HOD- C.M. and/or Classical?

[Jessi]

Is HOD true Charlotte Mason or is it more of an eclectic mix of Charlotte Mason and Classical? I know that a lot of HOD is Charlotte Mason but my pastor's wife sent me information about classical homeschooling as it is something she is interested in and agrees with a lot of what they are doing, so I went to their website to look around and it appeared that Classical homeschooling requires similar things to HOD like notebooks, narration, and storytime. If so, then I might be able to persuade my pastor's wife to look a little more into HOD if they are similar.

Just curious. Thanks!!

Oh and Carrie, while looking at the classical website I noticed that they start logic in seventh and eighth grade concerning their faith. Is this something you are planning as well in the latter guides? They use books like "Don't Leave Your Brain at the Door" and "It Couldn't Have Just Happened". Are you familiar with either of these books?

Thanks.

[funkmomma71]

They use books like "Don't Leave Your Brain at the Door" and "It Couldn't Have Just Happened". Are you familiar with either of these books?

I don't want to step on any toes but, I would be careful with the "It Couldn't Have Just Happened" book; I dusted off my copy recently and discovered that it does NOT wholeheartedly support a young earth or a special creation viewpoint. I am at work right so I can't quote any passages, but it clearly made the point that an old-earth argument and/or deistic evolution are biblically supportable! There are better books out there that clearly defend special creation and a young-earth viewpoint. I may use this book (much later), but show my children how flawed it is.

In Him,
Nancy

[Jessi]

Ah, thank you for clarifying. I didn't know that about the book. I'll have to look into it.

[krystab]

I am only using LHTH right now, so I can't say from experience if HOD is more CM or Classical. I believe HOD is more CM than Classical.
But in general CM and Classical are more alike than different. CM took many ideas from Classical, such as narration, copywork, etc. There are also several views on what exactly classical education is. Some view it in terms of the type of books used (ie. The Great Books), and others as catering to the different stages of development.
To me I feel CM is more "laid-back" than classical and is easier to execute in the home setting. We used a classical curriculum last year and we were overwhelmed with the amount of work and bored with tons of memorization. My children are all young so in the classical theory are sponges that retain facts. Fill them will the facts now, then in the next stage they start learning what those facts mean. Well, that got really boring for everyone real quick. But not all classical programs stress this memorization.
HTH,
Krysta

[Jessi]

Thank you! That was very good to hear. Those are some things I'll bring up to my pastor's wife...about the memorization being too boring and too much.

[Carrie]

Jessi,

Ah.. the CM/Classical question. This is one with a multi-faceted answer! At HOD we definitely lean more toward the CM-style than the classical. As the ladies have already pointed out CM and Classical have some definite areas of agreement and overlap (most pointedly the reading of more "classic" type books), however the main thrust of the two philosophies is different.

CM-style readings focus on fewer books read more slowly over time, in essence fewer/more quality books done more deeply. Classical enjoys using fact books (i.e Usborne, DK, and other encyclopedia like books) as reading material and also encourages reading of abridgements of classics early on. CM readings are always living, using fact books only for reference, and recommend waiting to read the classics until the unabridged versions can be attempted. Not all classics are considered "good reading" in a CM style education. Classical often focuses on the "Great Books".

CM focuses on narration as the primary method of comprehension. Classical also uses narration, but more for the purpose of learning to summarize. In CM-style narration, kiddos are to borrow words from the author to retell the story. Narrations are often lengthy and detailed and there is no "one right" answer or certain key points that "should be" in the narration. This is the way the child connects to and makes sense of the reading. Classical narration is looking for a more succinct narration with "certain" main key points. There is more of a feeling that a good narration should have these "key points" in it. This is a different form of narration from CM-style narration.

CM and Classical both use dictation, but with different methods. CM uses studied dictation (meaning kiddos study the passage first to fix in in the mind prior to having it dictated). Classical also uses dictation, but does not have kiddos study it first. It is more of a test of what the kiddos know, rather than the practice of fixing it in one's mind.

Both CM and Classical use copywork as a form of early writing practice. This is an area of agreement.

CM uses delayed formal grammar instruction and delayed formal writing instruction. Classical education focuses on early rigorous grammar instruction and also on a rigorous schedule for memorization. CM also does memorization, especially of Scripture passages and poetry, but is not nearly as rigorous as Classical.

