Page 1 of 1

Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:59 pm
by Mom4Him
What would you do with an almost fourth grader (in the fall) who really struggles to sound words out phonetically?

She learned to read using The Reading Lesson - them moved into the Emerging Readers Set - and now has read all of the Level 2 books and is working her way through the Level 3 books with DITHOR. She's done alright with the reading in Preparing - although she's a slow reader, and when she reads out loud to me she misses quite a few words. She does enjoy reading though, and she can narrate like a champ. :D So I do think she probably gets most of what she reads.
But it doesn't seem like she knows what to do when she gets to an unfamiliar word. - She'll often say a completely different word or will make up a word that often sounds almost nothing like the actual word. If I ask her to sound it out - she doesn't really seem to get how to do that. Even some very basic phonetics rules - like the silent-final "e" making the vowel say it's long sound... and maybe even which are the vowels - don't seem to have clicked.
She does happen to be my sweet girl that also struggles with spelling (which makes sense, as these go hand-in-hand).

So, what are some options to help?
I don't want to do anything like All About Reading/All About Spelling - it just costs too much, and would take up too much time.
But, maybe there's something short and sweet we could work through during the summer to give her a better foothold?
Writing is not her favorite thing (unless done for fun) so I'm not sure a workbook approach would work either. :wink:

Thank you!
(She'll be 9 next week - tear.)

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:04 pm
by Motherjoy
Reading well, and being able to decode unfamiliar words needs to be at the top of your priority list right now. Things may only get worse, if you don't address it properly. NOt to sound all doom and gloom...Lol. :) Reading Horizons has a good online program that you can look into. We did TRL with our three middle boys, and noticed this year that the 3rd grader has some struggles as well. We're doing AAR/AAS, and I'm pretty convinced that TRL just wasn't enough instruction for him (or any non-natural reader.) Even my more natural reader can't really sound out words, and I think its because TRL just didn't give them that skill at all. Looking back, its just a weak program in that regard. I really used to love it, and my natural reader does very well, but many kids will need more than that.

http://athome.readinghorizons.com/

I looked into this, and if you aren't wanting teacher-intensive, then this looks like it would be worth it.

Other than that, you could simply practice with her, but you'll need to know the phonograms and syllable division rules yourself. I'm sure there is somewhere to look that up online, I just can't remember where I've seen it.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:59 pm
by psreit
If you don't want to use an expensive program, Phonics Pathways is an inexpensive book that may help. I am using that with my almost 12yo daughter. She has dyslexia and some of the same characteristics as your daughter. Work on reading fluency rather than spelling rules. Although Phonics Pathways does give rules, and the student does write words/sentences dictated, it is meant to help with fluency. HTH

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:25 pm
by bethelmommy
I found Explode the Code to be really helpful for my dd. We only used the first three books, but I think there are about 8 main books in addition to some half levels if you need more reinforcement. They are fairly inexpensive and can be done mostly independently.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:57 pm
by twolittlebears
I have had great results with Rod and Staff LA!! It is very well priced, like $6/book or so. Once you get those phonics and decoding mastered, then you're set! I put my 9 yo/3rd grader in Rod and Staff grade 2 after Christmas, just to back track and make sure that we've covered all phonics. His reader is a Bible storybook, it's so sweet and very HOD friendly. :D It does have handwriting in it too. Answering questions with a word from the word bank. This has actually really improved my son's writing skills, his letters are actually really pretty! It's a great program! It goes hand in hand with the R&S grammar books HOD uses, it's just the other portion of their LA.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:54 am
by MelInKansas
I had noticed something similar (though maybe less pronounced) with my oldest as we worked through the level 2 books. She was reading mostly all by sight, and when she came to an unfamiliar word she was pretty clueless as to how to try to decode it and would always look to me for help. What I realized was that when we were doing 100 Easy Lessons and Emerging Readers I would always give her the word if she struggled more than 2-3 times to read it. Reinforcing memory rather than decoding. So you need to figure out how you are helping your daughter when she doesn't know the word. I switched to always having her sound out the word, and at first we would go through phoneme by phoneme sounding them out. It was kind of agonizing at first but it paid off. Now, as another person mentioned, it does help if you know the rules. I knew the obvious ones, but was lacking in some of the lesser known ones. Now I have learned a lot of them so I can explain if it's something they don't know.

