! Just be assured that we will be more than happy to help and guide HOD customers with suggestions on how to fulfill high school requirements as needed.

As far as using Apologia, as Mrs. Randolph mentioned, we are planning to use the Zoo. 3 book in our upcoming ancients guide. If you scroll back a page, you'll see our plan.

Blessings,
Carrie

[2girls2teach]

Carrie,

I love what you have planned for HOD science. As I have a rising 8th grader and am looking into (some) planning for HS, I have been looking at our homeschooling association's handbook for the requirements for HS credits. I am just going to copy/paste what it says (this is for SC), but I am concerned about the Physical Science part.

HIGH SCHOOL CREDIT REQUIREMENTS
4 English 4 Math 3 Science 1 U S History 1 Other Social Studies
½ Government ½ Economics 1 Physical Education 1 Computer Science
1 Foreign Language or Occupational Specialty and 4-7 Electives (The state requires 7 electives. HEA will waive
a few electives, but the student must have all core courses.) Remember if your student does more than the required
number of core courses then the extra courses will take the place of needed electives. Example: Only 1 Foreign
Language is required. If your student takes 2 or 3 Foreign Language courses then they have satisfied 1 or 2 of the
electives required.

Please check with the colleges that your student is interested in attending to see what their entrance
requirements are for students. High School graduation requirements and college entrance requirements
are two totally different things. For instance, for high school graduation you only need 1 foreign
language. But, some colleges require 2 and 3 credits of foreign language. Another example is Physical
Science. Physical Science is an accepted high school credit but some colleges will not recognize it as a
science they require for admittance into their program.

Maybe you can put your 2 cents in about the Physical Science part. (my screen is jumping around so I am going to end this one post for now).

Blessings,
Tricia

[Jen in Va]

Tricia,
I think SC is referring to Physical Science in that way because some colleges don't accept it as a lab science. In Va, I think at the time, if I tried to put my kids in high school, the schools would not have accepted their Physical Science as a high school level course, they would have had to take another in order to graduate. Our high schools offered earth science (which, by the looks of the info below, almost none of the colleges would have accepted as a science for admission to the school) the year my kids took physical science--we did earth science as an 8th grade course. So, maybe just look around at some of the colleges your children may be interested in. I don't recall there being an issue with the private, Christian colleges my son looked at, and I don't see one for the university he now attends.

Here are a few I just picked a random. My son went to Cedarville University for two years as an engineering student. Their recommendations for non-engineering students for high school science are: physical science, biology, chemistry. I checked Bryan College in Tennessee, but I don't see a recommended course of study for high school students. Just SAT/ACT scores and high school GPA info. The University of Virginia requires just two science from among biology, chemistry, physics--engineering majors have to take physics. UVA is one of the elite universities in the state. Here is Harvard's criteria: "To be well-prepared for college, you should study secondary school science for four years if possible: a year of chemistry, physics, and biology, and a year of advanced work in one of these disciplines. Courses in psychology, astronomy, geology, and anthropology are not appropriate substitutes for these subjects." So, it can be all over the map depending on what type of school your children will want to attend.

[sted]

I have a question. We've loved the Elem. Apologia books and heard lots of good things about the older books. Just curious as to why you wouldn't consider them for the upper levels? I don't know much about them but are they too textbooky for CM style? I've heard they are very thorough and God -honouring two things I would look for in an upper level science program.

Just my humble thoughts,
Shannon

Okay, I'm just scrolling down and am finding you might have answered my question. I won't delete my post however because maybe something wasn't touched on