example of poor thinking skills

[Gwenny]

My 13 yo daughter has trouble with some things that seem to me should be no trouble for somebody her age. I wanted to share what happened yesterday and see if you all think this is significant.
She was finishing up some missed assignments in CTC. (I say missed, but they were actually skipped on purpose by her--so, guess what she has been doing this summer?) I told her to get all experiments, note booking pages and science question pages together in order so I could check through and see they were all there. It took her FOREVER to get them all together (not to do any, just put "in order") I'm guessing over an hour and I'm probably being generous. I've stated before that she is really really slow in everything she does.
The note book pages were almost in order, there were some that were flipped, like 19, 18, 20, 21, 23, 22....32, 31 like that. Probably about 4 things flipped like that. The experiment pages started at 35 and went down to 1. (I have her always write the unit number at the top of all the pages) I asked her why she didn't put them in order starting at 1. This is the part.....she said, "I couldn't figure out how to do it, I tried several times but it always ended up with 1 on the bottom and 35 on the top." I think my eyes got really big, but I tried hard to be serious and show her how. Really???!!!!

That is one example of lots of things like that. Any of you mamas have insight into this?

Thanks!!

[Motherjoy]

Give her a similar task today, nothing that is related to school or punishment. See if you can gauge whether she is being manipulative or truly has a problem with thinking skills. Some of it sounds like laziness and carelessness, however, before getting upset or frustrated with her, it would be wise to make sure of what you are dealing with. Even if there are issues in thinking skills or processing skills, all of that can be overcome with training. Charlotte Mason talks about the importance of habit training, starting with attention and truthfulness. I'd probably start with spending 8 weeks working on attentiveness. SCM has a great resource for habit training, but I'd even add to that, and truly delve into helping her become attentive. For example, if she has trouble keeping up with her belongings, I'd seriously limit them for the 8 weeks, not out of punishment, but out of ease of training. Get her on your side, explaining what the goals are and why you want to move forward this way.

Oh, and another "test" that might help you is to have her list back numbers to you. For example, slowly and methodically say 4 random numbers (not in any order) and see if she can say them back to you in the correct order. If so, move to 5, then 6, then 7. This is a common test for processing, and can give you insight into whether she can hold pieces of information in her head sequentially.

[Little Women]

If she really has a hard time with this task, then she has a genuine learning disability. And to be clear, there is no reason I can see in what you have told us for her to be "faking" this. It's not common for a 13yo to be "so lazy" that she takes over an hour to do a simple task. A truly lazy person would simply throw it all together any old which way, and take 5 minutes, not an hour.

In this case, she is trying to put them in order, but she can't figure out how to start from 35 and work back to 1. She showed the same problem in the other set, though there she was apparently able to do it for a short time, then she'd get mixed up and go back to putting down the lower number first, then catch herself. But she seems not to have seen that she had been backwards for a short time, or perhaps she had given up on trying to fix it.

This seems to me like either an executive function problem (perhaps a lack of short-term memory or perhaps a lack of ability to make the brain work "backwards" for awhile) or possibly a math disability (this can be called dyscalculia). From what you've said in general, though, since it seems to be broadly based and not math specific, I'm thinking executive function.

I do think this is significant. It seems to be affecting her a lot and is probably frustrating her as well as you. For some of these things, there are ways to help a great deal, with different therapies. For others, you and she can learn ways to work around the issues, methods to help set things up so it doesn't trip her up as badly. She is going to need some of those things as she gets to be an adult, so learning to work with them now is important.

Unfortunately, these types of struggles are not cheap to deal with and usually not covered by insurance. Just getting the neurodevelopmental testing she needs is pricey. However, you can find some ideas to help you and her by googling and looking at your library, too. A good book, but not an easy read, is A Mind at a Time, by Mel Levine. He does the best job I've seen of describing different glitches in mental processing, and you can skim the parts that don't seem to apply and focus on the ones that do. (Amazon has used copies of this from 1 cent plus shipping. ) It's a bit hard to read, but would give you a good place to start.

[LynnH]

I agree that it sound like it could be executive functioning disorder and or processing issues. How does she do with every day tasks that have multiple steps. Do you have to cue her for each step or can she do the entire sequence without cuing? I am thinking about things like doing everything needed to get ready in the morning such as getting dressed, hygiene, fixing her own breakfast etc. If she has issues with these things then I would really lean towards executive functioning disorder.

[Gwenny]

She definitely is not faking this. She does have a horrible habit of lying and always has, but she will spend FOREVER trying to complete something. You are right, most would just do a sloppy job and try to be done. It can take her 20 minutes or longer to unload the dishwasher--she had that job for forever and it barely got shorter in time. She seems to have no idea how to make things move along quicker--like combining things, or strategies for shortening steps, whatever. Her brother took over the dishwasher duty a few months ago. I don't think it ever took him more than 5 minutes and he had to figure out where things went at first.

I'm trying to think of other examples. Not a great example, but happened today. She does her own laundry. It's in a basket in her closet upstairs. She sorts into two loads, in the closet. Puts the one load back in basket and leaves the other load smashing some clean clothes hanging up in the closet. Carries basket downstairs and starts load. When it's done (or hours later when I remind her) she puts in dryer and then takes basket back upstairs and retrieves other load. She will then use the basket to carry each load up and then fold and put away each load, bring the basket back down, etc. Usually, however, she will leave things in the dryer, leave the clean load in the basket and forget to fold it, etc. I give her more efficient ways of doing things, but she doesn't do them the next time. I'll give her an idea, but if she doesn't do it immediately, then she will never remember to do it. I hear 45 times a day, "ohhhh, I forgot..." with a miserable attitude that shows her frustration.

