can't copy without mistakes

[Gwenny]

So, my 14 yo Liberian daughter who I've talked about before has such a hard time copying things without lots of mistakes. She leaves out words, spells things incorrectly, doesn't capitalize, flips letters in the word, etc. This isn't dictation, it's straight copying. I thought that I could just go through the spelling lists in Bigger orally with her before moving on to the dictation because I thought she would probably know the spelling. Well, we couldn't go past Unit 16 (I probably should've stopped at 14). She didn't know how to spell the words. To let you know where she is:
(came from Liberia Oct. 2005)
In Bigger with my almost 9 year old
Reading the grade 2 book pack for DITHOR (read Hannah and now reading Pioneer Cat)--it's a perfect level for her
Really struggles with vocabulary (doesn't know meaning of words even in these early books)
Can not do very well narrating back after readings (getting a tiny bit better)
I tried to put her in R and S 4 a couple of months ago simply because I thought it would boost her up a little bit that she's not doing all work for such young people, but it's not working. She can't get the subject/predicate thing. (sentence: The ball rolled away. "what is the subject, what is this sentence about?" after thinking a long time she answers ball, so I ask what the predicate is, or what does the subject do, she answers "the ball rolled away". We continued to talk about it and tried to get her to answer and she never could. This is after doing subject/predicate for several weeks.)

I think I should put her back in R and S 3.

Any other thoughts? Help. Will her copying improve as we keep doing it?

Nancy

[holyhart]

I'm just curious...how much copying are you requiring of her right now? Maybe you could slow down with her and have her do only 1 line until she can do one line correctly. Then move on to 2 lines, etc. Just a thought.

[8arrows]

I am a little confused. The date seems like your daughter has been here for a little while. If so what was she using before? Was she doing well with that? Is she just struggling with a new way of doing things? I would definately use Rod and Staff 3 if 4 was overwhelming. It looks like the reading level of R & S 3 might be a better fit considering her DITHOR level. I also like the idea of starting with less copywork until a small amount of work can be done well.

[Gwenny]

She has been here for quite awhile. We have used different things, mostly all Rod & Staff curriculum. We were using Tapestry of Grace for history stuff, but she really didn't fit in any level and just reading wasn't getting her anywhere. We started out with grade 1 stuff and she's moved through grade 3. There has been some improvement, but really not much. That's why, when I found HOD, I thought we might've found the key, something to really work on these skills in a systematic way. Because she is so old, and she doesn't struggle with handwriting (the physical aspect of it like little ones) it's seems so crazy to tell her to only do one line. KWIM? Since there has been so little improvement over the years, I wonder if there is some learning disorder. Maybe I just need to give this more time. I thought maybe some of you all would have some great advice.
So, if I should do one line at a time, just have her do one and then me check it and then she can move on right away? I shouldn't "stand over" her and watch her write should I?

Thanks!
Nancy

[Gwenny]

I just thought of something else. She has trouble following instructions in a book. For instance, when we were doing the R&S 2 together, we would go over things orally, I would explain the directions to what I wanted to write out and then I would check it. Almost every single time (if not every time, I'm trying to be generous) she would not have done it correctly. If they said to only write the word that goes in the blank, she wrote the whole sentence, for example. I had already read the instructions with her, asked her if she understood, and then it would be wrong. She is not at all defiant, I know that she is trying. It's very hard to understand. Also, the 19 yo Liberian daughter we have as well, and she came at the same time, she has never been able to get passed a 3rd grade reading level. When they first came they spoke "Liberian English" which is English with a twist. Nobody could understand a word they said for at least 2 years (except for us of course b/c we got used to it). When my husband was in Liberia he said he could not understand them at all unless they were speaking to him and they tried to speak clearly, it sounded completely like a foreign language. The accent is strong, they don't finish words but cut off the endings, they also have a very small vocabulary, horrible grammar and they use different words than we would use here in the States. The girls are still very difficult to understand. I think it might've been easier if they had spoke a different language. Because they knew enough to get by, we could communicate with them without them having to change very much.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on.

Blessings,
Nancy

[Gwenny]

I forgot to mention another reason why I think HOD will be so great for her. (we're only finishing up unit 2 today-we've moved a little slowly) The short readings are great for her. She can actually tell me a few things that I just read to her. We are a book devouring family and I'm sure it was just too much for her to take in. Only reading a few pages of something is still hard, but I'm starting to get used to it.

Nancy

[mrsrandolph]

I was a reading specialist before we adopted our oldest from Vietnam. So, that's where I'm coming from.

She may seem to be "reading", but she is merely "word calling". In other words, she may be able to say the words on the page in Pioneer Cat, but if she doesn't know what the words mean, she is not reading.

Reading includes comprehension...meaning.

I would start completely over.

If she can figure out how to decode the words of Pioneer Cat, her phonics skills are obviously intact. Now, you need to work with her on reading for meaning. You really need an assessment of where she is vocabulary wise...like on what grade level does she understand words.

If you read "Owl At Home", would she understand those words?

I might look into a specialized ESL reading curriculum for her that you can use at home.

