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Oy, not really a question here but just need to commiserate with those who will understand. Just started HOD this year with 12yo ("allergic to pencil", possible attention problems and avoider of work in any form, not just school) in CTC with 9yo brother (advance reader and self-paced learner) with middle 10yo sister who has had difficulties learning to read (approx 3 years behind grade level so doing Dianne Craft work this year in place of LA after assessment showed no obvious learning disabilities/delays but some complications with eyes - newly in glasses- and ears - needed tubes this summer for ringing/pain) in Preparing and 6yo DS in LHFHG.

Juggling ages vs. reading levels vs. organizational/behavioural abilities on top of harvest on the farm and adjusting to HOD for the first time has me worn out and often frustrated.

How do you expect the best from your children while not expecting them to be something/someone that they are not?

I know part of it is an attitude/obedience/pre-teen issue but some of our oldest's difficulties with transitions, distractability (sp?), and even being able to see what needs to be done (look at the guide-type checklist for what is highlighted for today - since we're not going full speed yet it isn't everything every day - see what has yet to be done, pick a subject to work on, find it and read it in the guide, find the corresponding resource and move on to work on it) just doesn't seem to be there. With 6 other kids all needing my time and direction I NEED him to be able to do this. Consistently. But he can't. And I can't stop what I'm doing with the others every time he finishes part of a subject to redirect him to the next part, so he ends up with unfinished work at the end of our school time each day. It's wearing us both out.
. . .

Okay, so writing this out has helped me to see that my oldest may be dealing with dysgraphia. I've heard the word used before but I just (in the last 10 minutes) looked into it more fully and it seems to fit him to a T. We'll try for a week asking him to do just one assignment per day in cursive and everything else by typing (still hard for him but doesn't require a pencil ) or dictating to me. I'm hoping that not only will it help improve his overall outlook towards school (a bit) but may help alleviate transition difficulties if some of his inability to transition is due to avoidance of the next writing assignment.

We've always used CM so he's had a very heavily oral workload and I think that CTC's written expectations are hitting him hard. My difficulty will be deciphering how much is "don't want to" and how much is "can't".

Well, this isn't where I thought this post would go when I started it. . . but maybe someone will have some words of advice or some encouragement for this tired Mom?
Off to bed for me. . .

My oldest too is allergic to the pencil, or at least balks and starts giving me attitude whenever the assignment involves writing. I don't suspect any type of learning issues with her beyond just not liking it but I have struggled with how to work through this attitude with her. She is still in Preparing and this is a known with her so I am pretty much on hand for all of her writing activities, with the possible exception of DITHOR. I start her, encourage her, and look over it when she is finished.

This might be unrealistic for you, I don't know. The thing is, I have always heard when a child is pretty compliant about school and seems to do well with it except in one area, that indicates a struggle, even if they can't really explain it, and should be addressed. I totally agree with you that he needs to be able to do his work independently and should be learning to grow in that skill throughout this time. It will not get easier as you go on if he does not grow in this. What I have seen recommended is that if this is your struggle with a child who should be able to do it, you dial back school and other expectations until this gets worked out. You really hit it hard in terms of teaching the child to manage their own time and work independently. Set a schedule, use timers, be dedicated to being with that child while that child is developing good work habits rather than bad. I check in with my DD during her independent work time pretty regularly, I just have breaks set with the other kids so I can do that. And if she is having issues with staying on task, getting work done, etc (and it is not related to her hitting some snag that is understandable) then certain privileges that she usually enjoys after school is done get taken away. For us that is a short time of video games and free reading time. She may get extra chores to do that afternoon or evening. Then on the positive side praise, praise, praise when they are doing well and when you do see good effort being put in. Talk through how it is to work through something hard, and get it done. It's much better to just have it done with rather than keep pouting and putting it off. Definitely adapt the expectations and let him type if that will really help him and he needs it. But he should be doing his best with a good attitude too and that should be required.

Since you say this is a big adjustment from what you were using before, I would also say it's fine to gradually increase the writing workload for him. For example, due to the writing issues, we do MOST of R&S orally. I rarely have her write and when I do it's on the whiteboard, where neatness is less of an issue (and they love the whiteboard). Sometimes for her poetry writing I will write down what she dictates for the preparation activity part of it and then have her write the poem/paragraph that results from it. You could pick a couple of things to do with him, and then gradually hand those over to him as his writing improves.

Just my 2 cents. I hope you are able to work it out so it gets better. Blessings!

