An honest question about CtC-would love to come back!

[striving2Bprov31]

Last August I started my dc ages 9 and 7 (at the time) in Bigger Hearts. We were brand new to homeschooling then, and Bigger Hearts was just not a good fit for us. Some of the reasons were that we were just not ready for the Eggleston books (that type of writing) and as far as hands on projects, we love being very elaborate with those. That is just us. The bigger and messier the better. My dd9 was also not ready for the CM method with schooling. She had been in the classroom setting for 5 years and we needed to deschool first. A program like HOD was just too much of a "culture shock" for us academically, especially since we were trying to just simply adjust to homeschooling.

I really love the programs I am using now with our kids as it is working fine--if it ain't broke, don't fix it right??

I would love to come back to HOD eventually because I miss the open and go. I miss the easy prep of it. That is one thing I was so impressed with and spoiled in using HOD that first 8 weeks of our hschool. I also love how it is wholly Christ centered.
I am concerned again about the history spines for my ds who will be almost 9 by then. Being "older" living books-we do read a lot of older books, but they don't ALWAYS click. I have learned this. By the way, for what its worth, we are major bookworms.
I am looking at CtC for next year. I really love the looks of it. It has a lot of aspects that Bigger Hearts did not have.

I guess my main question is this: Are there any of you that found Bigger Hearts was not the greatest fit for you, but found that you and dc LOVE CtC??
For what it's worth, I use LHTH with ds3 and love it, and I loved using Beyond with ds7. I had to quit Beyond because I just couldn't manage doing 3 seperate programs per day with dc. So I do love Beyond.

Sorry so long and hope this makes sense!
I would really love to come back to HOD for CtC.
Thanks,
Liz

[inHistiming]

I just want to mention, in case you don't realize it, there is a guide between Bigger...and CTC....the Preparing...manual. It gives an overview of world history. My dd (just turned 10) is using it this year and is loving it...doing very well with the independent parts, and we're both enjoying our together reading time. It could be something you want to take a closer look at. My oldest ds 12 is doing CTC and he loves that...but I wondered if you just didn't realize Preparing...is available....

Just a thought.

[Carrie]

Liz,

In reading your post, I can appreciate the reasons that you shared that Bigger Hearts was not a fit for you at this time in your life. It sounds like you have found something else that you are currently using and enjoying, and I'm glad that you've found something you feel fits your family better.

After being an educator for more than 11 years prior to learning about Charlotte Mason, I can understand the learning curve that comes with embracing her philosophy and applying it to the school day. It IS a big change from the way we were taught and it does require a shift in thinking to really come to terms with her ideas as being beneficial in the school day. It took me several years to fully grasp which parts of her philosophy fit our family's goals for educating our children. But, there is much in her philosophy that makes complete sense to me now.

I also can understand the fact that although you've shared you are an avid book-loving family, yet you had some trouble with Eggleston. This is because there is a definite difference in reading books in a consuming manner and in reading books slowly and savoring them by pondering and thinking through them as you read. This is a key to a CM style education, and one that took me a bit of time to accept. The Eggleston books are better read slowly as they require a stronger, more mature listener and are ones that grow on the listener/reader slowly over time. This is often true for many of the best books. They rarely grab you right out of the starting gate, as they take time to acquire a taste for them and also time to mull over and really get the meaning. Yet, they are the books that stay with you or your children for a long time after you've closed their pages. The work that it takes to process the material is what sustains the memory of what was read. It is a different type of reading.

With that being said, we do choose books of that nature for the student to "live with" and grow into as their history spines. We steer clear of books like encyclopedias or other textbooks with blips of various facts as spines (as they're meant as reference books, not as living reading material). We instead look for books that are written by a single author, who is passionate and well-versed in the subject matter about which he/she writes. We choose people who have spent much of their life consumed with the writing of their material and who have spent years in the process. Edward Eggleston was a Methodist minister and a free-lance columnist. His stories were written after much research, travel across the U.S., and often after personal interviews with surviving relatives of the person(s) about which he was writing. His information is often eye-opening, as it contains little known facts and stories about the famous men and women of early American history. He also wrote very narratively. This makes his books stand out for us, far above the watered down texts that are common fare for students of American history today. So, we also choose books that are enduring and have stood the test of time.

In homeschooling, we often want our children to be able to listen easily to what we read aloud and to understand all of it with very little effort. We typically use the test that if they beg for more it is good for their ears. Yet, Charlotte Mason routinely picked books that were much above kiddo's listening level and required much work on the part of the listener to understand. She found that over time, even homeless children who worked in London factories and had no prior education could still learn to listen to, understand, and enjoy the difficult literature. Eventually they would beg for more, but they had to work up to that level of listening before this was true.

In this way, Bigger Hearts is an excellent stepping stone in training our kiddos to listen to, understand, and enjoy difficult literature. Kiddos and parents who make the effort to learn through Bigger Hearts have an easier time with Preparing Hearts and CTC. Whether or not you are successful with those programs, our future programs will require the same effort that it would take to be successful with Bigger Hearts.

