heartofdakota.com

Hello friends,

I have a concern as it regards our Bigger History time. We are almost done with Unit 4. My son is THRIVING in all areas...except history. Seems that I soon as I get that little book everything falls apart. He is not getting it at all, he''ll interrupt my reading just to say " I don't get it". I am not giving up! I just need some ideas to spruce it up a bit. I'll admit, with my 3 teenage girls all doing work in various parts of the house, we usuallly struggle for a quiet reading nook, that may cause a bit of the distractions. But the vocabulary is very strong in the history reader (TFBOAH) and he is just glazing over. As I am reading it, it's so obvious that he does not care about or get what I am saying, then I get soo discouraged, history was always my favorite subject with my girls. Any advice on making this come more alive?

Blessings,
Ruth

Just thinking about this and trying to think of some things that might help. Or I guess things I might try if it were me. One thing that comes to mind first though is have you taught your child to narrate. If not then that is key really to teaching them to pay attention so they can get it. The next thing maybe is how about breaking it down into smaller bites and stopping a nit to discuss and or narrate. When we did Bigger I did sometimes stop and connect the dots for them sometimes if I felt like there were some things they might miss and also give them opportunities to do the same by stopping and asking questions like "What does this have to do with that we learned yesterday? Can you think of anything?" And then of course there is much excitement if they can figure it out. My mind is blank on it other than that at the moment except to make sure that you have full attention and have taught them how to narrate. Other than that I try not to read monotone and in fact sometimes even exaggerate to make it fun and keep them from hearing Charley Brown's teacher "wauh, wa, wuoh, wa, wauh" type thing.

Praying you find some good solutions. Glad to hear you are not giving up.

Thank you water to wine:)) I think I need to do a little reading about narrating because I get the short lessons but I don't practice narrating much. Thank you for that little extra insight, it's something real I can try and will do tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes!

Oh good! Teaching them to narrate is a huge key to it all. It does take a little time. I started with shorter segments and then just worked up to the whole reading. Praying you have a great day tomorrow and that the narration goes well. It is a skill though so don't be discouraged if it takes a little time. It is worth it!

Your children might need a visual also. With a difficult passage we'll often, draw it out with stick people very simply but just so he can keep track of the characters & the movement of the storyline.

We've been struggling a bit with the History in Bigger as well. We are coming from curricula where the history is based mainly on historical fiction (Sonlight PK, K, 1, then MFW Adv with lots of picture books) and I'm generally anti-textbook after spending 12 years of public school never once liking or caring about history. It is so important to me that my kids "get it" when it comes to God's love for His people and his favor placed on them when they are obedient (ie. history when seen through the eyes of a Biblical lens).

The passages in Bigger, although short, have older English words and are a bit less fun than the way historical fiction brings history to life with bright characters that draw the reader inward. What we have done to make this work for us is to read the history passages as written (most days) to help "learn" how to understand older verbage but read the Extended books (mostly historical fiction, aloud) to draw my kids into the historical time period with fiction (I have found that retention is better with fictional history...just my experience). We have also added The Light and the Glory which has really been an easy fit for us and my daughter says, "a whole lot easier to understand".

This is our first year with HOD and I love the plan (especially the Bible box and Math activities) but I haven't convinced myself yet that the Charlotte Mason non-twaddle historical readings are the best approach to make a child love the process of learning (which is my overall goal...combined with an understanding of God's plan for history). I'd love to be convinced that these older English style books that are used in Bigger and CTC (as I understand) have enough academic "pros" to outweigh the slightly drier nature of learning that takes place with "good literature". I would love to hear others perspectives on this style of history.

By the way, I all ready own Preparing (we did the first 6 weeks before going backwards because I felt like it was too advanced for my 3rd grader) and I did not feel this same struggle with History at all. The history readings were my dd's favorite part of the day.

Amy

dd8 Bigger (doing fine)
dd4 Little Hands (LOVING IT!)