Rice,

I am so glad that you are sharing with us, and perhaps we can help talk through some options that may be of help to you. A few things in your post that reverberated with me are the facts that your older son really struggles with writing and that he has mainly had an oral CM foundation thus far. In looking at the progression of writing, the guide that transitions from oral to written narration (and an abundance of other written work) is Preparing Hearts. I fear that expecting your 12 year old, no matter what his age, to suddenly be at the level of independence and written work that CTC expects is setting him up for failure. If you are to the point where you are going to being down-sizing his writing (and you are not yet up to full-speed), then I think a look at Preparing Hearts for your son would be timely.

While I can see that with a 12 year old, it would be preferable to place him in CTC, in looking down the road I think this placement will always leave you downsizing and will take away the chance for your son to truly gain the level of independence we desire in the coming guides (because he will need you by his side to complete what is being asked of him each day simply due to being placed too high at the start). Instead, I would encourage you to place him in Preparing Hearts (with extensions) and to expect him to do ALL of what is required (in some form, even if it is typed) no matter how difficult it may seem. I also think he will need to do DITHR and Rod and Staff, moving toward doing more written work in both those areas by year end in preparation for CTC next year.

In considering moving your oldest son down to Preparing, you could also move your 9 year old as well, unless that child is truly doing everything in CTC right now full-speed and it suits him perfectly. Since he is only 9, I'd be leaning toward moving him down as well to avoid the older child having a younger sibling in a higher program. I would be inclined to put both kiddos in Preparing and with what you've shared about your 10 year old daughter thus far, and her struggles with language arts, I would be inclined to place her in Bigger Hearts.

While doing both Bigger Hearts and Preparing Hearts would be busy, it would not be any more busy than what you are doing now (as you are basically having to teach and guide through both Preparing and CTC anyway). This would give you a year of training your oldest and second sons and a year of hard work with your daughter in many areas while allowing her a year to grow in her language arts too (before heading into the greater independence and written work in Preparing). Correct placement would also help you know that you can expect them to do everything in the guide, making the subjects non-negotiable, requiring less thinking to weigh if your kiddos really can do what is being asked of them.

I think Lynn and I must have been typing at the same time and in her post (which follows mine), she gives some great advice about dysgraphia which you can utilize no matter which program you use. With your son being new to much writing though, it is possible that he just hasn't had much practice in this area. My oldest son was allergic to a pencil too, and he really grew into a writer through the years by the time he graduated from high school. So, sometimes it is just that the child hasn't had much practice or guidance in the area of writing and that it is frustrating them. My third son is a lefty, who has to be a righty, due to an injury to his fingers years ago. He is not a writing lover anyway, and it is a challenge to him. Yet, he is finally coming along as we are in RTR. I try not to compare him to my other boys and just remember that each child has his own strengths and weaknesses. Writing will never come easily to him, yet it is coming! Many kiddos who are challenged in writing sound like they have dysgraphia. Some do, yet many do not.

Another consideration is that If your son has never had much beyond reading on his own for independent work, then independence can take time to gain. It is also important that a child is trained and able to do what we are asking him to do independently in the guide. This may mean that he needs the building blocks of the lessons in Preparing Hearts to allow him to be confident of what we asking him to do independently in CTC.

I know this these thoughts will take some ruminating upon, however proper placement can often only be found after starting HOD and really discovering where your kiddos' strengths and weaknesses lie. Be encouraged that over time the right placement will not leave you exhausted, but instead leave you encouraged! I want that experience for you! Feel free to share your thoughts as we work through the issues to find the best fit.

Blessings,
Carrie

If you believe he is dysgraphic then I would definitely limit the amount of writing. With my ds who has dysgraphia I have him type almost everything. In CTC he did dictate to me certain things. He did the copy work, but he even types dictation.

It also sounds like he may struggle with executive functioning disorder. I have a dear friend who has a ds with this. It can go along with ADHD or just with other learning disorders. It is extremely difficult for him to manage his time or plan a way to accomplish a task and then follow through with that plan. He is using HOD and just finished CTC. I know she does make a typed simple checklist for him so he can go straight down it and check things off. You said you have him pick what subject to do next. You might try setting up an order of subjects for him. You might have to play around with what works best. She has found the order of subjects can really make a difference in how long the day goes. Once you find an order that works have him do that same order every day so it becomes very routine. Even my ds likes to do his subjects in the same order every day. He has learned to alternate subjects that require a lot of reading with those that require writing.

As for how to expect the best from them without expecting them to be someone their not-that is a very tough question and I can tell you one I struggle with daily. I have to remind myself that I am looking for his best effort, not perfection. I also try and set small attainable goals. Now that he is older I discus those with him. When he reaches them we both feel like he is has achieved success.