My DD (10 years old now and a 4th grader) is now MUCH better at sounding out and decoding words. For her it wasn't a learning disability but rather she just had never acquired that skill. Hopefully it's the same for yours. As others have mentioned, she may need more help, and then really you would need to invest the time in a program that would give her what she needs. The skill of being able to read well is something you need to be ready to invest that in, as it will be the foundation for learning, especially in HOD but really in any program and just in life. You can try to borrow or find it used if money is an issue.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:21 pm
by Mom4Him
Wow! I didn't expect to feel so discouraged (although appreciative) after reading everyone's replies. :(
As I was typing my original post - I did fear that it would come off worse than it actually was/is - and maybe it did.
Honestly, I think the most disheartening thing right now is that we have followed the HOD plans to a T with this sweet daughter of mine (and truly loved it!), and yet here we are.
And it is humbling to realize that I should have caught this sooner - it makes me feel a bit like a failure. I guess I just figured that as we kept moving along slow and steady - she would just get it (as it seemed her older sisters did - although now I'm realizing maybe they aren't really equipped in this area either). And, yes, I think I need to reprogram myself to not just give her the word after she's said it wrong a couple of times. :wink:

Honestly, the options that cost hundreds of dollars are just not feasible for us. Maybe that makes me come across as if I'm not willing to invest in this. I am - it's just that I feel like we've invested a lot already, and I just don't want to spend time and money on something that may or may not truly benefit my daughter. As far as time goes - with five other kiddos, I already feel like I'm neglecting the youngest ones a bit. :wink: Yet, I feel like this is something that needs to be teacher-led. I also know myself, and that if it's a program that takes too long - I fizzle out easily. (I've been doing Logic of English's Foundations with my first grade son - since he *or maybe it was me* hit a wall using The Reading Lesson. It has been great, but now with just about 10 lessons to go in book C - we are both-just-done! So, I've picked up The Reading Lesson again with him, and we're both appreciating the simplicity, as well as the fact that he's not guessing or having to try every single phonogram sound with each word. I also recently started my two youngest girls (the 3-year-old doesn't want to be left out) in The Reading Lesson, and they're loving it. But, the issues my almost nine-year-old is facing are causing this debate in my head about if that is the right choice for my littles. Ah!) :oops:

I do not know all the phonogram and syllable division rules, and sometimes they just seem confusing and like too much - with all the "rule breakers," etc.
From reading all of the advice from you awesome ladies, at this point I think I'll look into Phonics Pathways. For it's inexpensive and she's not much of a workbook lover. And this seems doable.

FYI - she's always been at the very youngest age range of the guides (she has less than 3 weeks left in Preparing). Each year I've said that if it gets to be too much we'll slow down, but each year she's risen to the challenge. However, I've decided to wait a year to put her in CTC, and put her in Beyond again with her brother - along with her own level of LA and Math, as well as our own extensions that will make it quite similar to the level in Preparing. I know this would not be advised, but after praying and thinking about it for a long time - when we thought of this plan, I can't tell you the sweet relief and joy we both felt. I always felt a bit like I was pulling her along, and she's truly done very, very well - but this year I started to see the spark in learning dim a bit, and I also know the higher level of reading (and writing) that are required in CTC. And so I think a year of growing up a bit, and having a little extra time to focus on things like reading fluency - will be really beneficial to all of us.

I welcome any more advice and encouragement. :D
Thank you for wading through all of my words and emotions. :wink:
I appreciate you ladies!

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:30 pm
by MelInKansas
I think TRL -> ER -> reading level books is a great way to learn to read. I totally understand your feeling on not wanting to spend a lot more time or money. I had thought of buying a book that explains all the phonemes and rules just for myself so I can help them better. With less aid to my 2nd DD through the whole process she is a MUCH better phonetic reader and decoder than her sister was. And this is with her being more of a memorizer than her sister ever was. She rips through memory verses so easily compared to my oldest. So I think it can really be done well, I just think I didn't do it well at first. If your daughter doesn't have any learning disabilities, eye tracking problems, or anything (which if she can read well generally she probably doesn't) then I bet you can fix it. But it may take some more focus for a little while in order to do it. Have her read to you at any opportunity (my oldest read to us for Bible time for several months) and really work on the sounding out and blending skills.

