Does anyone use FLL and/or WWE with any of HOD's guides?

[graceonly]

I really like FLL for my 1st grader and WWE for my 3rd . With HOD I see there is a lot of dictation , narration , copywork , are FLL or WWE still necessary ?

Just started FLL and it's just what my son needs ! He has a slight speech delay and it seems FLL builds up his language . He loves it too . So if I continue with it , will I have time to do it or do I have to cut some of HOD's LA ?

Also , I would be interested to hear how WWE is compared to HOD's LA part ?

[crlacey]

FLL and WWE are not needed as HOD LA used at the correct levels are enough.

This year, we used Beyond and I did use FLL with DD instead of the grammar in Beyond because DD wanted to do the grammar 3 or more times per week instead of just the once a week scheduled in Beyond. We pretty much covered the same type of things by the end of the year, DD just like the format of FLL a lot. That being said, we plan to use Bigger as written since the grammar is Rod and Staff.

Depending on what guide you are planning to use with your son, I would think WWE would be overkill on top of HOD's LA.

[my3sons]

Ditto to what crlacey said. I can see using FLL as she did just for that year when grammar is only once a week in Beyond, but otherwise it would be overkill and so would WWE. My ds had speech therapy for 2+ years, and he has thrived with HOD's LA. In fact, he just aced his standardized testing in LA areas. Give it a try - I think you'll be satisfied.

In Christ,
Julie

[lovedtodeath]

If you want to use FLL instead of Rod and Staff I think that could work. We used FLL 1 and I really don't think that is necessary along with HOD.

With WWE the skill progression/way of teaching may be different, so you may want to go ahead and use it, but not with all of the writing in HOD... rather as a substitute at times.

[my3sons]

After BHFHG, multiple levels of dictation are offered in each HOD guide, so there's a greater range of choices for levels. Dictation Day by Day: Books... are used. These books have stood the test of time and were suggested for use on Ambleside. Carrie is blessed to have obtained them as they are difficult and almost near to impossible to find. The copies she has even had leaves and flowers pressed between the pages - and notes in the margins. It felt as if we were holding a special piece of history in our hands as we went through them. Anyway, the upper levels of this dictation are passages and get quite difficult, so as long as you have the proper level of dictation for your dc, you are set with HOD for that.

Copywork, written narrations, and oral narrations are done within the context of history, science, Storytime, and Bible time in HOD. Linking it to living books and learning that is already taking place within different subject areas being studied within the day makes these LA skills meaningful and memorable. Because all of these skills are so beautifully covered within HOD already, FLL is not a recommendation of HOD. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[lovedtodeath]

Seeing these other posts made me think about it a little more. FLL and WWE are different in their approach to narration. The work in HOD seems more similar to FLL. WWE is in a class all its own, but some students don't really need all of the incremental steps.

[Carrie]

graceonly,

The ladies are already doing a great job of answering your questions, but I will post a link to a thread that will help explain our experience with First Language Lessons as compared to Rod and Staff: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3963

While you can easily use any grammar program you desire with our guides, using First Language Lessons and Writing with Ease daily will definitely add time to your day beyond what we are allotting for these subject areas. If using either of these programs causes you to skip portions of our oral narration, written narration, writing assignments, or story discussions it will also affect the flow of your HOD guide (depending on which portions you are skipping).

As far as WWE is concerned, we do cover all of the skills found in WWE within the HOD guide, but we do it in the context of what we are studying for the week. We differ from WWE in that we are not simply assigning a portion of a passage from random literature (albeit classic literature) to apply comprehension, retelling, narration practice, and written narration practice. Instead, we are scheduling and teaching how to do these skills within the context of wonderful literature that we are already reading aloud, living science books that we are reading daily within the core program, and within our already scheduled history readings. So, the topics on which kiddos are discussing, retelling, and writing are wound within our studies, rather than being a separate program. This would be the Charlotte-Mason way of teaching, practicing, and applying these skills. Since these skills are already found within our guides, we find adding another whole program, such as WWE, to be redundant.

In our younger guides, we take a CM-style gentler approach to writing and grammar, so we will differ with the classical approach to language arts in our early guides. CM believed it was important for kiddos to first copy from excellent literature, poetry, and the Bible; to read extensively from great authors; to have a strong foundation in oral retelling; and to have a foundation in spelling and grammar skills (coming mainly from copywork, dictation, and oral narration) prior to being asked to write written narrations. This is the approach we take in our younger guides.

WWE also focuses on writing a summary, rather than writing a true CM-style written narration. Summary narrations sum up the big ideas, but often leave out the style and flavor of the author in order to emphasize coming up with the "right key points". Charlotte Mason style narrations, in contrast, focus on paying attention to the style and wording of the author in order to write the narration in that style (borrowing wording and phrasing from the author that stood out to the reader to use in the written narration). This pays off big dividends as kids get older, because they will truly have been reading and writing in the style of great authors - which eventually pours out of the child's own pen or pencil as the compilation of great writers comes together to form the student's own style of writing.

Our DITHR program works well for teaching comprehension, higher level analysis, and for pulling out the key points of a story, so those skills are also covered within our guide. Through DITHR, rather than only working on comprehension, we are also working toward teaching kiddos to read with moral discernment. This is another goal that is not met through either FLL or WWE, and is one of the most important goals that will impact what our kiddos feed their minds as adults.

When using Rod and Staff for grammar in combination with the skills taught within our guides, we also reap the blessing of having the focus be on the Lord and His word within our study of grammar and writing as much as possible . For our family, this is another important goal, as we want the Bible to be throughout all we do. We find the ultimate purpose of grammar and writing is to portray ourselves both in writing and in speaking in a way that glorifies our Father in heaven. Using Rod and Staff helps us reach that goal, while still providing excellent coverage in both grammar and writing. When paired with the other language arts scheduled within our guides, a very academically strong, God-honoring language arts foundation is the result.

I can appreciate this discussion, as I know many of you come from a classical background. While you will find some elements of CM and Classical to overlap, you will also find them differing in some very key ways. It is the differences that are worth pondering to find the Lord's best for your family. This past thread may be of help to you as you ponder the differences: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2453

Blessings,
Carrie

[Busymomma1]

Thanks for your input, Carrie. I was just pouring over Bigger today, and thinking about the extension readings my dd will be doing. And I was looking over the WWE guide. Now that I've got a better grasp on the scope of things, I was realizing exactly what you are saying... there's either going to be redundancy and adding time into the day, or skipping things, b/c there is LOTS of overlapping. I guess when I bought WWE I was thinking I'd need some "hand-holding" through the process AND I was not yet familiar with the Bigger guide. But now, when I consider that if I follow your plan for narrations with the history extension reading (along with the other narrations in the guide)... and perhaps just pulled some dictation out of those... that would be exactly what my dd needs. So now I'm wondering if I need to sell my WWE! I was just picturing our day, with me "urging" my dd on to complete things. I mean, it's going to be challenging enough with the extensions and DITHR 4/5, let alone adding in ANOTHER dictation/narration program. Call it a rookie mistake. But I'm glad to realize the problem AND solution BEFORE we start!

Also, I REALLY appreciate your description of the differences between HOD and WWE, in that you promote true narrations and WWE focuses more on summaries. I'll admit that I was getting a bit confused this past year with FLL, when the assignment was to summarize passages in 3-4 sentences, and yet on the other hand, I was thinking narration was more open than that. Now I understand the differing philosophies more.

Thanks so much, again, for taking the time to describe these differences, Carrie. I think you just may have convinced me to simplify our time in Bigger! OHHHH, and it just dawned on me... after going through Bigger and WWE today, I was feeling like "how am I going to organize all of this/do this?" and I "think" I prayed a quick prayer asking God to help me know what to do. (Hard to remember... I was sleepy and soooo ready for a nap!) Well, I think your post was an answer to prayer!

After studying both Bigger with Extensions and WWE more, I see that there is PLENTY of narration/dictation opportunity for my older dd. ANYWAY, you can tell a lightbulb went off for me in this area. I now think I don't need WWE... I so appreciate Carrie's gentle way of correcting my misunderstandings!

[lovedtodeath]

I would sell WWE. We were happy with it when we used it, but most people shouldn't need to use it with HOD. Letting it go as opposed to shelving it might reduce your stress.

[Carrie]

Busymomma1,

I thoroughly appreciate your follow-up response, and I enjoyed taking the time to answer on this thread as I'm sure there are many, many moms that have the same questions! There are so many HOD moms that read the board without ever posting that are blessed by the dialogues and explanations on the board. As we are going through the process of sorting through options and planning our years, other moms are too. We can all benefit from talking through things!

I often find the Lord directs me to answer certain topics on certain days, as He knows what is most needed. Thank you for bathing your year in prayer. The Lord is faithful!

Blessings,
Carrie