Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

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seekhimfirst
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Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by seekhimfirst » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:48 pm

Sorry if this is answered somewhere already! Just to clarify, I am not doubting anything just curiously asking here. I am understanding the point of oral narrations and then written narrations is to retell as much as they can and "borrow" some of the author's language from the reading. I've read a couple threads on that.

My question is where does summarizing come in? Is that helpful to be able to gather the main points from your reading as well? I feel like I still push for more of a summary (give me the main points) than I should according to what I have read in the guides and here about it. I am trying to get it right especially with my younger two who will catch on to this more quickly if I start out the correct way. Is summarizing taught elsewhere (meaining R&S or ?) or later on or just not? Please forgive me if I sound silly or the answer is obvious but if someone can explain it to me I'd love to hear! :D
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing it is from the Lord you will receive the reward of inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
Col 3:23-24

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abrightmom
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by abrightmom » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:12 pm

:D I think this is a good question and I'm curious as well. I suspect that Rod & Staff, which has an excellent composition program, will teach summary skills. But I do not speak from experience as we haven't used R&S yet (it's on its way to our home right now though :D ). I have NO doubts that every important writing skill has been taken into consideration when planning each level of HOD. I do hope that someone with specific experience will chime in as I'm all ears! :D
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:10 pm

seekhimfirst,

This is a really good question, and one that gets into the finer points of writing. :D I'll do my best to answer from my perspective to show the direction HOD takes with this. :D

To me, CM style oral narration, which later becomes written narration, focuses on the child making sense of what was read by sharing what stood out to him/her in the reading. They are to originally do this by borrowing words and phrasing from the author and eventually move toward more ownership of their narrations (still narrating in the style of the author's writing but not really reciting word-for-word anymore what the author said). Rather than looking for a certain series of main points, the child is to share what struck him/her from the reading, making the narration process personalized to each child, rather than looking for a one right answer type of narration where everyone's narration looks the same. :D The skill of orally narrating in this manner leads very well into written narration done in this same manner. So, written narrations aren't meant to necessarily be a summary, but instead to share the flavor of the author's writing from the reader's perspective.

Some children are more drawn to summarizing simply because they are "big picture" thinkers. My oldest son is definitely that way. So, narrating in a more summary-like manner for him does not make that type of narrating "wrong", but if I start looking for him to include certain key points and requiring him to have those in his narration, then the lesson has strayed into a summarizing lesson rather than a narrating opportunity. :D

I will share that even though my oldest son thinks in main idea steps, his narrations still capture the flavor and style of the author, which is another key difference in summarizing versus narrating. Written summaries are often written more like an outline or like a note-taking exercise where details are not abounding and using wording from the author or of your own style is not a focus. Instead, a summary often reads like a succinct paragraph where there is little extra flavor and where the author's style is not evident. :wink:

In contrast to my oldest son, my next son in line is a detailed child. :D He is very descriptive in his narrations and can get very lengthy when narrating, yet does it beautifully. I share this to show you that although my two oldest boys are so different in their approach to narrating, yet they both are doing it well. One in a more summary fashion (in the author's style) and one in a very descriptive fashion (often giving very long narrations). Yet, both are good writers both creatively and also in more formulistic settings like with the Medieval Writing Lessons, even though my boys may differ greatly in their narration style. :D

So, now with the groundwork laid, we come to your question. I see summarizing as an important skill that is taught best through outlining and later note-taking of more textual material, such as that found within history and science books. Using classic literature for a summary exercise means that much of the flavor and style of the story is being lost in the focus to get the main ideas down on paper. Where narration, in contrast, is a child's opportunity to share what struck him/her in the reading and what made the reading memorable to him/her. While this at first may not seem as important of a goal as being able to summarize, in truth it is the sifting and sorting and deciding which information to share that is the "work" of narrating which leaves the impression on the child's mind for years to come. :D

At HOD, we teach summarizing through outlining and note-taking through the Rod and Staff lessons and also through some of our writing programs such as Medieval History-Based Writing Lessons. Since summarizing is definitely a more formulistic skill, more in the "one right answer" vein, in our opinion it fits best in that category, as it takes much of the personal part out of writing. It is a necessary skill and one I think comes more into focus as kiddos get older and have a need for it. But, I will say that my two oldest sons can both summarize easily, which I think comes from years of sifting and sorting through what they want to say (or write) within their oral or written narrations for the living books we've scheduled throughout HOD. :D

I hope that helps a bit as you ponder through this. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

pjdobro
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by pjdobro » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:39 pm