I have a similar problem with the book used in Bigger. My dd (age 11) gets it just fine, but my ds 'glazes over' when I'm reading as someone else mentioned. I'm hoping it is just a matter of him getting used to the style, because I do think it is a good, worthwhile book. We have been working on narration this year too, and he struggles with that as well. What I have been doing is stopping after a paragraph or two and letting him narrate just that portion. He still has trouble even with that, but I am pressing on. Oh, and sometimes I reword it slightly 'on the fly' as I'm reading if I come across something I think will be confusing.

Ruth,

Here's a past thread to ponder that has some great wisdom about living books within it:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4857

I'm hustling about caring for a little one with the tummy flu today and am at his beck and call, or I would add more.

Blessings,
Carrie

I'm hoping this will be a cohesive post, as my little one is settled on the couch for a few moments.

This thread explains why we chose the Eggleston books and what why we find them to be living:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=202

On a sidenote, I went to school during the new textbook era when books began to be filled with multiple pictures but included very little history content. I can honestly say I remember nothing from my growing up years about history. We definitely did not do any biographical readings, and I never felt like the people we read about were real people. They just didn't jump off of the page in any memorable way, except for their pictures. By the time I became a public school teacher, the textbooks were even broader in their "coverage", covering everything in a sentence or two but not really looking at anything or anybody in history in depth. History became social studies and with it actual "history" was left behind.

So, when we began homeschooling, and we began coming across history books that were written years ago in a living way (when the writers were much closer to the time period in which the history was happening), we knew this was the way we wanted our children to learn history. In our search for this type of book, we found that many homeschooling companies did not use this type of book but instead used either textbooks, or read through an encyclopedia as a spine, or used historical fiction as a spine, or did a combination of these.

Each of these options has its concerns. Using textbooks was too similar of a route to that which we'd grown up doing, so our family desired to stay away from that route (as we saw little fruit from it within our own experiences). Reading from an encyclopedia like a textbook does little to aid in actual retention or understanding of history, as encyclopedias are filled with snippets of information and many sidebars. To read through an encyclopedia is also using the book in a way other than it was intended to be used, as encyclopedias are meant to be reference books. Using historical fiction as a history spine also presents some problems, as historical fiction gives the impression that all of what is being read is true and leaves the reader wondering what truly is a part of history and what is fiction.

So, at HOD we desire to use accurate living books as our spines as much as possible and then fill-in the background details with historical fiction or with other genres that give a fuller picture of the period. We directly tie the day's activities to the readings to give them even more life.

I'd encourage each of you to give Eggleston at least 9 weeks of just reading the book as written (without paraphrasing or stopping to explain as you go) before making a judgment about his worth as a writer. CM maintained that kiddos could understand much more than we give them credit for if we only would stop getting in the way of the text. If you search the board for past posts on Eggleston, you'll find many moms who grew to love his style of writing right along with their children. The habit of attention needs to be cultivated in order for kiddos to interact with readings that are more living. They definitely take a more mature listener. In the end this is what makes the reading more memorable.

Blessings,
Carrie

Thanks for the links, Carrie. I do think the Eggleston books are good books--which is why I'm pressing on. I think that the author's style just takes some getting used to, especially for the younger ones. I will say, we started with the other Eggleston book recently (Stories of Famous Americans?) and I'm finding my ds to follow it much better. Whether it's the book, or just that he's finally started listening better, I can't say . . . but I'm encouraged.

Oh--and I hope your little one feels better soon!

Carrie and all,
Thank you for the links to the Living Books discussion. These were some excellent points to ponder. My dd loves fiction and really doesn't enjoy history as much unless it's told in a narrative style. I really hope she will embrace the older style writings because I do see the value in, if nothing else, the proper grammar usage that is missing in current books like Junie B. Jones. I'm just worried that even if she becomes proficient in comprehension, she will not have any recollection of the history for this year. Perhaps my goal shouldn't be the gaining of knowledge but the process of comprehending the literature at this age.?! Interesting to my situation, my dd recently took an achievement test where she narrated stories back to the test giver and was able to narrate with such accuracy, the tester called it "amazing". But, more importantly, the sentences she was able to do so well on were the ones that were very clear to her. For example, "the waves in the northeast were as high as 22 feet at 4 pm, then 2 hours later they had calmed to a mere 18 feet off the pier, 4 hours later,...etc." She was able to do this easily but when the vocabulary was more difficult like when the story was about different animal species in Africa (words she hadn't yet been exposed to), her recollection wasn't nearly as good. I'm sure this is true with most kids, they remember what they can easily understand thereby allowing them to mentally picture the story.