Is she comprehending the History and Science lessons of the guide you are in, or do you need to look at backing up there?

[Gwenny]

Well, I'm nott sure if she is or not. I've been fooled so many times. (not that she is fooling me, I just tend to assume) I've looked into getting Rosetta Stone English. What do you think about that? I think that she would understand Owl at Home. Is there a test of some kind for vocab?

Thanks!
Nancy

[Mercy]

Hi Nancy,

I have a a friend who adopted from Liberia and I know she struggled with some of these same things. When I get a chance I will have a chat with her and maybe you could exchange email addresses.
I will PM you after talking with her and share with you what she tells me.

Mercy

[mrsrandolph]

How is her conversational English? How old is she? Other siblings and ages? Also homeschooled?

[tnahid]

I would say that Rosetta Stone would be a good way to have her learn as well. Is there a way to take her to be tested or something, like at a Sylvan Learning Center or something like that? They might could give you a better feel if she really does have any learning disabilities. Or another tutoring center? You might want to try doing Phonics Pathways with them. I know it is a book that goes for all ages and is a very effective way to learn to read. It is just one book.

[Gwenny]

Mercy: that would be great to hear how your friend has done.

mrsrandolph: Her conversational English, well...she struggles with matching subject/verb agreement and tenses, in Liberia they use almost no different tenses nor do they worry about plural/singular so for the last 5 years I am always correcting her and working on that. I'm sure it's better, but it seems that it should be all better by now. If she speaks very slowly then she can be clear, but when she's not focusing on speaking slowly than she has what I call "mush mouth". Words are slurred and sometimes unintelligible. Probably 2-5 times a day I have to say, "I have no idea what you just said", then she goes slower.

She will be 15 in July. Biological siblings-we don't have any of them. We have one other daughter from Liberia who is 19 and she is in the same situation as the 14 yo. In fact, the 14 yo is more advanced. Maybe they would've done better in a more structured school environment with a full time tutor. (we never would've sent them somewhere though, we don't want anything being "brought home" if you kwim) She has a sister in WA state that we went to see once and from talking to her mother, she is doing really well in school. I have a bunch of other children and we homeschool them all.

Maybe I should look into testing somewhere, maybe I should just continue on with Bigger like we're doing and see how things are after we have done a year with this wonderful curriculum. I will drop her down to R&S 3.

Thanks everyone for listening.
Nancy

[mrsrandolph]

Nancy,

I would really consider testing by a neuro-psychologist. They test for everything. First they would meet with you without your child and get background about what your concerns are. Then they would tailor the testing to address those concerns.

We did this for our son who has varied issues.

Our neuro-psych was very homeschool friendly. After getting the test results, we felt we were so much more well equipped to teach our son. The Neuro-Psych will also be able to make recommendations about particular resources you can use.

Insurance covered all of this for us.

I do NOT think you should have sent your kids to public school. Of course the advantage of school is an immersion in English. That is good. But the cost is WAY too high : )

Do you do TV? One thing I learned while getting my ESL certification was how beneficial TV can be for kids whose primary language is not English. Of course you want to be really careful about what they watch. But something like the Little House series... You could watch too and be there to explain the situations and word meanings.

Dick Van Dyke is another show you can get via Netflix that is wholesome and funny. Andy Griffith is another consideration. I would avoid anything modern because most of it is trash. What decent programming there is is geared toward preschoolers.

Most of all, I think it is CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT that you continue to read aloud to her as much as you can. Read from varied levels of difficulty due to vocabulary differences. Even though Charlotte Mason would disapprove, I recommend that when you read to a child whose primary language is not English, that you act as kind of an "Amplified Bible". Let me explain...

Here is a quote from the story "St. George and the Dragon". In parentheses are the words I would add to "amplify" the text for the English language learner.

"My father, the King, is old and feeble (and so so weak). He has only me to help take care of his people (the people of our kingdom). This terrible dragon has driven them from their homes (so they had to leave), carried away their cattle, and ruined their crops (all the things they had planted)."

The words that you add are added in such a way that they seem like they are actually a part of the original story. It takes a little thinking on the fly. But you are using the actual vocabulary of the story. So, the child is getting that exposure. But, you are also defining the unknown vocabulary in a way that does not impede the flow of the story.

I hope that makes sense.

My son has an auditory processing disorder. Since I have begun reading like this to him, his ability to do retellings has sky rocketed.

[Gwenny]

Thank you so much for your help! I will look into that testing.

I usually comment as I'm reading and explain things as I go, so it was an eye-opener for me when I started HOD and reading about CM that we're not supposed to interject. I have to keep making myself to shut up and just read the pages. I see how yours in different though than what I was doing. I would read a little while and then stop and re-tell what I just read in simplified language. I think that I need to read books to her like I read to my little people. She missed out on all of that when she was little and then when she came here we were always reading older books--seemed like we should since she was older. I keep thinking that I've pulled back and dropped levels, but then I realize again and again that I didn't go far enough or realize the extent that she wasn't understanding.

I appreciate your help.

Nancy

[mrsrandolph]

My pleasure any time. My best to you!