All isn't lost, and I'm sorry if my post made you think it was. I was also trying to encourage you that there are other ways than just buying a full program outright to get what you need, if you do need it.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 3:08 pm
by Nealewill
Please don't feel bad. I don't think you "missed" anything. I think your style of phonics is a teaching preference. We are all different and we all need to do what works best for us. For what it is worth, with my oldest she STRUGGLED with reading. We just did more and more practice. That is what got her reading. With my son, he has auditory processing disorder and he completely lacked the vocabulary to figure out the words (for example, if you had the word baby - he would say baby with a short a or a long a. He didn't know what a baby was anyway so either word was fine for him). Needless to say, he struggled significantly but it was just different. For him, I did end up using AAS levels 2 and 3. It was commitment for both of us but I do think for him it was what he needed. With my oldest, she figured out the phonics through practice. With my son, even with that program, there was lots of repetition causing he to do most of his reading by sight. Both kids are VERY different but both kids struggled!!!! They can both now read :-)

If I were you, you could definitely check out phonics pathways but I also might just continue having her read regularly and read out loud to you or your husband. Every kid is different and I don't think everyone needs a special program to learn to read. Even with a special program, I have found that kids can read the words they learn in the program but then it is difficult to transition into living books. And many times I have heard other parents say one day their kids just got it and took off. I do wonder if that will happen with your dd. That is realistically what happened with me and my first two kids. One day they read poorly, the next well. It was night and day different. All the sudden it just clicked :-) Don't stress :-) You are a great mom. It will come. But reading, reading, reading and reading things they like will help. Plus, phonics may not be the key to helping your child read. I know several parents who's kids just didn't understand phonics. Once they learned a word, they had it. But in general, they can't do phonics. The kids I know of that learned this way are great readers now and actually very good spellers too. They have memorized the words! Be encouraged!!!! If she was able to do Preparing and finish, I do think she is right on the verge of picking it up! I wouldn't stress at all (easy for me to say because it isn't my kids but know that I have been there too). I would just give her more time. Finally, I would provide her with lots of picture books or books that engage her. I used to try and have my kids read chapter books rather than the picture books at the library. Honestly, those books have some tough vocab in them! I have totally switched my thoughts and my kids' reading has increased alone by having them read those interesting books to me or themselves. They are always coming to find me and tell me something cool they learned. So I guess all I am saying is that if you provide interesting things for her to read, she will at least like reading (sounds like she does anyway) and it will keep her engaged giving her the desire to preserver even when it gets challenging.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 1:14 pm
by Mom4Him
Thank you ladies for your kind encouragement!
It is amazing how a day and a little extra perspective can help. :wink:
I do have her reading to me every day - with DITHOR books, Bible reading, and/or reading sections from her independent history on the days that it is scheduled. And she does seem to enjoy reading (she's loving both the Mozart and Albert Einstein books right now). I also will catch her reading on her own before bedtime - especially if it has to do with animals or is one of the Childhood for Famous Americans books. :D

I guess I just keep wavering between what is really "normal" and will come with more reading and time - and what is more of a problem that needs more focused attention. I find myself readily flopping between the two extremes. Right now I feel like she's somewhere in the middle and would benefit from just a little extra something.
Thanks for helping me talk this out!

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:29 pm
by Motherjoy
I didn't mean to make you feel discouraged. I used TRL for my three middle guys, and found the same thing. Two of them are natural readers, one has some dyslexia issues, though I hate that term. ;) anyway, I had all that written out at first, but deleted because I really didn't want to disparage TRL. Her problem is probably just a lack of practice and complete phone
If awareness. But after our experience with a struggling reader, I'm much quicker to suggest quick intervention and remediation. It makes all the difference.

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:00 am
by Carrie
Mom4Him,

As I read through the responses you've received in this thread, I wanted to pop-in and share a few things I've discovered on my journey through the past 25 years of teaching reading. I happened to spend a good chunk of my 11 years in the public school classroom in third and fourth grade, so the age of your daughter is near and dear to my heart. After coming home to teach my own four boys how to read, I got an even more personal view of the reading process! So, through the years it has been interesting to refine and rethink what I believe about teaching reading. :D I'll share my own thoughts below, in the hopes that it will take some of the pressure off of you to do everything "just right."

First of all, different kiddos respond differently to the same reading program. :D While this is obvious when teaching a large group of kiddos in the classroom, it is less obvious at home! So, I'll just start by saying that we can't expect the same results from a reading program with every child. This is because not all kiddos learn to read in the same way or at the same age. So, we can know going into a program that each of our kiddos will respond a bit differently to it - thus varying the stage of reading that they exit the program in having. :wink:

Next, it's interesting to note that not all kiddos need the same amount of "phonics" instruction in order to become fluent readers. Some seem to need more than others. Yet, at some point, learning phonics rules seems to reach its needed level for reading purposes and then switches over to learning phonics rules for the purpose of spelling correctly. At that juncture, to me, continuing on with tedious phonics rules that have many exceptions, begins to become less purposeful - making it a good time to exit phonics instruction. :D