Another example was today when we were discussing Powhatan, Pocahontas, and John Smith, she was really unable to comprehend the story but got the "words" or "text" right upon narration (she'd even say, "I really didn't 'get that' but I know it had something to do with John Smith"; however, when I moved over to The Light and Glory (same story written very differently), she interrupted several times saying, "wow!" I can't believe that .... John Smith left a friend with Powhatan or ...they were so lazy not to plant corn that year.

So, what I'm getting at, is the important part of using these history books the attaining of knowledge or getting accustomed to a different style of language? If it is the latter, I can see that we will be successful by the end of the year but the knowledge part is not going so well (but maybe it will be better for future guides after she's spent this year getting accustomed to it?!). Hard questions...but maybe this is me trying to embrace a Charlotte Mason education alongside my daughter after several years with an attitude of anything exciting and luring is good.

Amy

Sheila,

I fully agree with you that his style takes some getting used to, and we've found the same to be true for all living books (although some more than others). I also agree that Stories of Great Americans for Little Americans is much easier to understand. It is actually the book that came before A First Book in American History and was written for a younger audience. So, if your kiddos learn to enjoy that one first, they''ll be on their way to enjoying the rest.

Blessings,
Carrie

Amy,

We must have been typing at the same time. I enjoy the pondering that goes along with CM-style books. Your questions are good ones and ones that I pondered myself, and continue to ponder.

It sounds like your daughter is a very good memorizer, and since I was one myself, I can tell you that memorizers aren't always "big picture" comprehenders. They memorize answers and facts with almost picture perfect recall and say them back word-for word. However, they often miss the big picture and the interconnectedness that comes from putting the facts together into a cohesive story.

To illustrate this, I remember having a moment in my late teens where I finally comprehended that the shepherd boy David (from the story of David and Goliath) was the same David as King David, father of Solomon. Yet, I had practically memorized the stories about David from the Bible. It was the moment that I realized that in His word, God was giving us a picture of the entire life of David, not just an episode, and it sent me searching through the Bible to find the connections about other men and women of the Bible too.

So, this is the ultimate goal of the spines within each of our guides. To eventually allow kiddos to connect the stories about a person together so that the person comes to life as someone who lived a lifetime and had a lifetime of experiences.

Often in the early years, kiddos only remember the stories (and they are working hard to even remember those). Yet, as they grow and one layer upon another is added, the stories make more sense and fall into place as a bigger picture. In this way they will have their minds tickled when a story about that person comes up again in later years, as they will recall reading a similar story before. Eventually that person will become alive in their minds as they connect the stories together to make history.

I fully realize that reading Eggleston is not the only way to do this, but it is a memorable way that leaves many pegs in one's mind to build upon and ponder. The extra work it sometimes takes to understand Eggleston is great preparation for future higher level reading material and thinking. The pondering is what we have found to be very enjoyable. We hope you may too.

Blessings,
Carrie

Thank you so much for this forum. It is such a great place to come for encouragement!

I'm convinced to push forward with Eggleston! This curriculum certainly doesn't lack variety in learning styles (I'm including using the old with the new...literature-wise).

I have some thoughts about teaching using this learning style (using harder but better written history text). I called a family member last night who has 25-30 years of elementary and middle school public teaching experience (still teaching) including literature and history to ask her what she thought about this. The answer was to read easy books so my dd could better understand the history. I think this method is in vogue in our school systems right now.

This morning I was contemplating what a well rounded education means. Does it mean filling a child's mind with knowledge? Does it mean exposure to many different ideas? I know classical educators feel knowledge acquisition is very important in the grammar stage and understanding concepts in later years. Makes sense but that seems like a Bachelors of Science degree type education (sort of cut and dry...clear and objective...the way I like things! . A Charlotte Mason education seems more literary and creatively minded...kind of like a Bachelor's of Arts degree My husband, who has his doctorate (in science), wants our children to have a literary focus because, as he said last night, memorization is easy, comprehension and writing great papers is not. I think that's funny coming from someone who has spent so many years memorizing scientific jargon (yet, he reminds me, also writing scientific papers). Obviously, knowledge is also very important, but that can come easily to a child who loves to READ!