I'm not the OP, but thank you so much Carrie for that thorough discussion on narration! It makes me continue to wonder if I am doing it right or guiding my children in the correct way. I've read the narration tips in my guide and I try to give a good example narration when the guide directs me, however I don't know if my narration is quite what it should be. I am a summarizer by nature and very logically minded. My education and past career was mechanical engineering so that probably says it all. Most of my writing was focused on technical writing where getting across the point in a succinct way was most important. Most of my public speaking was more geared toward informative talks as well so I tend to get out the main points and gloss over details. I'm wondering how I can make sure that I am narrating properly and that I am guiding my children the correct way. Are there any video clips available showing proper narration styles?
Patty in NC

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previously enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, RTR
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seekhimfirst
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by seekhimfirst » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:11 pm

Wow! Thank you SO much, Carrie, for taking the time to give such a detailed answer! I had found a couple more threads that did help but you absolutely nailed what I was asking with your response here. :D I am so glad I asked because I will be more confident in leading my kiddos to do this! And again, I in no way doubted how things are done, I just wanted clarification so it will help me to understand and teach better. I will be reading this over (and over probably) to make sure it soaks in! :D
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing it is from the Lord you will receive the reward of inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
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mom23
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by mom23 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:25 pm

pjdobro wrote: I'm wondering how I can make sure that I am narrating properly and that I am guiding my children the correct way. Are there any video clips available showing proper narration styles?
Agreed! Anyone able to share examples?
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:22 pm

Ladies,

I'm hoping that I didn't somehow give the impression that there is one "right" way to narrate, as I was trying to show the contrast between my two sons and show that there are children (and adults) who automatically narrate in more of a summary type fashion simply by personality and there are those who are more detailed and narrate that way. The key to either type of narrating is to drop in bits of the author's phrasing and some of your own comments as you go. :D This will keep it from being so much like an encyclopedia type entry and will really call attention to the way the reading was written and to the child's connection with it. :D

I know there are some examples of oral narrations in posts on the board. I found this one of my3son's in weekly check-in thread that will show the progress her little Riley made during his narrations in Beyond, so I'll paste it below for reference. Just remember there is not "one" right way to do this but rather each child's oral narration will look different from another's narration. :D

Beyond Little Hearts for His Glory:
Riley is nearing the end of Beyond, and time has just raced by. He is doing so well with it now. He really grew into it, and I'm happy with the work he is doing. One huge growth for him has been in orally narrating. Here is one of his earlier narrations that I typed as he spoke (as the HOD guide has us do):

Oral Narration by Riley
Feb. 3, 2009
A Lion to Guard Us, Chapter 3

Mistress Trippet came to check the kitchen, and she looked everywhere that she usually did. She looked in the room and she said, “How old are these kids? How old is the boy?”

“8”.

“How old is the girl?”

“Only 5.”

And when Mistress Trippet went upstairs, the doctor came in. The cook said, “Amanda, go and get a pail of water!” That wasn’t very nice, was it?

The doctor came in and then he said, “Come with me, Amanda.” And she did, and then went dark into the hall. And he said, “Your mother has died.”


Now, here is the narration he did this week:
Riley’s narration
Mountain Born
Jan. 13, 2010

The weather was brooding, and Peter was at Granny’s house working for his coat and his new vest. And the wind started blowing, and it was sharp and cold from the southeast. And then Granny said, “Peter! You’d better go home. The wind’s picking up!”

And Mary and Peter had planned to do a game night tonight, but the wind was just picking up too much. They were going to play checkers and some other kinds of games, and Granny was going to read them a letter.

So Peter went in, got his vest and his coat on, and he said, “Goodbye, Mary! I’ll have some nice wool for you, and I’ll take extra care of the lamb, so that the wool will be strong.”

“And after a few years,” Granny said, “you’ll be in manhood. You’ll have to give me white wool, and I’ll have to dye it dark blue. It’ll take you to manhood, but then you’ll need a new coat.”

Then Peter said, “Bye, Granny! Bye, Mary!”

Granny gave him a slice of bread and his milk, and then he started on his journey home.


These are my3son's comments...I'm so happy with his progress! I have to admit that I find it painful at the beginning to start teaching oral narration. After getting used to listening to my oldest narrate, going back to teaching it again for the first time to my next son was a bit of a shock. Anyway, I thought I'd share this to encourage moms just starting out with narration and feeling a little frustrated that your dc may not seem to remember much - this skill does grow with time and persistence, and it is well worth the effort.