She never gets all of the steps done from something. If she is highly motivated she can to an extent. When she had ballet camp for a week starting at 8, she could get up on time, get all the way ready, have her bag packed, hair in a bun and make herself a lunch and be ready to go on time.

Hopefully I'll think of more examples, but I can't right now. Sometimes I think she's doing so well, and then she can't seem to problem solve at all. And, btw, she is horrible at math, especially with word problems. She is going to a place called Mathnasium and she's about done with the 4th grade level. She is 13.

Thanks for talking this through with me.

[Gwenny]

I'm taking my 18 yo Liberian daughter next week for testing with a neuropsychologist. I wonder if I should do that for her also. Our insurance is paying the whole thing! I couldn't believe it. We have already met our deductible and out of pocket and they cover this testing. I'm not sure what to expect though. I don't really get the testing and what they can find out and then what can be done about it.

[Gwenny]

Tiny bit of background. She was in foster care from newborn--8 weeks preemie, possible fetal alcohol effect, I know the mom drank a TON with her---went back to mom and dad at 11 months and was there until taken again at 24 months, in a shelter for a month and then with us since then. She has INCREDIBLE long term memory based on things she told us. I think short term memory is an issue now that I hear it mentioned.

[Little Women]

If you can get the testing paid for by insurance DO IT! Presuming they do it well, you will learn a lot! We paid for it ourselves, years ago, with my child who is now 19. It cost us $1500, and I'm glad we did.

[rumkimom]

I agree that you should get her tested. I also had my daughter tested and insurance paid for it all! If you tell the dr your concerns, getting a referral may help in having insurance to pay for it.

My 14 year old daughter has PDD-NOS (autistic scale) and Expressive-Receptive Language Disorder.

[LynnH]

Knowing more of her history including the possibility of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome then yes I would seek out a neuropsychologist. Our insurance has covered it twice for my son. It is very helpful to see the missing pieces of the puzzle. A good one will interview you first and get all the information and things your are seeing and then for my son the testing was 5 hours of testing spread out over 2 days and then we had another meeting with the neuropsych. It has been very helpful to us and if your daughter sees there is a neurolgical reason for her issues it might help with her frustration. It has for my son. He is never alllowed to use his challenges as an excuse, but it helps him to understand why certain things are hard for him.

[Motherjoy]

Yes, knowing the history points to brain issues. I'm praying you can get answers.

[Gwenny]

Thank you all. I've always been hesitant to do testing because I've never understood what we could/would do about the results. I didn't want it to just be "an excuse". My 18 yo's testing is soon and I was thinking that based on that I would schedule the 13 yo. Maybe I won't wait to make the appts.

[my3sons]

What a good discussion here! It does sound like there are some important considerations to make that are unique to your dc's early childhood. I pray you get the help needed in clarifying what may be going on! On a side note, I will say that I find around ages 11 to 15 (notice I have 2 boys right now in this age range ), that hormones are taking over and thought processes do seem to me to be much more jumbled and inconsistent. If I was not correcting my sons' work every day, making sure that each of them completed all they should have by going through things in our daily mid-meeting time and then again at the end of the day, I know things would definitely get missed because I am finding them as we check things together! I also will say that chores in our home need a lot of overseeing and training and checking. I wrote out the steps for doing laundry at one point in frustration that my kiddos were forgetting soap, putting colors and whites together, and washing everything on HOT. It took me forever to write out the steps! There were so many steps - I was shocked! It began to make more sense to me why things were getting missed. However, your examples of your dd (i.e. unloading the dishwasher and ordering numbers from least to greatest for unit #s) don't have many steps and really may be indicative of something more than hormones and failure to have attention to detail going on, especially in light of dd's time as a baby. So, I am praying that you will be able to sort out what may be due to her age, hormones, maturity, and her physical makeup and past. May the Lord make clear what is the best help dd needs, and may He put you in touch with the write doctors should that be what she needs most!

In Christ,
Julie

[jetzmama]

What a wealth of really good information here! Smart but Scattered is a (secular) book that was very helpful to me in understanding my own executive function issues, as well as those of my 16yo son. Charts, tests, layman's terms are all included. Not a replacement for a professional by any means, but helpful in educating myself and helping me better understand him. Anything involving the organization of papers is an executive issue for him (this includes a calendar). At 16, he can do it, but it is a struggle. A counselor recommended having him use an app like EverNote as his 'external pre-frontal lobe'. We've not tried that yet, but may get there. It would still involve inputting information, which is a major part of the problem.

He also has anger issues. No yelling, screaming, outbursts, etc, but lots of passive aggressiveness. I'm often not sure if failure to comply with a request is an executive function issue or an expression of passive-aggressive anger. Before my head left the pillow one morning last week, the title, "The Heart of Anger," popped into my mind. I immediately knew that doing an anger study with him is essential. I mentioned it to him a few nights later, relating how the title just popped into my head. Shockingly, his response was, "I think that would be helpful for all of us." We have the book, but in trying to find the workbook, I realized there is a version for teens by the same author, Lou Priolo. The title is "Keeping your Cool" and it is grounded in Scripture. I've ordered it and we'll prayerfully go through the charts and questions together over the next several weeks as we consider the application of each chapter in our own lives. The teacher in me wants to count this as a partial psych credit, but will probably refrain.

Not sure if this is helpful, but know firsthand that executive function issues can cause lots of friction that can lead to anger within a home and did not see this facet addressed previously.

[Gwenny]

Thanks for addressing the anger. She definitely struggles with it--sometimes it's hard to tell if she's frustrated by me and the request or by her not remembering and being frustrated with herself.