One thing I have recently (after several years of frustration ) discovered is the use of a timer as a source of encouragement for my reluctant and/or slow workers. I found on these boards several links with the approximate times each box of the CTC and WG guides should take and, as I write a simple daily agenda, I assign an appropriate time. From there, the child must set a timer as they start each assignment and there is to be no talking or interruption until the job is finished or the timer goes off. Any remaining work is to be finished during what would be free time, later. We are adjusting to the idea of *gasp* "homework", but the day is proceeding much more smoothly. This also frees me up from constant refereeing so I have more time to do whiteboard work with a ds.
I appreciate all the wisdom I have found here and hope this may be helpful as well.

We used Preparing for my dd when we first started HOD. She was 11, turning 12, and I was worried it was too young for her. I put her there for good reason. Writing! She needed this guide to help her grow. It was hard at first, she hated writing, but now she is in RTR (was scared about the writing also) and doing well. She still isn't a fan of writing, but she is doing a great job. Some one told me, it may have been on here, that you don't want everything hard for them or it will not go well. So Preparing was such a great fit for her areas of struggle, and then she had some easier areas that help lighten her load. I don't think she could have handled CTC very well if that is where we started. We just finished CTC (she is 13) and she did well, room for improvement sure, but this seems like her year for growth, I am seeing growth already. She really loves HOD, even the stuff she doesn't want to do.

She is enjoying seeing her brother starting Preparing, and all she did. We make end of year notebooks with all their work, and she was pulling out her writing I just love that!

I had a rough day with my ds in preparing. We just started so I know it will take a couple of weeks to get into the swing of things. He doesn't like to write either and the last 2 days (first unit ) we have had tears over it. Praise the Lord for patience. It is hard to know when to push and when to not push. I knew this was going to be a struggle, so we stretched out Bigger to help him work on writing more. I started giving him the guide a bit to show him how to read the box and we would work on it together, then slowly kept getting him to write more or type, but he doesn't know all his finger positions yet.

So today we were getting ready for the poetry writing, he fell a part. But by Gods grace we got through it. Then he was so excited to see his finished project. Now we have some things to work on, but the end result was a smiling boy. So now I just need to pray about the next writing assignment. Written Narration. He can do this with some help. That is why they have to grow into the guide. Bigger was taking us an hour and half to do, so we stop the last couple of units to move into Preparing. When he was wondering around trying to find something to do, I knew he was ready. Now to keep encouraging him.

I hope this helps you to figure out whats best. My advice is to pray for Gods wisdom, He is the one who knows what they need.
blessings,
Stacey

Thank you, ladies, for your comments so far. Today was a much better day for him in his attitude and his willingness to do what was assigned. Telling him he'd only have to write one subject (I left a note for him on his alarm clock) did change his attitude toward school. Unfortunately he still had 3 subjects unfinished (9yo had 1) besides painting for poetry left for the afternoon. He had at least a 1/2 hour when I gave him specific work to do and none was done. (Though I admit it was a distracting morning with DH coming through, special mail delivered and smaller siblings getting hurt.) However, there were no melt-downs, yelling or subjects left that I have to help him with! Yay!

In fact, one subject that I expected to be met with balking and complaints went fairly well today (even if it does take longer, scribing for both boys). WWTB had the first actual written assignment in Unit 1 Day 8 and this is my 12yo's descriptive paragraph which he dictated to me (we used a LEGO custom-painted mini-figure that he painted):

There once was a strange elfin warrior from the land of Ablog, who isn't the type of warrior you'd make him out to be by his looks. He was a bit skinny but not so skinny that he didn't have the looks of a warrior. In place of a helmet he wore a large hat that dropped off to one side and covered what would have been the top half of his right ear which he had lost as a young boy and would tell no one of how it had happened. He wielded a great, gleaming, sword. He also carried a large shield that, despite its looks, was quite light and wore a belt that was too big for his waist so the end hung down to his knees. Despite his mature facial expression he usually managed to get into trouble and was disliked by most of the knights of the land because, for some reason, the princess favoured him above the others.

Writing (or even typing) that himself he would have given no where near that kind of paragraph. (Like maybe 3 short sentences.) I realize there's a bit more narrative in there than an actual descriptive paragraph maybe should have but that's probably my guidance more than his discretion (I didn't look at the overall curriculum with "description of a character" to come later )

Lynn, I had just thought of typing dictation this morning - we'll try that tomorrow (we didn't do that today).
Would you consider passing on my email address to your friend and asking her to contact me? (If so, I'll message you privately.) I looked at some Executive Functioning checklists and he has every single one of this one (except for walking & talking on the phone - he's not tried that, lol):
Is this your child?
Keeps a messy room and a disorganized desk
Has difficulty following sequential instructions
Has trouble sitting still when others don’t?
Needs to be nagged repeatedly to get ready to catch the bus?
Fails to complete assignments unless you’re standing over him?
Forgets to turn in homework even when it’s completed?
Loses things regularly, from jackets to permission slips?
Has a meltdown when it’s time to clean her room?
Has difficulty planning and managing time?
Fails to control his impulse to lash out when frustrated?
Forgets to pay attention to where she’s going when talking on her phone?
Engages in risk-taking or thrill-seeking behaviors

This leaves me even more overwhelmed. More to deal with, teach and modify. It's not like any of this is new, but having a term to validate that there's actually a bunch of symptoms here that fit together into something "diagnosable" is both reassuring and overwhelming at the same time.