I'll link a different example in another thread if I can find another one. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:47 pm

As an example, I typed my oldest son's oral narration word for word today as he gave it on his reading for geography Nordenskiold Accomplishes the North-East Passage. Just remember that he's a freshman in high school (age 15) and has been narrating awhile, and he tends to be my summary narrator. :D

The Northwest Passage had now been conquered at great loss of men, leaving only the Northeast Passage open as a road to exploration. In Switzerland, a man named Nordenskiold was chosen by King Oscar of Sweden to make the voyage that had been attempted for centuries.. to sail through the New World to reach Asia. They set out in a small walrus hunting ship, steamer, that was specially reinforced so as to withstand the ice of the Polar Seas. After long days, they came to Chelyuskin, the most northerly port of the New World. When one crewman was asked the most proud moment of their journey, he replied, "Undoubtedly when we anchored off of Chelyuskin". Before leaving the cape, Nordienskiold left a message in a tin box containing the ship's log for that day stating that he had landed there on August 19 and then added below in English and Russian that whomever should find this box should forward the message to his Majesty the King of Sweden as soon as possible. They continued onwards until they were frozen solid off of the northernmost part of the Polar Seas. There they remained for 294 days, until in the middle of July the ice melted and they continued on their journey. Afterwards they made it to the Behring Strait, in between Russia and Alaska. Sailing downwards from there they reached Japan. They were greeted by the Emperor, and a special Imperial medallion was minted for this historic occasion. Departing from Japan, the Vega sailed around Asia, through the Red Sea, through the Suez Canal, into the Mediterranean, back out to the Atlantic Ocean, where they sailed into the Baltic Sea to complete their voyage at Sweden circumnavigating the globe. Thus was completed the journey that was attempted by Columbus, Cabot, and other such known explorers. A journey which many thought was preposterous, incredible, and undoable.

You can feel the style of the author M.B. Synge come through the narration in my son's choice of wording. Hope this helps! :D

In contrast, when asked to give a summary of this same reading this is what he said:
In July, 1878, a Swedish man named Nordenskiold set out on an expedition funded by King Oscar of Sweden to reach Asia by sailing north and over the New World. Provided with a steamer called the Vega, they first docked at Copenhagen, then docked at Gothenberg and entered the Kara Sea, anchored at Cape Chelyuskin, and attempted to steam eastward to the New Siberian Islands, making it as far as Khatanga Bay, where the ship was frozen in ice 294 days. At Cape Chelyuskin, Nordenskiold left a message in a tin box saying that on the 19th of August he had anchored there and wrote below it in English and Russian that whomever found it should forward it to the King of Sweden. When the ice melted, Nordenskiold and his crew sailed through the Bhering Strait down through Japan, from there down the Pacific into the Indian Sea, through the Arabian Sea and into the Red Sea, crossing into the Mediterranean Sea via the Suez Canal, up the Atlantic past Britain, into the Baltic Sea and returned to Sweden.

I hope this helps to show the difference between telling back a reading in a child's own words versus parroting back required key points instead. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by LynnH » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Carrie,
This is a very enlightening thread for me. I know my ds is a summary narrator and I try really hard not to correct his narration (unless he just states something that is false), but I also am realizing I probably need to encourage him in a slightly different way also. He really doesn't capture much of the authors voice. He likes to give very short sentences that really don't have much "personality" to them. I have been gently talking to him about that this week and I think he is starting to get it. Today he was supposed to do his skit for Archimedes and the door to science. He acted it out, but he actually did a oral narration as he did it. It was the best oral narration he has ever done so I wasn't about to stop him and tell him it needed to be more skit like. I am thinking he may need to be up and acting out all his narrations to actually capture the true essence of the book.
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:20 pm

Here is my third little son's oral narration that I typed as he gave it today for his science. He is on Unit 3 of Bigger Hearts and is 8.

When the tide comes in, it covers up the animals. First of all, take a mussel for instance, he gulps up water so his shell is full of it so that he can breathe and stay moist. Shrimps capture little worms underwater, and then they eat the worms. When the tide goes out then, the mussel glues himself to the ground. Take a limpet... they float back to their resting place and glue themself to the ground too. Try moving one of those! Only in really big storms can you move the mussels and limpets. Crabs hide under rocks when the tide goes out. Day after the day, the tide goes in and the tide goes out, and repeats. And so the animals follow that cycle of float around, get food, and get back on the ground before you're washed out to sea.

Blessings,
Carrie

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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:48 pm

Here is an example of a history written narration from my 11 year old, currently doing RTR. It was meant to be approximately 8-12 sentences:

Peasants were the hardest working humans in the fuedal system. They must plow their field with a ten foot strip between each row of plants. They had to give a tenth of their food to the lord, as well as every tenth egg, lamb, pig, chicken, and coin! As if this wasn't enough, they must make the lord's flour, bread, and wine, and they had to pay for it without getting any themselves! Additionally, they must pay the ransom if the lord's wife, daughter, son, or himself was captured. On top of this, when anything was built the peasants must pay for it and...build it! All this for protection from their enemies? I didn't quite think this was fair.

