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Carrie wrote:Rice,
I am so glad that you are sharing with us, and perhaps we can help talk through some options that may be of help to you. A few things in your post that reverberated with me are the facts that your older son really struggles with writing and that he has mainly had an oral CM foundation thus far. In looking at the progression of writing, the guide that transitions from oral to written narration (and an abundance of other written work) is Preparing Hearts. I fear that expecting your 12 year old, no matter what his age, to suddenly be at the level of independence and written work that CTC expects is setting him up for failure. If you are to the point where you are going to being down-sizing his writing (and you are not yet up to full-speed), then I think a look at Preparing Hearts for your son would be timely.

While I can see that with a 12 year old, it would be preferable to place him in CTC, in looking down the road I think this placement will always leave you downsizing and will take away the chance for your son to truly gain the level of independence we desire in the coming guides (because he will need you by his side to complete what is being asked of him each day simply due to being placed too high at the start). Instead, I would encourage you to place him in Preparing Hearts (with extensions) and to expect him to do ALL of what is required (in some form, even if it is typed) no matter how difficult it may seem. I also think he will need to do DITHR and Rod and Staff, moving toward doing more written work in both those areas by year end in preparation for CTC next year.

You were right, Carrie. After almost 3 months he's just finishing Unit 11 and still not up to speed. It takes him 3 days to do 2.

We've ordered the Preparing Extensions from you so we'll start at Unit 1 when they arrive and we'll jump back to CTC Unit 11 or 12 (wherever we stop) part way into next year when we finish Preparing.

We'll continue English 4 (we're part way through the second half) and continue doing DITHOR 4/5 workbook with a selection of 5/6/7 books, hopefully switching back to 6/7/8 workbook later (it was easier to do the 2 boys with the same pages - I couldn't remember which day I'd done with which boy so put them both int he 4/5 workbook for our second genre).

My conundrum now is what to do for Science. I'd already decided that when we get to RTR I'd need to substitute in higher level science because he'd be in Grade 8 already; now he'll be in Grade 9 for that guide! So. . . Do we do Preparing science this year, CTC science next, then move into something like General Science in RTR, hoping he'll be ready for High School Science in Rev2Rev for Grade 10? Can we still get him what he needs in that subject or should he continue CTC science while doing Preparing and find something (General Sci?) for during Grade 8 (CTC) so he can do HS Sci for Grade 9-12? (Another reason I was not planning to do RTR science is because we just did Apologia's Astronomy a couple years ago - which still gives me science questions for my 9yo but I"ll let them iron themselves out closer to next year.) I don't think he'll be looking at a career in the sciences per se (tho, maybe computer science?) but don't want to limit him, either.

Is there anything else I need to consider as we switch down to Preparing for the remainder of the year (and fall of next year)?

Carrie wrote:In considering moving your oldest son down to Preparing, you could also move your 9 year old as well, unless that child is truly doing everything in CTC right now full-speed and it suits him perfectly. Since he is only 9, I'd be leaning toward moving him down as well to avoid the older child having a younger sibling in a higher program. I would be inclined to put both kiddos in Preparing and with what you've shared about your 10 year old daughter thus far, and her struggles with language arts, I would be inclined to place her in Bigger Hearts.

My 9yo, I think, is perfectly placed. He is growing in his writing (though I still let him type one or two things per week, even he's commented that it's getting easier). He's doing everything independently that he is to do and even reads Land Animals on his own. He seems to be enjoying it all and (here I'm feeling SO thankful) he is a self-starter and gets at his work and transitions without being prompted/told. He's doing English 3 (we'd only gone through GrammarLand for formal grammar previously) and we go through 2-3 lessons each day it's assigned, orally, working to catch up to how it's scheduled in Preparing (I just realized that schedule is there, so we'll follow it loosely, on the days it's in CTC, to finish English 3 this year.) Once we're caught up and things are evened out from the transitions, I'll try to work in a written assignment occasionally, too. He's doing DITHOR 4/5 with level 4/5ish books (though we stared with easier ones in the first genre). I won't push him ahead in book level since I want enough books to last him through the years (not to mention maturity). He is quite eager to have the CTC books all to himself!

I am somewhat concerned about having my youngest (of the 3) doing the highest guide. So far, the relief of not being pushed constantly has outweighed any worry about that in their comments, but I'm sure it will come up at some point. I'm not sure how to deal with it except that they "are in HOD and using the level best suited to their skills." Thankfully, I don't anticipate any problem with the province (with whom we register/report) when I make the changes on our January report.