In looking at our guides, it's important to know that the programs are not all about the spines; they are all about the philosophy behind the spines. The philosophy drives our book choices, drives our activity choices, and provides consistency among our programs. This is why one program prepares a child well for the next in line.

Anyone who is new to HOD, will have some training to do and will likely have a learning curve at first with whatever guide they begin in first. This period of adjustment gets easier as you reap the benefits of continuing with HOD through the years. This is true of most things in life. They are not easy at first, but get easier as time goes by. Should you ever feel the Lord lead you back to HOD, we will be glad to have you here.

We can easily help with any placement questions, or combining questions, questions about the specifics of a program, or any ideas to help you use any of our programs more successfully; but it's also a good idea to see that much of the decision of whether CTC will work for you goes back to what your philosophy of education is and whether it is similar to ours at this point. So with that in mind, rather than turning this thead into a listing of things that moms have liked or disliked in Bigger Hearts, which is of very little constructive help, if you could rephrase your original question to one that we can constructively help answer about CTC that would be appreciated.

Blessings,
Carrie

[annaz]

Liz,

rather than turning this thead into a listing of things that moms have liked or disliked in Bigger Hearts, which is of very little constructive help, if you could rephrase your original question to one that we can constructively help answer about CTC that would be appreciated.

Blessings,
Carrie

Maybe you would want to know some common things along with differences in the programs? I can't help you CTC vs Bigger. What I can say is this: We did Beyond. I wouldn't say that Beyond was the greatest fit, but the overall program was. I meshed Beyond with MFW Adventures and finished with Beyond. Our personal issues lied (sp?) with really not the program but a dialogue vs narration sort of reading. We also do better with more unit study-ish science. So in what you're looking for, it’s possible my information may help you with your question.

We are doing better with Bigger because the stories are narrated. Beyond had more dialogue type stories. Perhaps that doesn't work for your family. This makes a huge difference with us. We are doing Bigger now. The program is wonderful. DD can laugh and use her toys and we have conversations over the topics, same as Beyond. However, we are much more enjoying Bigger because of this single difference. Also we both do better with Bigger Science than Beyond. Purely the way it's set up. Something different daily (as in Beyond) vs a more unit study (Bigger). Neither are better or worse, one just takes a different road so-to-speak.

So in your love for HOD, maybe it's not the program, but the road they each take that you’re looking for?

[striving2Bprov31]

Carrie,

I'm so sorry if I offended you in choosing the wrong words.

I certainly did not intend for this to be a thread to pick apart Bigger Hearts, not at all. I only said what I said about it to give the reader a backround of our experience. I thought that would give a better understanding to my question, I guess comparing or contrasting the two programs.

I totally agree with everything you said about CM reading and method. We have grown by leaps and bounds in our homeschool in the area of aquiring the taste for great books. I think the Eggleston books are great. So interesting. Again, my dc were just not "there" yet being new to homeschooling.

I think, Carrie, you are an outstanding author, and I have a great respect for you. The programs are SO WELL laid out. I love that you have a passion to help families draw closer to Christ through their homeschool. I meant no offense and, again, was not trying to focus on Bigger Hearts. I did not want to hear likes or dislikes about Bigger. I simply wanted to hear from anyone who is doing CtC with flying colors, but maybe struggled a little with Bigger Hearts like me.

Sorry, again.
God Bless,
Liz

[water2wine]

I can't answer as someone who struggled. We loved Bigger and will be using it again next year. However I will say that the two programs are different. Similar because HOD builds off the last program and there are familiarities from program to program. But there is less read aloud time for the parent, more independence for the child and different types of activities. Every program progresses in skill level so this one is two levels above Bigger. The main part that you read aloud in Bigger is really done by the student and of course the books are completely different. What you do together is different as well becasue that level is increased as well. My suggestion is to look at the samples and see about getting your hands on some of the books particularly the ones you will be reading aloud and see what you think. People have struggles for all different kind of reasons so I think looking yourself might tell you quite a bit as well as the samples. I think for us we know every HOD program will work for us because HOD is just our perfect match I never question if the next program will be a fit. But when you talk about having struggles in hsing using a program or whatever that is such a hard thing to compare outside yourself. I think the only way to know is to really see what you can of it and maybe try out the samples and see what you think. We are absolutely loving it and my kids that are not using it are dying to give it a try. Always great to have something to look forward too!

Anyway not much help but hopefully something will be of help to you.

[Carrie]

Liz,

I thought the way you phrased your experiences was very gracious and helpful! So, no worries about me being offended. I do strive on the board to directly answer questions people may have when they feel a program isn't working for them and to fully explain our reasoning behind the books we choose and the design of the programs. Otherwise, we leave people in the dark as to our thinking, which leaves their questions unanswered.

We also strive to have a goal on this board of encouraging one another and one part of that goal is to have moms ask questions in a way that we can constructively give help in answering. While we certainly realize there will be things in our guides that are not a perfect fit for every family, and we know each family will have its own favorites, we also hope to spend our time well in moderating the board by answering questions in a way that makes moms more effective in using HOD. My intent was to just rephrase the question to allow us to all jump in and be helpful with what you're seeking.