Another thing to keep in mind is that all kiddos need some sight word recognition, so they will not purely read phonetically. Knowing a solid bank of sight words is an important part of reading, as often words cannot just be "sounded out." So, reading by sight words part of the time is not a bad thing, it is actually an essential part of reading. However, if a child is reading only by sight words (and by memorizing new words in this same manner, but cannot decode), then we have a problem! Likewise, if a child tries to use phonics rules to decode every word he/she reads, the process of reading also breaks down as not all words can be decoded! :wink:

It is also important to note that since kiddos will often exit any reading program at differing levels, there will be differing amounts of follow-up needed in order to truly get them reading fluently. :D So, when a child does not exit a phonics program as a fluent reader, does this mean that he/she is unable to decode words phonetically or hasn't had enough phonics? Often this is not the case. More typically, it just means a child needs practice in gaining fluency with readers that are less controlled in their vocabulary. Even easy-looking books, with a less controlled vocabulary, can be difficult for kiddos at first simply because they have been used to reading stories with a very controlled bank of words. Returning to easier books as your child exits his/her phonics program is actually a good idea for a child who is constantly groping for words as he/she exits the phonics program. Building fluency takes daily reading practice, plenty of cheerleading, sitting by the child and helping (and helping and helping), and guiding them by prompting with the many ways that you can figure out a word you don't know as you're reading. :D

So, what should you do when your child comes to a word he/she doesn't know? The suggestions given in the Appendix of the Drawn into the Heart of Reading Teacher's Guide is a great place to begin for this! It includes things like making sure a child begins the unknown word using the correct sound (with the correct starting letter), chunking a larger word into parts, looking for the small word inside the big word (saying the prefix, then the root word, then the suffixes -uncovering the word with your finger as they read bit by bit), using the context of the story to make a better guess at what the word might be, sounding it out, and sometimes even giving the child the word if they are stumbling over it mightily. Running your finger under the words as the child progresses is a good help too. :D

So, how do you know if your child needs another pass at the "rules" with perhaps another round of a phonics program? In my opinion, time will tell. If you give your child 3-5 months of regular reading practice daily with easier books, and help from you as a refresher as to what the various sounds are as he/she reads, and you aren't noticing ANY improvement... then you may need to consider giving another round of phonics instruction. Sometimes, the child just wasn't paying much attention during the first round of phonics, or maybe they had fluid in their ears and couldn't really hear the first round of phonics (like my own fourth little guy), or maybe they do have some learning issues that are interfering in their ability to internalize the needed phonics, or maybe it is an eye issue where they need glasses, or perhaps they have a tracking issue. But before we jump to all of these conclusions soon after finishing phonics, we need to take a deep breath and give the child time to gain confidence and fluency for awhile first. :D

Typically, one third of my third grade class in the public school each year was reading chapter books, one third was just beginning to emerge as readers, and one third was still in desperate need of phonics instruction. The school I taught at was very affluent, and yet this was a regular pattern even though all of these students had come up through second grade with the same phonics program! Two-thirds of the kiddos did just fine coming out of the same program, where one third needed some extra help on varying levels. When you look at this pattern from my classroom, it seems to play out similarly in the home situation. I share this so you will see that even professional, career teachers come up with results similar to those in the home setting when you look at a typical classroom of children. Not all kiddos exit the phonics program reading fluently. I think this is the case with your daughter. I would say that she is still emerging as a reader, which can take several years to occur. Often just sitting by a child like this as he/she reads and using some of the varying strategies for reading from the back of the Drawn into the Heart of Reading guide will help! :D Give her the run-off paper from the back of DITHR of strategies to refer to of what to do when she comes to a word she doesn't know. Have her read with it beside her, and choose a strategy to use when she comes to a word she doesn't know. This will show her there are more strategies for this than sounding the word out. :wink: We did this in my classroom with our emerging readers, and it worked well!

In closing, I will share that quiet time available to devote to steady phonics instruction also makes a difference in a child's success with reading. When we had more students in the classroom, this definitely affected our ability as teachers to help kiddos who were struggling readers. This is a reality that we have to acknowledge in both a classroom setting and a home setting. So, diligence in setting aside daily quiet time for phonics instruction with a child makes a big difference. The same is true for daily reading practice to build fluency. Once a child becomes a fluent reader, then the need for daily time spent in reading instruction lessens, but until a child hits the stage, consistency is needed. :D At our house right now, my husband often reads with our youngest son before bed. This one on one quiet time has made a huge difference in our emerging reader. We still work on his regular emerging reader schedule during the course of the school day, but this extra dose of reading is motivating to our son and has helped him show good gains in fluency.