Thinking out loud here...Perhaps a child being stretched to understand the type of language that existed just a century ago is as important as my child understanding French vous vs. French tu. We have lost our thee and thou phrases in our proper speech and writing but I'm beginning to think that this might be fundamental in learning English just as it is when we work hard on our French grammar. By the way, you should have seen how confused my dd was last year when our french tutor was trying to explain to her the difference between proper and informal "you". Our french tutor, educated with European English (not Americanized) said thee's and thou's are still taught oversees as proper forms. This is not something present in our school system today and it wasn't when I was going through school. It's easy to say we can "get by" in life without learning good usage so what's the point in studying it. However, wouldn't it be nice if our homeschooled children spoke and wrote with an uncommon elegance?!

Carrie, it makes sense to me when you said you were an excellent memorizer but didn't necessarily put the pieces together immediately. I believe this might be part of the issue (maybe most of the issue). When literature is "spoon-fed" with simple language, it isn't necessary to digest it. Maybe this is a big reason for narration (I always have had her narrate to make sure she was getting the facts but comprehension was kind of a no-brainer given that the facts were placed on a silver platter in simple text). I'm not sure if that makes sense. What I do think is that my 95 year old grandmother who was a rural one room school teacher at 17 would approve of this text. She is still angry that I never studied latin in my school or learned how to do square roots without a calculator She also said nothing good comes easy!

Love,
Amy

Amy,

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts, as I've gone through a similar thought process myself... pondering what a well-rounded education is and how best to accomplish that. Needless to say, my philosophy of education has undergone many changes over the last 20 years as an educator.

I fully agree with what you said below, as I was inundated with that philosophy during my days as a public school teacher. We were basically told that any book will do as long as its easy-to-read and captures the kiddo's interest immediately.

I called a family member last night who has 25-30 years of elementary and middle school public teaching experience (still teaching) including literature and history to ask her what she thought about this. The answer was to read easy books so my dd could better understand the history. I think this method is in vogue in our school systems right now.

With the abyssmal failure of the public schools to teach our kiddos much of anything of worth, I found it refreshing to ponder CM-'s ideas for a different way to approach education from that which is in vogue today.

I also agree that much of what we no longer teach our children in the public/Christian schools today is still of worth and was responsible for producing our very literate founding fathers (many of whom were supposedly not very well-educated according to the standards of the time in which they lived). I deeply desire my kiddos to emulate that which is of worth, both Biblically and in a more general educational sense.

Our french tutor, educated with European English (not Americanized) said thee's and thou's are still taught oversees as proper forms. This is not something present in our school system today and it wasn't when I was going through school. It's easy to say we can "get by" in life without learning good usage so what's the point in studying it. However, wouldn't it be nice if our homeschooled children spoke and wrote with an uncommon elegance?!

The observation below is an excellent example of the difference in the habit of attention required when reading the often watered-down texts that kiddos read today, when contrasted with the thinking required when reading more challenging material instead. The work of narration is part of the thinking that a child goes through to make connections with the text.

When literature is "spoon-fed" with simple language, it isn't necessary to digest it. Maybe this is a big reason for narration (I always have had her narrate to make sure she was getting the facts but comprehension was kind of a no-brainer given that the facts were placed on a silver platter in simple text).

When narrating it is so important to have a living book from which to narrate, so the child may borrow the words, phrases, and style of the author in his/her narration. This style then eventually transfers to writing written narrations. So, if a child is continually trying to narrate from books with sub-par or very basic writing, the kiddos' narrating and writing will reflect that quality.

This makes the choice of which book to read of extreme importance and one that should not be taken lightly. So, it is with a great amount of time, pondering, testing, reading reviews, and narration-practice with our own kiddos that we choose the books ultimately used within the spines of our programs.

On top of that, it is so important that what our children read be of worth and be pleasing in God's eyes as well. Ultimately that is our highest goal for educating our kiddos.

Blessings,
Carrie