The ladies have already done a great job of answering, and I know more moms will be along to help as well. One thing that may help would be to look over the samples of the first spine in CTC "The Story of the Ancient World". Link here: http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerber/ ... face2.html

This will give you a good feel for the spines used within CTC. We also use Kemp's Greece and Kemp's Rome. They can be read here (Greece): http://www.heartofdakota.com/pdf/kemp_g ... review.pdf
(Rome): http://www.heartofdakota.com/pdf/kemp_rome_preview.pdf

You may also scroll down this link of descriptions to view more about each resource within CTC: http://www.heartofdakota.com/hearts-for ... ient-world

You may also wish to peek at the first chapter of Zoo. 3, which is the first spine used within CTC for science linked here: http://www.heartofdakota.com/pdf/apologia_zoology.pdf

If you scroll down this link, you will see more information about each book within the science part of the program. Link:
http://www.heartofdakota.com/hearts-for ... ng-zoology

On a sidenote, there is quite a jump between Bigger Hearts and CTC. In Preparing Hearts, 2 boxes in the plans daily are independent and in CTC 5 boxes are independent. There is also a pretty big difference in the level of reading material between Bigger, Preparing, and CTC. CTC intends for students to read more of the material on their own. I'm not remembering the ages of your children to know whether you may wish to consider Preparing Hearts first or not, but that is something to consider as well. Looking at the placement chart will be really helpful in that respect. Link here: http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

As you look at the chart, it's also helpful to explore whether you want to combine your children or not. As you journey on you may have more clarity on that issue and know better whether it's necessary to combine for your family or not. We usually recommend combining where possible, however when the age spread gets to be more than 3 years it gets tougher to combine well.

Blessings,
Carrie

[my3sons]

Well, let's see... I've done all of the HOD programs, and I am actually doing both CTC and BHFHG right now. One of the things I have seen make a real difference in my dc is the progression of skills over time. I'm talking about academic skills here, and also the progression of their ability to be independent, and the depth of their Biblical studies and their faith in general. So, I guess the first differences between Bigger Hearts and CTC that I've seen are CTC is academically much more rigorous, the level of independence for the child is increased, and the depth of Biblical studies (including their own quiet time along with what we're studying together) is also deeper. I would say (because of the gradual increase of rigor in all the areas I just mentioned ) that accurate placement is a big deal, so if you get a chance to check out the placement chart that would be a huge help in knowing if CTC will be right for your dd:
http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

In my early years of teaching (been at this about 15 years total now - giving my age away here! ) I taught public school, and I had not heard of CM back then. I also had not heard of the term "living books". Once I began to read about CM and research her theories, I started to realize what living books were. This took me quite awhile actually - lots of conversations with CM enthusiasts and lots of reading Ambleside, books about CM, CM"s books (not all 6 volumes yet though etc.), but I finally think I can identify a living book. I share this journey because it may not be so unlike yours. I was not sure I liked living books at first, especially the "older" ones, as you mentioned. I'd been used to books with vibrant pictures and fairly easy sentence structure, certainly with quite straight-forward plots. In fact, when I stopped teaching ps, I brought home my whole classroom library of books I'd bought - literally 1000's of titles I'd accumulated over the span of 7 years I taught, and was certain I'd use them all with my dc. Well, 8 years later, I can say I have very few of those books anymore, but have instead slowly replaced them with more living books - many of them older and lots of them what I would have once called antiquated. If it took me this long to grow in my love for living books, I am certain it takes dc awhile to make the switch as well.

So, I will say that my oldest ds was more exposed to books that were not as living earlier (mainly in his free reading time, as that is when he was using my first library of books). He always liked the HOD books we did together very much, but when it came to his free reading time, he did not choose living books. I didn't know that at the time. All I knew was I wished he picked to read some books with more depth than he was choosing. Once the HOD bookshop was up, and more and more of the books were added to it, I began replacing my old books with those, and then my ds really grew to love living books (and I finally understood what they were). My middle ds, on the other hand, has only ever had access to living books, and has always loved them, and in fact naturally prefers them to any other books. I will say that I am quite confident that both of my older ds's inherently know whether a book is living or not now. I am certain my little toddler will have it the best - as by the time he is reading we'll hopefully have an even better living book selection to choose from.

I think that your dd coming out of ps probably was not used to CM style living books, and it's no surprise she thought some of the books seemed "older". But, I just want to encourage you that if you do the books HOD has selected and continue with them over the years, dc do really begin to love these timeless books and also start to inherently choose them on their own, given time. They are books of much more worth, and dc are often impacted enough by them to remember them for even a lifetime. So, in BHFHG the books are living, in CTC the books are living - they just will be a more difficult comprehension and reading level in CTC and a different time period. Sometimes I think the first year of HOD (whatever year you come in) is a training year, and the most wonderful gift is the next year, but then the best gift after that is the next year, and then... well, you get my drift. You can come in to HOD at any time, and love it, but the real payoff is the subsequent years, because you get to celebrate your child growing and growing - in heart, soul, and mind. I hope something has helped here! And I do think you'd love CTC. We're doing it now and couldn't be happier. If you have any questions about CTC - I'll do my best to answer them. The weekly check-in is a good place to look as well. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie