heartofdakota.com

One of my students is all about STEM...it is the way he is wired. Will the science in the guides prepare him for the academic rigor necessary to go into a STEM major?

I think you can definitely pull in those options. Math is always separate and the options they provide would allow for a course of reaching Calculus in high school. I haven't investigated the science courses they recommend very thoroughly since we aren't there yet, but I imagine what you would do is fast track those and then maybe get your student into a college class or AP something by the time they are a Junior or Senior in HS. Other opportunities you may need to pursue outside of HOD depending on interest (but the 4 days of plans allows some room for this). Things like Chemistry clubs or Robot clubs would be available in major metro areas, and even if you are in a smaller town I would then look into joining something at the school because they might be trying to build up numbers in those areas. Lego Robotics has resources to help you start a club for example. Go to a HS fair near you and you can also find out about what all is available. Or even try to get your STEM minded kid apprenticed to a local computer repair person, they could go work there for free and learn from the people there.

To answer your basic question: Yes. The science in HOD will build a good foundation for a student who wishes to pursue a STEM career. It is strong, rigorous, and develops critical thinking and analysis skills. But if your student wants to get into a very elite STEM college, or really just to prepare for such a career, you will have to go a bit beyond what HOD offers. This will be true for almost any career, HOD builds the foundation, but some of that time in HS needs to be spent pursuing interests and trying to decide and develop what the career path will be, that's part of what those years are all about.

I would begin researching which college he plans to attend and see what their requirements are. I know that with the University of Cincinnati (my alma mater and a nationally recognized university), the classes offered by HOD would be more than sufficient to meet their requirements for their STEM degrees. But if he plans to go to an elite college, like Harvard or Stanford, they may have different expectations. So I would start with the college and view the classes offered by HOD through that lens. You may be surprised by their requirements. In addition, one thing I like to note is that HOD typically extends the learning by how Carrie writes her guide and writes the assignments for the students so looking at the books alone may not give you the best picture of deep the learning is for each level of science. I hope that makes sense.

My sister (a high school Calculus AP teacher) and I talked about preparing for college this weekend (I teach math at a community college). Most middle of the road colleges would be happy to have students with the background HOD provides I think. Of course, we don't know Carrie's recommendations for Chemistry and the 4th year just yet, but the physical science and math are enough as written. If your child wants to go into a physical science - engineering, physics, etc - then taking physics as the 4th year would be important. But, it does not need to be calculus based. The key is being ready for Calculus 1 and Physics 1 (calculus-based) as a freshman in college. If you can start with those and do well, you will be fine at any middle of the road school. At a prestigious university, they may have specific requirements, but it is more the classes you take. Often, they don't accept, AP or other ways to skip Cal 1 and Physics 1. So, again the key is still to be prepared for those.
One thing we mentioned is how families are pushing to get their kids to take Algebra 1 in 7th grade, etc. And we just don't see the point. Taking Cal 1 in high school is MORE than enough. Now, if you follow your student's speed, and they get through Cal 1 before high school is over, that is fine. But there doesn't need to be a push to get there. Taking Cal 1 or Cal 2 in college is expected and often even suggested even if you took Cal 2 in high school.

I want to follow this. I admit, I'm thinking about switching out to Apologia. Really, I'm wanting to be talked out of that, lol. But my STEM boy is brilliant. He's already completed a Lego robotics club. I just want to make sure he's fully prepared with advanced science programs. I plan to have all his electives science/robotics oriented he loves it!

I agree that you don't NEED to take the college level or college credit classes in HS, but it's really nice to be able to do so if you can. I was able to get Junior College credit for Biology 101, and I could have had Calculus 1 and 2 but I decided to go ahead and take Calculus 2 again in college because I wasn't sure about taking Calculus 3. I think that really helped me get ahead, it definitely saved some money, and it still took me 5 years to get my Computer Science degree though there are other reasons for that

Probably the STEM programs do prefer you to take their Physics and Calculus classes as much as possible though. It definitely helps to look at what college (what kind of college) you think your student will want to pursue and try to give them whatever options you can.

I would be happy to try and talk you down Mumkins LOL

Seriously though - I always planned on using Apologia with my kids. That is, until I taught it at my kids co-op. I have nothing against it per se but didn't really care for it as much as I thought I would. I will say, for Chemistry, I did not like any of the experiments. They didn't use any chemicals at all! That was very disappointing. And I felt like they could have made it more interesting. I found it to be boring. My kids are pretty good with math and Apologia had a ton of it. But I guess I felt like when I took Chemistry in high school, I remember it being my favorite subject. After teaching it, I enjoyed it but just felt like I would like a different path for my kids. All I know is that I want some dangerous chemicals when we do science. Or at least more interesting experiments. The experiments for me were a complete turn off personally. I also taught the Biology and it was just a lot of vocabulary. When my kids get to the high school guides, I plan to just follow the plans they have laid out. I am sure they will be great courses and look forward to them.