You were also right about our daughter. We're also moving her down to Bigger. I'm not sure how I can do all 4 guides (our DS in LHFHG is doing great!) but there were tears of relief from our DD when I suggested the move. We'll still set aside the LA portion and continue with Dianne Craft's Brain Training, at least for half the year, possibly more, depending on her development. I know there are some definite cons to go with the pros of this decision but that's the way God seemed to lead as we were getting ready in August, so we'll stick with it for now, though everything else we'll do as written.

Carrie wrote:I know this these thoughts will take some ruminating upon, however proper placement can often only be found after starting HOD and really discovering where your kiddos' strengths and weaknesses lie. Be encouraged that over time the right placement will not leave you exhausted, but instead leave you encouraged! I want that experience for you! Feel free to share your thoughts as we work through the issues to find the best fit.

Blessings,
Carrie

THANK YOU for the grace extended in that statement. This fall has been really hard. I truly thought they could do those guides, or at least grow into them, and it's been a real struggle all fall. I'm second guessing everything I had thought I knew, everything I thought I'd done and taught, all the time and effort I've put into homeschooling from the beginning. I came across some pictures of his first day of school (K) today (pancakes with peaches & whipped cream for breakfast with his sister, standing on the front steps, big smiles) and broke down. There seems to be a lot that I just have to release to Jesus: all my plans for them, all the work to help them learn, all the ideals of the "above average homeschooler". Can we make learning fun again for them (and for me)? I don't know. I sure hope so, but it's been such a struggle that I don't want to make this latest big switch and find that it's still hard. How much are they capable of vs. how much is their resistance a heart issue? Why isn't DD learning to read despite the work? How much of DS's behaviour has roots in a real issue (EFT, Dysgraphia) and how much is lack of caring/trying/wanting fun, etc.? (I know you can't answer those questions; just some of what my heart is struggling with lately.)

Really needing that time of encouragement you've mentioned, I'm looking forward to box day again in the next week or so. Maybe after Christmas break we'll be able to start in full-speed and not feel like we're pushing to get done by June. At that point I'll take a realistic look at what we can accomplish and re-set my goals for the year.

Thanks, Carrie.
Blessings,

Rice wrote: Can we make learning fun again for them (and for me)? I don't know. I sure hope so, but it's been such a struggle that I don't want to make this latest big switch and find that it's still hard. How much are they capable of vs. how much is their resistance a heart issue? Why isn't DD learning to read despite the work? How much of DS's behaviour has roots in a real issue (EFT, Dysgraphia) and how much is lack of caring/trying/wanting fun, etc.? (I know you can't answer those questions; just some of what my heart is struggling with lately.)

I have been where you are. For two years I struggled, because I didn't know why my daughter was struggling. When I did understand some of her difficulties, I still struggled with finding the best route to take with her. During that time, my daughter's attitude toward school was growing more and more negative. When I finally had a plan that was working, she still 'disliked' school. Then I was dealing more with attitude than learning issues. She still isn't crazy about 'school', but the attitude is more positive, since she has been doing work that is allowing her to progress without frustration. I didn't think we'd ever return to HOD, but since I finally realized we needed to go back to Bigger, I am confident HOD will prove to bring about the desired educational results and move my daughter toward independence. I get discouraged sometimes because she isn't reading independently at 11 years old, but I can't let that hold her back in other skills. So, I am just allowing her to progress as she is able, and thanking the Lord when I see new skills emerge. You WILL find peace through all this. I did, even after second-guessing myself for 2 years. I can usually tell if it is attitude or genuine difficulty. Don't allow drama and pray for wisdom to know the difference. God bless!

Thanks, Pam. I know that some day there will be a light at the end of the tunnel, I just don't know if this arrangement will be the light I hope for. I've definitely had no "honeymoon period" with HOD, as I was anticipating (for over a year before we started it!), but maybe it will come yet. Thankful for the Light in the mean time.

And I'm learning that far more of the problems than I thought were real problems. Bad attitude was the symptom, not the fruit.
Learning and growing along side them.

Thanks again & blessings,

How is he doing in science this year? Is it too hard for him now? I know you mentioned CTC was really bogging him down. If he can keep moving forward with the science in CTC, then I would probably try and stick it out if you can. But if it seems like the writing is too much, then I would probably drop down into Preparing science. If not, then I would continue on for the year and get as much done as you can.

Then next year (9th grade?), I would do the Exploration Education advanced set from RevtoRev. And even if you didn't finish the science from CTC or Preparing, I would probably just stop where ever you end up and not worry about finishing it. That is just me though. If you do Exploration Education, this is all you would need to do for the year. I don't know how much writing is in the advanced set but I don't think every day is a terrible amount. Maybe he could type some of the items up. For 10th, I would do either the science from MTMM adding in the Chemistry 101 DVDs or I would do the PACE Biology with the DVDs. Again, I don't know how much writing there is. And then I would see what sciences come out from the future 2 guides and maybe do 1 or both of those. It sound like he has plenty of understanding but the writing is too much.

And this year I would focus on typing. I don't remember if you stated whether or not he is good at typing or not. But if he isn't, I would make that a priority this year. Just my 2 cents.

Good points, Daneale. Thanks for your input. Using 2 guides (CTC for science) will add some complexity for him (switching books, sharing books with his brother) but is probably for the best in the long run if he can manage it.

Looking forward to hearing from Julie/Carrie to see if they agree.

Blessings,

I am feeling such a sense of relief reading through this thread. I think you are all going to find these changes to be good. It truly does just take time to figure out what will work best sometimes. It is worth the pondering! I applaud you for the heart and soul you are putting into these decisions for your dc!!! So, for science, how is CTC going? When you really step back and think through it, is ds able to do it independently successfully? Or, do you find you need to help with quite a bit of it? I think the sharing of the books can be figured out if both end up doing CTC science, but when teaching multiple guides, it is crucial that you as the teacher aren't constantly having to step in and modify things that are meant to be independent. If he is doing it successfully independently, I'd consider getting 1 extra CTC guide, and having the science books in a plastic tote for the two to share. If they don't have to share the guide, they can each easily follow the plans. Or, your older ds can do his science first thing in the morning, before the younger child starts the school day, and have it completed by the time the younger child begins (or something similar). But, if CTC science is not being done successfully independently now, I'd move him to PHFHG science now, and re-evaluate it at the end of the year. You can make a switch when high school comes, until then, you have a lot of wiggle room in what ds does. What are your thoughts though?

In Christ,
Julie

Thanks, Julie!

I didn't see this till yesterday (duh! Didn't subscribe to my own thread!) and then had to think about what to do before responding.

After talking with DH and with DS about CTC science we're going to move forward with that. I think he's enjoying it. We can always change if it doesn't work but it would be nice not to lose that, too, and he thinks they (he and his brother) can make it work, sharing for that subject (and maybe even working together on experiments).

Well, we'll jump in tomorrow, even though not all of the books have arrived (thankful for the first week available on the website!). We'll see how 1/2 to 2/3 of a day goes. At least we'll get our feet wet before attempting a unit next week.

Thanks so much for your support!
Blessings,

Rice wrote:...and he thinks they (he and his brother) can make it work, sharing for that subject (and maybe even working together on experiments). ...

I like this thought - sounds very fun to me!! ! Hoping you had a good day today - though first days aren't often my favorite or best - usually I'm loving it about a month or 2 in! Praying for good days ahead!!!

In Christ,
Julie

Yeah, it wasn't the best day, but we got our feet wet. Still some EFD issues, despite the adjusted workload/expectations. Now we've got most of our books to try to get more done on Monday. Still waiting for a few Bigger books and the Preparing Extension books to come across the border (they're @ Canada Customs over the weekend).

Blessings,

For the first time, all four children got close to, if not all of, an HOD day done before lunch today! Yay!

I can see it won't happen every day and there are still lots of challenges, but it IS possible!

We're off tomorrow (DH and I get to go Christmas shopping to the big city tomorrow - all alone!) but I'm actually looking forward to trying again on Thursday.

Thanks, everyone, especially Carrie and Julie, for your advice, grace and patience. Hoping and praying that this will be the set-up that will see us through the rest of the school year.

Blessings,

Wow, done before lunch! That is awesome! That has never happened here (nor will it I think - we start school around 8:30 or 9:00 and my kids just don't last LOL). They need lots of breaks!

That's how we started "way back when" and it's really going to hurt when I actually have to do scheduled teaching in the p.m. We start at 8 (well, some of us, lol) and I plan to be done by 12:30 at the latest, but this is the first time it has been anywhere close, this year. My CTC guy still had 2 subjects left but one was playing a history project game (so he took it to his grandparents for tomorrow) and one was painting, which isn't portable - and usually an afternoon activity, anyway. And DD in Bigger is doing more independently than scheduled in the guide (mostly her choice but pretty much essential for me time-wise). I can see it won't always work, especially on Day 4s when they all need my help with written narrations, etc., but I'll just worry about today for now.

I know once I added in Preparing my hope of always (or even most of the time) having school done by lunch was gone. It doesn't happen around here either. In order to get most of them done around the same time (except LHFHG which is so quick it is done really early) I don't even sit down to read to my Bigger girl until after lunch most days.

The lunch break refreshes us and usually we only have 1-1.5 hours to finish after lunch. On days when we can actually get it all done before lunch we'll run an errand or go somewhere after lunch (park, walk, etc). I wish we could do that more often!

But if you can start early and hit it pretty hard without too many long breaks I know it CAN be done. If that's what you need to do to keep the house running smoothly otherwise, it's a great goal. My SIL who has schooled several all the way through high school is always done with HER teaching part by noon. I think the older kids do have independent work and maybe she also does some grading in the afternoon, but for most purposes school is done by noon.

Rice,

I apologize for not responding in a more timely fashion! I just want to begin by encouraging you that for many families sifiting and sorting to find the right HOD placement can take awhile at first. This is because as teachers we've often never truly been asked to take a good hard look at where each child in our homeschool is really functioning in every skill area! When we do start looking at every area (and every child), this process takes observation and pondering and more observation!

Then, there are the family dynamics to weigh along with the ever-elusive concept of how much time one really can devote to teaching each day. When you add it all up, it is a trial and error process that finally leads to the right fit. But, be encouraged that this process is worthwhile, and even though you may be feeling like you wasted the beginning months of the school-year, in reality that was time very well-spent in fine-tuning each child's needed placement and in really seeing each child as an individual and finding what is needed for him/her.

So, as I'm going back through this, I can see where you may still be weary in running the guides that you have going (LHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, and CTC). We honestly never intend for families to run 3 HOD guides all in a row simply due to the teacher time needed for the guides and because kiddos who are close enough in skills to be that close in guides can often be combined.

With this in mind, my inclination would be to move your child in CTC down with your child in Preparing to make them a pair as they travel through the guides. The main reasons for this is that your CTC child is on the youngest age range of CTC and has not done Preparing, so this would not be a big backward step. In reality, it may actually be of benefit to your child for years to come. There are many benefits that are derived from a trip through Preparing prior to CTC! These facts when combined with the reality that your CTC child's older sibling is now in Preparing would lead me to make the switch sooner, rather than later, to avoid sibling comparison in the coming years. I think this would also benefit you in allowing you to be better balanced in where your time goes for years to come! I know this will take some pondering, but I do feel it is worth revisiting as I really desire a solid placement and forward-looking plan that your family can grow into joyfully as you journey.

In looking at the potential guide sequence for your 12 year old, as far as your science questions go, it could potentially look like this:
12 year old Preparing (Grade 7) Either continue CTC science or downsize to Preparing Science.
13 year old CTC (Grade 8 ) Either do CTC's Life Science or do RTR's Earth Science or Rev2Rev's Physical Science
14 year old RTR (Grade 9) Either do Rev2Rev's Physical science or do WG IPC science.
15 year old Rev2Rev (Grade 10) Either do Rev2Rev's Physical Science or WG Guide's IPC or do WH Guide's Biology.
16 year old MTMM (Grade 11) Either beef-up the chemistry or do the Chemistry scheduled in the first American High School guide.
17 year old WG (Grade 12) IPC Science with Lab as in guide or WH Guide's Biology, or last high school guide's science

*Keep in mind your student will want a minimum of either Rev2Rev's Physical Science or WG Integrated Physics and Chemistry, along with Biology, and Chemistry by graduation from high school. Your student can take both Physical Science and IPC in high school for credit, however one will most likely count as an elective as they are considered similar sciences.

If you do move your child currently in CTC down to Preparing, then that child would do the sciences as written in each guide (which would be good as it would set apart your older child from the younger in this one area).

As you can see, you have many paths we can take to gain the needed credit for science within the HOD guides. You don't have to have it all planned now, but we can narrow the field as you go through the years to be sure that your son is getting what he needs for all areas!

Blessings,
Carrie

Thank you for the personal response, Carrie.

We've had 2 weeks now with the new arrangement and overall, I think it is going to work. I'm not exactly sure how to arrange when I work with each one yet, but it is going much smoother than the fall.

