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I have a child who just will not obey.....in fact, will go out of the way to be disobedient most of the time. It has been a years-long struggle and I just don't know what to do about it. We have tried a myriad of things....this child barely has any privileges left because they've all been taken away due to being untrustworthy. It relates to schoolwork, chores, lies, really every part of our lives. It is taking a toll on all of us....I am very upset about this and I just can't seem to get through to this child. Explaining my reasons doesn't work....still defiance. Fortunately this child is still young enough and not out in the world on their own. I shudder to think what kind of things could be going on....I dread that time, kwim? I am to the point where I do not enjoy teaching this child any longer...it's such a difficulty every day, knowing this one does not want to learn from me. And very discouraging. Does anyone have any words of advice, tips, suggestions? If you've been through this or are going through it will you please offer some help? I so need it, and thank you.

When I feel at a loss, I am always encouraged with what i find at raisinggodlytomatoes.com.
I don't do what is suggested very well, but am encouraged to keep the struggling one closer to me instead of always sending them away.

Hmmmm....I was just looking at that site again today. We have been doing some of what she suggests.....requiring that this chid stay with us, cannot play out of earshot, cannot play outside without supervision, go on any group outings, etc. It just doesn't seem to have helped much....except that we know more and sooner when something happens. Maybe we're not doing it as she suggests? I need to read more and try to gain more knowledge....and I definitely need to work on the part where I get angry with dc. Thanks for the reminder....I'll be reading some more.

I'm sorry I don't have any practical suggestions for you. But I was reminded specifically last night (as we're dealing with a few discipline issues with our own dc) that God wants ME to come to HIM with MY frustrations. I tend to look everywhere else at times, but what I need to do first is get on my knees. He is our HELP! I'm praying for you today!

By far my favorite parenting book is Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. I'm still working through the things to do in it. Like saying things in a postive way and reflecting feelings. I stink at reflecting feelings! but I"m working on it.

How old is this child?

10 years old

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/ has some great articles on child training.

I don't know how to advise you in this area, except to pray earnestly for a change in your dd's heart. I didn't have to deal with anything that extreme with our older dc. Our adopted dd(7) has some control issues. I'm hoping that with the character training in HOD, it will help her. I hope and pray we don't face anything too extreme when she is older.

I was just wondering if your child has stated why she doesn't want you to teach her. Have you tried talking to her and asking her if there is something bothering her beside not wanting you to teach her? What kinds of friends does she have? Could that be an influence? What is her attitude about spiritual things? Will she listen if you share Scripture that would show her what GOD has to say about her behavior? When our oldest 3 were growing up, if I thought something was bothering them, I would talk to them and encourage them to open up and talk about it. Keep the lines of communication open. If your dd will not talk to you, do you have a good pastor's wife or another Godly lady that she would possibly confide in? Just some thoughts.

I almost took dd(7) to a counselor because of some behavior issues, but she seems to be doing better. We need to continually reassure our love for her, but at the same time, let her know that we are in charge. One thing I'm thankful for is that dd is sensitive to what is in God's Word, so she will listen. Praying you will have God's peace in your family.

She has not stated that she does not want to learn from me. However, we have issues quite often where I will tell her how she needs to do something, tell her why, she will say "okay" then immediately do whatever it is the exact opposite way. Such as in math....I and her father have told her she needs to show her work...because much of the time (most really) if she doesn't and does it in her head she gets the wrong answer. Our reasoning is that if she writes it down she may see her mistake...and at the very least we will be able to see right away what was done wrong. We had this problem today, and she immediately did the next problem (we were doing practice problems on the white board) without showing her work. She did not show her work because "I really knew it this time". She did get the answer correct, but it's her attitude, that she is disregarding what I tell her to do, deciding she doesn't need to do as I have asked.....and it carries over into all of her life. Not sure how to get through...I am praying too. It's all just very frustrating because she is making life harder for herself and the rest of the family.

I'm just pondering this with you and am wondering if maybe you and your husband have begun to micromanage this child and added in a bit of "emotion" to ice the cake. As I looked at the last example you left I thought it didn't strike me as disobedience, but rather some learning "confusion." For example, showing work doing math is a very common thing that many children simply have a difficult grasping and may even find mundane if they really know the material. Next time why not say, "Let me watch you do one problem and show the work, so you can show me how you figure it out. If you get it all correct, you can do the rest on your own." I would spend a lot of time affirming this child, encouraging them to come alongside you do to "chores", be intentional about giving them your undivided attention to get her going in the right direction with her work and then let her be. If she sasses you and backtalks and physically assaults you and the other children then yes, you do have some work to do, but if she's having trouble following through on directions, it may be a learning issue and not a disobedience one. She may be more visual and less auditory then you realize, etc. I have a child who I can give instructions to all day long, but if he doesn't "see" how to do it, he's at a loss. I'm profoundly aware that I relate better to some of my children then others...but that's because of me not them. You mentioned - lying - that's definitely a concern, can you post an example? Also, does she spend any time online or listening to music or playing computer games or watching tv or videos?