MelInKansas wrote:I agree that you don't NEED to take the college level or college credit classes in HS, but it's really nice to be able to do so if you can. I was able to get Junior College credit for Biology 101, and I could have had Calculus 1 and 2 but I decided to go ahead and take Calculus 2 again in college because I wasn't sure about taking Calculus 3. I think that really helped me get ahead, it definitely saved some money, and it still took me 5 years to get my Computer Science degree though there are other reasons for that

Probably the STEM programs do prefer you to take their Physics and Calculus classes as much as possible though. It definitely helps to look at what college (what kind of college) you think your student will want to pursue and try to give them whatever options you can.

You can also take CLEP tests on subject that you already studied in High School if you prefer. I think the tests are around $100 or so and you can study for the year using whatever curriculum you want (as long as it is aggressive enough). Then you get a CLEP study guide book and take the test. I plan to do that with many subjects as my kids get older. And a lot of colleges - even 4 year degree colleges - accept the credits. I went to the University of Cincinnati and they currently will accept up to 30 credit hours from the CLEP tests! It will definitely help with getting all the general electives out the way, at least that is my plan for my kids if they are ready for this.

I have hesitated to answer on this thread since I am one who choose to substitute HOD science, and I don't like to bring that to this board so much since I truly respect all of the work Carrie has done. In addition, since I only used HOD science for 3 weeks, before substituting it, and since I have only looked at the samples up through high school I don't know HOD science as fully as moms who have used it. So in some ways I don't have a solid answer for your question if HOD science is enough. I thought though with my DH and I both having science backgrounds I would share a little.

After reading this thread I looked with curiosity of what our local University, that is quite known for its medical school / engineering / computer science, requires for incoming freshman for science. They don't require AP science or math, but they expect strong applicants to have AP classes in high school and in their senior years. They also mentioned that AP science or math is needed for incoming freshman to have 'open options' on campus for entering science or engineering type departments. The minimum requirements are state high school graduation requirements, but the expectations are different. The incoming average GPA, last time I looked, was around 3.9.

I don't think all Universities are going to require so much. I think many, that offer science degrees, would be fine with two lab sciences coming in. So it really depends on you and your sons goals.

HOD science does Physical in 9th grade and Biology in 10th. The only thing I would say is that if you have a serious STEM student you want HS Physical in 8th, Biology 9th, Chemistry 10th with strong amounts of Algebra, Physics 11th, and an AP science in 12th. You also want Algebra I in 8th, Algebra II in 9th, Geometry in 10th, Pre-Calculus in 11th, and Calculus in 12th. Thus, you end up with two AP classes in science and math before the end of HS and would be competitive for entering science departments and engineering departments on the campuses of your choice. It would keep your options open to whatever type of school you and your son pray fully found to be best. So I don't know how that would look with HOD for you if you backed their science up a year.

Up until 8th grade I think almost any science could be used in many ways. A year ago we did 3 weeks of Bigger and Preparing science. I thought the lab write ups were good. I thought basic science principles were being taught. I liked the scriptures in it. The main reasons I didn't continue with it were that with two parents with science degrees our children know a lot of science from growing up with us. My husband particularly has taught them quite a bit, so it made more sense for them to have something a little different. I actually thought Carrie had done a great job for elementary science!

Apologia high school was mentioned briefly without having enough chemicals in it for Chemistry, and having a lot of math in it. The amount of math I have heard of in Apologia Chemistry I actually thought of as a positive. Chemistry is a lot of math. I did a lot of inorganic, organic, and analytical chemistry in college and don't remember getting to do much with real chemicals, but I do remember a lot of math in my lab write-ups. It has been a long time though for either. Long enough ago that our opportunities were much less than perhaps what they give currently.

For a STEM student I would just recommend pulling a year ahead of HOD scope and sequence starting in 8th.

LovingJesus - I do appreciate your comments on the math in the science program. And at my high school we did get to enjoy the dangerous chemicals. I do remember the teacher lighting things on fire in the front of the classroom and seeing things change colors. But I do remember we got to mix things with hydrochloric acid and lighting things on fire our self. That is what I am talking about LOL! And because my kids are so young, I have plenty of opportunity to see the full scope and sequence of HOD and see their recommended resources prior to my kids getting to high school. That is a huge blessing that I am able to take advantage of. But I can not lie, I love what I see I never knew I was such a CM style of parent but find that my kids love the way science is done in HOD and they thrive with it. Before finding HOD, I did Botany and Flying Creatures from Apologia. My kids enjoyed it but didn't necessarily remember as much as I would have liked. What I love most about the science in is HOD is the book selection, the science experiments, the independence and finally that my kids consistently remember most of it. For me, that is key. It is funny how kids are so different LOL. I think once someone finds a rhythm of what works, they should still with it. That is the beauty of homeschooling, finding out where your kids are, what they thrive with and diving right in!