Here's an example of one of my 11 year old's science written narrations from RTR:

Venus is a hot planet and has sulfuric acid in its atmosphere, so no heat can escape. How would we send a spacecraft here? Radar. How could you know where there are craters and mountains? Radar. We sent spacecraft to orbit Venus with radar, learning its shape. So a non-piloted craft can land. (Where it was destroyed by weather immediately!) If you ever want to find Venus in the sky, just look before dawn or just after sunset. The one "star" you see is Venus. :D

Here is a written narration from my 11 year old's science where you can see a bit more of his "personality". :D

Neptune has ten moons. They orbit Neptune. Triton, one of the larger ones, is zooming closer to its employer Neptune every day! Why is it not getting closer? The answer is right above! Triton wasn't orbiting Neptune from the start. It was yanked out of its calm path by Neptune's gravity. It was employed whether it wanted to be or not. It is now a moon. So, what does this have to do with Triton zooming closer to Neptune? As it is not an original moon, Triton is continually being pulled toward Neptune. As if in defiance, Triton orbits in the opposite direction of Neptune's orbit and is the only moon known to do that. Triton also has hundreds of geysers dotted around, ready to blow the first probe they see back to earth. One probe did come actually. It studied Triton and learned that on an average it is 400 degrees below zero! Now, after you have read these delightful facts, you should be able to decide... is Trition a good vacation spot? Good-bye and good luck!

Blessings,
Carrie

pjdobro
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by pjdobro » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Those examples are so helpful! Thank you so much Carrie for taking the time to include those. :D I feel like my narrations are of little personality and I don't feel like I really capture the essence of the author. :( My oral narrations would be closer in style to the written narrations that your 11 year old son does, I think. I tend to be very generic and to the point. So my question is this, how do I learn to narrate more in the author's style and how to I direct my dc that way as well? In reading these narrations, I feel my dc have a long ways to go, but I'm not for sure how to guide them. Thank you so much for this thread, I'm finding it very helpful! :D

PS I do have the original Charlotte Mason series, but I've read very little of it. I couldn't quite get into the language and was overwhelmed by all of the information. Is there a specific book or section in that series that you would recommend to help me with my narration skills?
Patty in NC

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previously enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, RTR
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by doubleportion » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:23 pm

Carrie wrote:They are to originally do this by borrowing words and phrasing from the author and eventually move toward more ownership of their narrations (still narrating in the style of the author's writing but not really reciting word-for-word anymore what the author said).
Carrie,

I just wanted to tag on to this thread and ask further- How does teaching to "borrow" wording and phrasing in their narrations later keep them from plagiarism? When they are "borrowing" these words or phrases are they aware that they are not their own? I'm just concerned that as you build that habit when they get into high school or college that they will not be aware that others might see that usage in their writing as plagiarism? How do you delineate the difference?

Edie
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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:03 pm

Lynn,

I think you're on the right path with encouraging your son to find his voice in narration. Some kids truly do better when "acting" it out or giving it microphone style to entertain an "audience". :D Other kiddos may really rather do it personally one-on-one in a low-key way, so all kiddos are different. :D

I really think complimenting kiddos whenever they use words that are unique to the author's telling is one good way to encourage more of that type of style in their narrating. Just so you know, we do refer to two styles of narrating in our upper guides, asking kiddos to give more of a descriptive narration on some days and more of a summary narration on other days. This is one way that we eventually show kiddos the difference between the two types of narration and allow them to practice both types. However, we wait to do this until kiddos have had years of practice narrating on their own first. :D

Blessings,
Carrie

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Re: Another Narration Q...and Summarizing

Post by Carrie » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:10 pm

Edie,

This would be no different from what students are already doing when writing essays or reports at the high school level in other types of curriculums. They would quote directly anything quoted exactly from the author, take care not to use an entire phrase of the author's in a row without placing it within quotes, etc. However, they can use some of the author's descriptive words in their own sentences, share sentences in their own way while still reflecting the author's sentiments, or write in a blend of the author's style and their own without it being plagiarism. :D

This would be similar to what takes places when kiddos are orally narrating, as they are not supposed to look back at the book as they narrate, but rather are sharing from memory what stood out to them from the reading (and almost never will share word-for-word what the author said, but will instead phrase it their own way with some words the author used sprinkled throughout to give it the author's flavor). :D

Edited to say... I'll share a quote from CM Volume 6 that I found again after posting pages for Patty that I think sums this up better than I can on my own. :D

Having been brought up so far upon stylists, the pupils are almost certain to have formed a good style; beause they have been thrown into the society of many great minds, they will not make a servile copy of any one but will shape an individual style out of the wealth of material they possess; and because they have matter in abundance and of the best, they will not write mere verbiage. (Charlotte Mason Vol. 6 - p. 194)

Blessings,
Carrie

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