Another thing to remember is that when kiddos begin to read chapter books (and the pictures go away) and the text becomes longer on each page, reading fluency can actually decrease for a time as the child becomes overwhelmed with the change in how the books look (even if they do know how to decode the words). There is an adjustment that comes in thinking and concentration required to read books like this! So, many kiddos at the third and fourth grade level go through a period where they are daunted by the sheer number of words on the page. This doesn't necessarily mean they need another pass at phonics. It just means that they need the readings broken up into small chunks and need plenty of help and encouragement as they transition to more words on the page. :D This is likely where your daughter is as far as reading goes. While some kiddos sail through this stage quickly, others can take a couple of years in this transition stage. It also is a stage where mispronunciation is not uncommon. This is because so many of the words are new (and long) and even the best decoders can really stumble. So, grace is needed for mispronunciations of longer words. It is also alright for kiddos to read silently, even if they aren't getting everything right! Ask yourself how many words you may actually be mispronouncing in your head as your read silently? Even as adults, we often wouldn't be able to correctly pronounce every word if asked to read aloud from a book that we consider to be difficult! :wink:

So, in looking back over all of the things that affect a child's readiness and ability to read, we can see that the actual phonics program (while important) is just one piece of the overall puzzle. I believe that Mary Pride once said that the best phonics program is the second one that you use! I had to smile when I read that because it is often true that for kiddos who cannot read well upon exiting a first phonics program, the second program (no matter what it is) seems to be the one that works. Why is this true? Is it because the program is so much better, or is it actually because the child has learned quite a bit more than we thought from the first pass through phonics and is now more able to take in and apply a second round of phonics. Or, is it because the child is just older and more mature? Or, is it because the child is finally at the stage where he/she is interested in reading? It is most likely all of the above. :wink:

So, does this mean you should rush out and buy a second phonics program? Generally not if your child is just exiting the first program. :D So for those of our board readers who are in that boat, give your child a bit of time first to see what gains can be made simply with steady reading practice of easier books to build confidence and fluency. Give your child a chance to try and apply what you've been teaching him/her first. You may save yourself years of unneeded phonics instruction. If you don't see gains by the 4-5 month mark, then re-evaluate.

From what you've shared in your posts, Mom4Him, I think that your daughter has been making gains. I just think that she is still building fluency which does take time. I also think that looking at Phonics Pathways is a good idea. Perhaps just some refreshing with some of the more common rules (along with the tracking exercises in the book) would be helpful this summer (along with steady short reading sessions from real books, leaning toward those on the easier end of the spectrum). Additionally, I would also be sure at this point that you are keeping up on eye exams and hearing tests at this stage to rule out any concerns there. But, I wouldn't be quick to rule out The Reading Lesson for your other kiddos. It is just likely that your kiddos will have varying levels of success as you exit the program. :wink:

These are just some thoughts to ponder as you journey along! Phonics is such a personal journey with so many different ways to approach it. I just share this in hopes that you will see that the phonics journey often looks different for different kiddos, so don't be surprised with the varying routes taken by different families in search of a similar end! :D

Blessings,
Carrie

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:20 am
by Nealewill
Carrie wrote:Typically, one third of my third grade class in the public school each year was reading chapter books, one third was just beginning to emerge as readers, and one third was still in desperate need of phonics instruction. The school I taught at was very affluent, and yet this was a regular pattern even though all of these students had come up through second grade with the same phonics program! Two-thirds of the kiddos did just fine coming out of the same program, where one third needed some extra help on varying levels. When you look at this pattern from my classroom, it seems to play out similarly in the home situation. I share this so you will see that even professional, career teachers come up with results similar to those in the home setting when you look at a typical classroom of children. Not all kiddos exit the phonics program reading fluently.
Thank you so much for pointing this out Carrie. I think because we homeschool, most of us know several people who's kids are great readers. It then can sometimes skew our view of what is normal. I used to feel bad for quite some time about my two oldest children and their reading abilities. Since then I found out the exact same think you noted here. It made me feel so much better to know that my kids were actually normal :-)

Re: Stuggling to sound words out phonetically

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:48 pm
by Mom4Him
Carrie,
Thank you so very much for taking the time to give such a thoughtful response!
I am truly grateful for the wisdom, experience, helpfulness, and kind encouragement you shared. I know I will be reading your response over many, many times (even in the years to come), for there is such depth to your words. Thank you for allowing God to use you to bless my heart - and ultimately my whole family. I now feel like this is doable and am encouraged in the steps that we are taking. :D
~Jessica