I am going ot be honest with my current plans, although I know I have a ton of time to change them. I plan on using HOD science at least for 9th and 10th grades (physical science and biology). Then, depending on my children's interests and what Carrie has planned, we may or may not do the science in HOD for 11th and 12th. If we don't, we will utilize our local community college. I don't think a homeschool science program can be as effective as a real classroom for chemistry and physics at an "AP" level because you just don't have access to the materials. I too remember many chemistry experiments with real chemicals. I took Chemistry 1 and 2 in high school, and we did use lots of real chemicals. I remember the real reactions. I then took "real" chemistry in college (for majors), and although our lab write-ups had a TON of math in them, the actual experiments were done with real chemicals. I don't think I want to even try to recreate those experiments at home, for the most part. I don't think there is any curriculum out there that doesn't cost a ton of money that would be able to recreate a true lab experience. There are "traveling" experiences out there that would work, or maybe a co-op type class, but community college seems to be the easier answer. If my kids aren't interested in science at all, then we will probably do HOD's science all four years. But, if they are leaning at least slightly to a physical science career, we will use the community college for at least two credits.

Each college is going to be different. In fact I have heard many times that your typical top notch state university doesn't consider Apologia to be strong enough for STEM students. They don't like the Christian slant and don't like that the Biology doesn't include Human Anatomy. I think my daughters Christian University that is ranked very high academically would have been fine with the HOD science as long as labs were done each year. She wasn't a STEM major so I don't know that for sure. I do know that my ds is doing the Physical Science in the WG this year and my dh who is an engineer has been helping him with the labs. He is very impressed with it and feel that the labs are of good quality and have the right mixture of calculations. He feels like they help build a strong understanding of what is being learned in the books. He definitely thinks it is rigorous enough.

It was mentioned about Physical Science being an 8th grade class. Here in Ohio Physical Science is actually now a required 9th grade class for those graduating from any Ohio public high school. Then Biology in 9th grade and then one year of an advanced Science such as Chemistry, Physics or Advanced Biology. So even STEM majors will have Physical Science in 9th grade.

One thing that's thrown me, being Canadian, is our sciences are different. Grade 9 and 10 are both just called 'science' and is a mixture of all types. Then in 11 and 12, you take chemistry, biology and physics. Each grade, each a full credit. So, all 3 plus the 2 'science' courses, means 8 science credits to cover everything. Plus we have 'college' or 'university' levels. It was 'general' and 'advanced' when I was in school. I need these advanced university level sciences showing up on my kids diplomas, and lots of them!

Mumkins wrote:I want to follow this. I admit, I'm thinking about switching out to Apologia. Really, I'm wanting to be talked out of that, lol. But my STEM boy is brilliant. He's already completed a Lego robotics club. I just want to make sure he's fully prepared with advanced science programs. I plan to have all his electives science/robotics oriented he loves it!

Mumkins,

Your dc sounds like my kiddo. He is currently in VEX Robotics, which is an international, competitive robotics team. He will begin Odyssey of the Mind this spring. It is just his thing, ya know . Science comes very naturally and easily for him. He has already completed junior high sciences (chemistry, physical science, earth science, and life science). He just turned 11 a couple of days ago and is in 5th grade according to age. I just don't know what to do for science for him. I *do* know that I need to make sure his math is up to par w/prerequisites for high school courses if we are to begin high school science in junior high...he will begin pre-algebra in May-ish.

Our state schools require 4 high school sciences with 4 labs: biology, chemistry, physics, and one advanced science. DS told me he wants to go to MIT (I didn't even know he knew anything about elite schools). I haven't looked into their requirements...honestly, after seeing their tuition rate, my computer "mysteriously" shut down and needed to be rebooted . As for the state schools, I have to complete a three page document describing each science courses, including the publisher's info. Labs completed at home do not count toward eligibility requirements .

I have also thought of beginning Apologia but it looks dull compared to HOD's selections. I love the living books that accompany HOD's science. How do I make HOD's science work for my ds?

PS. Just a note to say I am NOT pushing ds in any way. Science is his gift and as his mom, I am simply trying to help him prepare for his future endeavors.