Both CM and Classical use written narration, yet the expected outcome is different. Classical uses written narration as a tool for learning how to write a summary through narration. There is more of feeling that there are certain key points that should be included for it to be done correctly. CM uses written narration as a tool to learn writing style by borrowing the author's style and wording to convey the thrust of the reading. It is not meant as merely a stepping stone to summarizing, as classical uses written narration. In CM-style narration, the student is instead trying on various styles of writing using the author's style, until they eventually begin developing their own style of writing.

CM and typical Classical vary quite a bit on their approach to Bible study and integrating God's word throughout the school day. CM believed this was foundational to all learning. Classical devotes very little time during the day to this topic, unless you follow a modified classical approach (such as the Bluedorn's Christian Classical or Memoria's Press's Christian Classical).

Character training and formation of habits were a huge part of CM's focus. She devotes much of her 6 volume series to those topics. It is in these areas particulary that I agree with her. The formation of a child's character and his/her habits is an overlooked topic in Classical education, as the pursuit of wisdom, knowledge, and education is supreme.

CM felt poetry study, nature study, art, and music were important. She studied science through nature, art through picture study of famous paintings, music through listening to classical pieces, and poetry through daily reading of classic poems. Classical looks at these areas as an "add-on", until they are done in the upper levels along with the rigorous study of history. With a truly classical schedule there is little time left in a very rigorous school day to devote to these things.

You can see that at HOD we fall on the CM side for almost all of the things I've listed in the above post. The two areas we have not included yet, are picture study and classical music. However, we have discussed these areas on the board quite a bit, and do add them in with our own kiddos. In future guides, we will hit each of those areas at least once (preferring to do famous artists, composers, and hymn writers when they best coordinate with our history study).

Anyway, from the description above you can see some distinct difference between the two approaches. When reading it, you may hopefully be able to sort out the differences and where you fall philosopy-wise a little better.

As far as "It Couldn't Happen", we have decided against using it with our own kiddos due to the "old earth" perspective in the book. Answers in Genesis had some notes about that particular book that we agreed with when perusing it ourselves.

With the deeper "logic" stage Bible study part of your question..., we have sought deep discussions and thinking about the Bible from the beginning with our guides, so we will continue in that pattern of weighing everything against God's word with our future guides.

Blessings,
Carrie

[Kathleen]

Jessi,

I'm glad you asked this question. I'm learning lots about the different homeschooling "styles" after jumping in.

I know I love HOD...and everything I've learned about CM since finding HOD! Thanks for that thorough explanation Carrie!
Kathleen

[Jessi]

Carrie,

That was a wonderfully complete response! It was nice to see them side by side. The wondering isn't for me though, it is for my pastor's wife. I like looking up different homeschooling methods and when she showed me what she was interested in, I wanted to study up on it so I could talk about it with her....it just looked like the more I read about classical conversations the more it appeared to align (at least in part) with HOD which got me curious. I am going to sit down with my pastor's wife and show her everything HOD is about and encourage her to come to this website and post some questions...perhaps that will sway her. I am not always great with words either on here or in real life and so what I am trying to say doesn't always come out right. Maybe you all could do a better job.

I love HOD!!!

[Jessi]

"This is the crux of the issue. When Christians have agreed with the world that they can accept man’s fallible dating methods to interpret God’s Word, they have agreed with the world that the Bible can’t be trusted. They have essentially sent out the message that man, by himself, independent of revelation, can determine truth and impose this on God’s Word. Once this ‘door’ has been opened regarding Genesis, ultimately it can happen with the rest of the Bible."

I just went to Answers in Genesis and was reading up on the young earth creation viewpoint, and this part of the article really stuck out to me. I have been a young- earth creationist since I rededicated my life to Christ at 23. Before that I attended a Christian college and believed in the old-earth philosophy...but I realize now that that is because even though I said I was a Christian, I didn't take God's word as infallable authority, hence how I fell away so easily even in a Christian environment.

Once I was informed by funkmomma about the old-earth content in "It Couldn't Have just Happened" and when Carrie confirmed it, it makes me question when a program who claims to be Christian, such as this classical approach does, uses this as one of the foundational books in teaching kids about their faith....hmmmm. I love that we can have these open honest dialogues here!

Carrie, again, thank you from the bottom of my heart that you are called by God to pick books that keep the Bible as the ultimate authority in educating our children. I know that with HOD, everything we'll learn adheres to what we believe and makes it that much easier to teach our children to make the Bible their authority as well.

Blessings ALL!