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Hi all! We're two weeks in, and it's just wonderful, wonderful. I really feel like I have enough time for everyone in my family now. I do want to ask for some input regarding English for next year. Since I just recently discovered HOD, I am coming over having already wrapped my brain around what my previous curriculum was suggesting for a long term plan for English and writing. I do feel quite sure I will go with HOD because I love all the suggestions, and am not wanting to make things more complicated than they need to be, so it's not so much that I need a whole lot of convincing, but I would just like to understand how the overall plan for HOD compares, just so I can wrap my brain around how this new plan would work.

MFW had suggested using Primary Language Lessons for 2nd and 3rd, & the next book, Intermediate Language Lessons for 4,5 & 6 with Writing Strands. Formal grammar was not brought in until 7th grade and then my understanding is you would hit that hard for two years (along with some other things). For those of you not familiar with Primary and Intermediate Language Lessons...these books cover a number of topics, rotated, such as copywork, dictation, memorization, poetry, grammar, letter writing & creative writing.

Could you help me understand the benefits & strengths of this new approach and any potential differences between these two approaches? Is it helpful for kids to get grammar? Are there creative writing assignments in Bigger/Rod and Staff? Don't feel like your answers need to be comprehensive - I'd love to hear your experiences. Thank you in advance!

Patience wrote:... Primary and Intermediate Language Lessons...these books cover a number of topics, rotated, such as copywork, dictation, memorization, poetry, grammar, letter writing & creative writing.

Could you help me understand the benefits & strengths of this new approach and any potential differences between these two approaches? Is it helpful for kids to get grammar? Are there creative writing assignments in Bigger/Rod and Staff? Don't feel like your answers need to be comprehensive - I'd love to hear your experiences. Thank you in advance!

Hi there! I am very familiar with the Primary and Intermediate Language lessons (I'm sure Carrie will post here when she takes a break from writing too ). All of the things you have mentioned (copywork, dictation, memorization, poetry, grammar, letter writing) with the exception of Creative Writing, are planned in Bigger Hearts for His Glory. (Creative writing is added in PHFHG.) I see the primary difference between the PLL/ILL and HOD's way of doing these skills as being pretty much everything in HOD's guides ties to something being learned - linked to history or Bible - with the exception of dictation. This is very Charlotte Mason. I feel like learning these skills within the framework of what we are studying has made them more meaningful and more memorable. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

That's helpful, Julie, thank you! So what I hear you saying is that Rod and Staff more like the basic, everyday lesson and then Carrie fills that out with copywork, writing, dictation in a more meaningful way that ties in with the history or bible lesson?

Patience wrote:That's helpful, Julie, thank you! So what I hear you saying is that Rod and Staff more like the basic, everyday lesson and then Carrie fills that out with copywork, writing, dictation in a more meaningful way that ties in with the history or bible lesson?

Yes - that's it exactly! I'm surprised at how many connections my dc are making in these often totally separate kind of school subjects. The crossover among all of these areas seems to strike a chord with my dc that makes them remember things so much better. What's more - it's got them looking for more connections themselves. We've really enjoyed learning in this way. I also really like that R & S is inherently Christian as well. I like that my dc are learning God is a part of everything in life - even grammar!

In Christ,
Julie

Patience,

Julie did a great job of answering your questions! I'll also repost my response to Allison that may be of help to you (from a similar thread from awhile back):

The ladies are right that Charlotte Mason did not advocate starting formal grammar instruction into age 10 or even later. She felt all grammar could be absorbed in a single year with review after that. I was definitely on board with her idea when we switched to a VERY CM education for my oldest son during his third grade year. But, even CM's own grammar book (republished by Karen Andreola as Simply Grammar) needs to be used more than once over time in order to cement the grammar concepts. Catherine Levinson, a leading CM educator, mentions using Simply Grammar two or three times to get retention from her kiddos. So, grammar is not a one-shot deal as we'd love it to be.

Also, due to the upped requirements in states with writing assessments, we found it necessary to do an earlier introduction to formal grammar than CM proposed, in order to have a common language about how to write better. For example, to point out whether kiddos are writing in complete sentences, they need to understand what a subject and predicate are and what is missing from their sentence (making it a fragment).

If we wish to have the child add more detail, it is VERY helpful for kiddos to understand what adjectives and adverbs are and how they function within a sentence. When we ask for written answers, it also helps if they can compose their sentences in a way that makes sense (with parallel usage). When asking kiddos to fix sentences that aren't grammatically correct, it helps if the kiddos know their basic parts of speech.

Also, for the mechanics and usage portion of standardized tests (Iowa Basics or SAT's) kiddos need to understand use of commas, end punctuation, and capitalization. So, even though it makes sense to delay formal grammar instruction, we are forced by the state to show progress in these areas by the way we report to them. In our state of South Dakota, we also have writing assessments that must be turned in yearly, which are scored partially based on grammar.

At HOD, we use copywork, dictation, oral narration (and later written narration), poetry, and literature in a very Charlotte Mason way. We delay formal grammar instruction until "Bigger...". However, at that point we find it easier to do a little grammar instruction each day rather than waiting for a heavy introduction to grammar later. That happens to be our philosophy.

If your heart is leading you toward a different grammar program, by all means follow it! That is the beauty of HOD. But, for the record, I will say that Rod and Staff while not flashy, does get the job done. For the time I put into teaching grammar in the past (including "Intermediate Language Lessons"), I will say that Rod and Staff sticks much better making the teaching time better spent for me!

Blessings,
Carrie

Whew! thanks Carrie for your helpful clarification. It does help me to processs this "out loud" with you all. I really like Rod and Staff's materials and have looked at their English before, but just never had the occasion to use it. I have read a lot of helpful threads regarding how you all actually go through the material with your children and I think it will be just great! My current thinking was that grammar wasn't really something I needed to think about for a number of years, so I just wanted to be "envisioned" if you will thank you thank you for your time!