My 10yoDD in Bigger is now much happier. She is doing more independently than the guide suggests, which is good for both of us, I think. I do have to consciously go back and make sure that she narrates and answers the questions orally from each box but she is asking for more independence (than suggested) and is getting her work done in a timely manner, without it feeling like I'm forcing her (various theatrics, repeated instructions, etc.). I think this will be a good fit. The biggest struggle is that I don't want to have 5 day weeks for her and 4 day weeks for her brothers. I think I will work a schedule (over Christmas, I hope) where she does two days of some subjects on specific days and slightly longer readings for story time to get things down to 4 days so they can all be together. I know not to drop the same day in any subject each week as that will miss the same skill all the time. (I know it's likely "better" to go at their own pace but if she handles the work load it will be FAR better for me, not having to remember where each child is individually - she and my Preparing son will stay on the same weeks & son in CTC is very good at monitoring where he is at.)

Our 12yo now in Preparing is doing better with this work load. He still did not finish Unit 2 in 4 days but we're working on the reasons (partly new level, partly distractions which we'll work on elimination, partly Executive Functioning complications) and after 2 units I think he'll yet be able to (with occasional catch-up days). He's staying with CTC science (for now, lol) and I think will enjoy it much more than the Preparing science (though I've only been through the first 10 weeks of that, myself). He's enjoying the history and extensions (ice age). The LA (poetry, specifically - he's continuing with R&S 4 and dictation level 3) is at a perfect level for him - stretching what he "likes" to do while not too difficult. We'll still struggle with his EF problems (I'm not sure how well he's using his time on his own but he CAN NOT work in the main area with all the distractions either) so he'll have to learn to work more efficiently. With the work load more manageable he's more likely to be willing to work on that - it doesn't always seem impossible any more.

As for my CTC 9yo, I really don't want to move him. He is doing really well with the work, becoming even more independent and choosing to write even more in the last 2 weeks of independence and not having to wait on the guide (getting it from his brother for each subject). He's the one who is probably placed the best! There isn't one subject where I would say it's above his head or that he struggles. He reads everything (except story time, Genesis and Geography) independently and answers the questions and narrates with detail.

I also think that putting him in the same guide as the 12 yo would be a return to further conflict in the school day. It works well for each of them to have their own books and guide. I think Preparing would be easy enough for my 9yo that he'd be done WAY earlier in the day than my 12yo, further highlighting their differences in ability. At this point I can say to them that my 12 yo doing Extensions makes Preparing a higher level but if my 9yo was in Preparing I'd be tempted to give him the Ext., too. (As it is, I will give him access to some of the CTC Ext. to read as time and interest permit, but I won't schedule them.)

It's very much like the 9yo is in advanced placement while the two older ones are on IEPs. I know that it could cause some hard feelings if we are not careful to stress that they are each doing things at their own level (which means I expect better work out of my 12yo, ideally, than I do of my 9yo, no matter which books they are using that year). However, as I mentioned above, I think that having them in the same year will highlight their differences and especially the 12yo's weaknesses. If I were ever to combine two, I think that the older 2 might be the best fit, (they have been together before) but I'm not sure that will ever work, with the gap in skills in reading. (It's really too bad she couldn't have stayed in Preparing!)

I will continue to ponder your words and evaluate as we start again after Christmas with a new (4-day) schedule possibly for DD, a new family schedule (after the first couple weeks under our belt I have an idea of what might work for when each should work with me) and new vigor after our break! I will remember your words about not intending 3 back-to-back guides at the same time and, if not make another change, at least grant us all some grace (maybe, especially myself!) as we try to fit everything in.

Hmmm. Maybe I should consider letting them all do 5-day units and scrap the idea of trying to finish a guide in a calendar year! That would eliminate doubling up subjects for DD (and trying to track what should be done each day; less head ache/hassle), give 12yo DS some extra grace as we work through his EF issues and learn what accommodations work best for him and give 9yo DS some growing room age-wise as he will take longer than a school year to finish CTC. When each one is ready they will finish their work with time to spare and can move faster instead of us always feeling we don't get done on time. Since we're not doing Singapore, they will still get math every day, no matter how stretched out the other subjects are and with multiple LA components that, too, will be done every day still. . .

Well, whatever I decide in the next couple weeks, I certainly won't think any more on science for now - there are certainly lots of options that will work themselves out as we get there.

Thanks so much again, Carrie!
Blessings,