Florence,

I have to say, you are absolutely right. We are micromanaging her and there's definitely emotion involved, on all our parts. However, I feel she's kind of forced it to be this way due to her behavior. Because of lying about what happens (If there's an argument between her and one or more of her brothers) we no longer allow her to play upstairs or outside with them unless we are there too...then we know what has happened and don't have to decipher or choose to believe one over the other. I will ask her to go put something away (whether it's hers or something like towels, blankets, etc.) and will find she did not do it as requested. If the shoes go in the closet they will be placed outside the closet door. If the towels are to be stacked neatly on the shelf they will be placed sideways, with towels and hand towels all mixed in. If I say "please go put your purse in your room" it will be placed inside her door, and her response is "It IS in my room" even though she knows it's 'place' is in the closet (a spot that was chosen by her). It is partial obedience, which in my opinion is not obedience at all. We have showed her how to place the towels, more than one time. She is aware that the shoes go inside the closet and that her purse is to be placed on the shelf. It seems as if she requires us to say exactly the right words or there's a 'loophole' she can twist through. Does that make sense? I would agree with you about the math...she has had some trouble understanding some of the concepts....except I am working with her directly and showing her. We backtracked a little in her math book and I have been going over every lesson with her orally before she does the lesson problems. We use a white board and go ever each problem together. If she has trouble I try to talk her through it, showing her how to do it or where she messed up as necessary. I don't think she would ever assault me physically, but she does talk back quite often. The lying....oh, she just hates to tell us something she knows she will be 'in trouble' for....so she'll lie about it instead. Or, if I ask her if she did __________ she'll say yes, knowing full well she didn't. (such as hanging a shirt, properly, on her hanger or did she just throw it across the bottom of the hanger) I know this must sound very strange and nit-picky....but the laziness factor is huge and I just feel we can't allow her to continue in those behaviors. Her online time is very limited...Webkinz or direct supervision with me or her dad if she is looking something up. She does use a Mavis Beacon typing program daily, video games are allowed on weekends only (for all the kids), and TV is allowed in the afternoons if school work is complete. There is probably more of that than I would prefer, but it is closely monitored...there are many shows other people allow their children to watch that I don't allow....they mostly watch Animal Planet and cartoons on PBS. Music is limited to her cd's that her father and I have put together, cd's that are accessible in the kitchen, or the Christian radio station we have on in the car. I hate to talk so much about all the 'bad' things here. She is a very smart girl, I love her so much, and she has some great qualities. She loves to play with her sister, create things from scratch, shop with mom, cook, read lots of books, go on outings with Daddy.....I'm just searching for a way to nip these habits in the bud and turn her away from where the lying, laziness, and disobedience can lead.

Some of those things sound like my 9 yr old son. I tell him he needs to show his work and he says "i can do it in my head". And he usually gets it right but not always.

A few of the things she does sounds like ADHD stuff. Not saying she has it, just saying you could research it a bit.

First of all praying for you and your dd. I have just a couple of thoughts. About lying, I'm not sure, but you may already have this rule. In our home, lying is the biggest NO-NO!!! On the other hand, no matter what my dc do if they tell me the truth they do not receive any discipline. I remind them often that they should tell the truth. Could your dd be lying because she's afraid of getting in trouble?

I've recently been reading Seasons of a Mother's Heart by Sally Clarkson and there was a quote in it that really struck my heart. "A child needs sympathy hardly less than he needs love; yet ten children are loved by their parents where one child has his parents' sympathy... [It] is unquestionably true that in no way can any parent gain such power over his child for the shaping of the child's character and habits of life as by having and showing sympathy with that child." Henry Clay Trumbull from Hints on Child Training. I don't know if you have Sally's book or not, but if you do read the chapter entitled "A Touch of Sympathy".

I do have Trumbull's book but haven't had time to read it yet, but it comes highly suggested. Personally I'm sure I am heavy on law and not enough sympathy or grace. I can see shift in my relationship with my dc. We're at a point of trying to establish good relationships and trying to getting them to obey to please us ("Son, give me thine heart.") This is not easy for me. I'm use to saying something and expecting it done (and rightly so), but the Lord has really been working on my heart to instill in my children not just a fear of consequences, but of disappointing their friend (their mother/father). I want them to want to please me.

None of this may be what is needed for your situation, just where I'm at in my walk right now and thought I would share.

Here is a link to the resources we use in our mom's group at our church. We have the student guides at the bottom of the page, but the other resources look great too. In our mom's group, we were taught that a child needs to learn attentiveness before learning obedience even though many things say to teach obedience first. The thought behind this is that the child must first hear and be able to understand exactly what is expected of them BEFORE they can obey it, and be able to attentively do it. Not sure if you can find these on other sites or not, I couldn't when I looked but you could try if you wanted. When we did obedience (and we've done it more than once as the younger children get older or just as a "re-fresher" we have made posters and used the games/songs suggested in the student guide and the kids have really enjoyed them. There is also a great story in each guide about a famous American hero (many are about Abe Lincoln!).

http://store.characterfirst.com/iwwidb. ... tem_submit

Hope this helps

I have Laying Down the Rails from Simply Charlotte Mason. This is a really great book on training children. You need to replace her bad habits with good habits. You have to work on only one at a time, and really focus on this trait. We started with obedience. Obedience is to Cheerfully and immediately do what a person of authority asks you to do. We worked on memorizing Ephesians 6:1 and talked about what it means to obey cheerfully. One thing I had a problem with was video games. When I told the boys it was time to turn it off, they would say they just needed to finish the level or that they didn't get a good turn. Now, they know to immediately turn it off when asked.

I also have read about Tomato Staking and it sounds like you have a good basis down, but you are not following through everytime. If you ask her to clean her room, you need to stand in the doorway and watch to make sure she does it correctly. I know this is time consuming, but it was worth it in the end for me. After 3 months I can now tell my 10yo to do something and I know that he will do it right away and correctly.
Another thing I did was get a bag of marbles and a jar. When the jar was filled he got a camping trip with just mom and dad. He earned marbles for obeying cheerfully and immediately only.