Carrie, I really appreciate your comments and will certainly consider whether to move down or not. I really don't want to, though. One reason is that I will already have to change enough to make things High School worthy for him (LA, Science, etc. not to mention Canadian history, which I'll leave for another year ). Another is that he is definitely ready for the other content of CTC (topics, reading level, etc.). He is loving the Extensions (I allow him to type those written narrations and he's started with just one paragraph with the ideal in mind for him to be giving 2 by Christmas or so and definitely 3-4 by the end of the year). I think, from what I've seen with my DD doing Preparing that he would find it too simplistic (although he wouldn't mind the drawing that she is balking at, lol). (He's already done AO Year 5 - to give you some background of the lit he's already dealt with.)

You said, "With your son being new to much writing though, it is possible that he just hasn't had much practice in this area." While this is true to some extent, looking up dysgraphia last night he has all the signs (capitals in the middle of words; incorrect grip - too tight, which we've worked on before; poor spacing; inconsistent spelling; fatigue when writing, etc.). I think this means that he would have trouble with the writing even in Bigger! I'm thinking (though I can still probably be persuaded otherwise) that allowing modifications (typing, scribing, voice to text) and teaching editing skills while keeping the literature, cognitive and content levels at closer to age-appropriate levels would probably be best. (We're also trying to incorporate some of Dianne Craft's Brain Training outside of school hours to help with fluency in writing this year.)

As for the executive functioning, I guess for now I'll continue to make him checklists (he's left-brained so visual spacial, ie having his checklist set up in the same visual format as the guide, seems to be best for now - we tried a linear checklist similar to those we used last year in Unit 1 and that failed) and teach him processes for subject transitions (hopefully gently reminding him to go back to his checklist and the guide for direction instead of to me) while I continue to research if there's anything else that will help him (and consider testing so I know I'm not a vicarious hypochondriac! ).

So far we're on track to finish a 4-day Unit in 5 (or possibly 5 1/4) school days this week, which is slowly an improvement from last week's 2 days in 3. I think that we can get to full speed with accommodations, even if that ends up meaning 1 unit per 5-day week for us, since I'm spread so thin.

And Jennymommy, I like that idea. It sounds like the timer idea might take more monitoring unless they want to use it (voluntarily set their work aside for later when the timer goes off). We do try to keep to those general time guidelines during our day but it mostly only works for when I'm with them. My self-paced learners would work well with it while my oldest would find the pressure of a timer defeating (I'm NEVER done when it goes off). I may try to implement a version of it though. . . thanks for the food for thought!

Thanks for your input, too, Stacey. It's good to know I'm not the only one with these things to ponder.

Does all this make sense? This is the first day with a glimmer of hope in a few weeks (so much for a "honeymoon period"!), so thanks for helping me talk it all through.

Overwhelmed but counting my blessings, (HOD, Carrie, this discussion board, supportive parents, small victories. . . )

I am so glad to see all of those thoughts are helpful!

I was also going to mention that I set my dd schedule. She is required to complete the boxes in the order that I set. I did this for two reasons. She is very distractible and if she is worn out, then she can't move forward. If she can't move forward with school because she had too much writing and reading at one time, then she starts wasting time. My oldest actually has mild dyslexia and while she is doing CTC fine and independently, some times the readings are really hard for her. So I set her schedule in a way that balance hands on activities, math, writing and reading so that she isn't doing too much of the same thing for too long a time. The second reason I set her schedule is my selfish one, I need to set the schedule so that I can help all 3 kids with school and have to know who I am helping and when.

I think if you are getting a 4-Unit week done in 5 days, I would be happy with that right now. I actually modified my dd's day a little bit so that she can get her day done over 5 days. We do a few of the subjects on Monday after co-op so that she can have lighter days throughout the week. And then we always do the painting on Saturdays. Since my dd is so young, I am helping her with the painting. And she likes me helping her. So after breakfast, we clean the table and she does her painting. It has been a lot of fun to do it this way.

Since I work from home, I have a ton of days where we may need to adjust our schedule because I have a meeting or something comes up. I need the kids to really have all 5 days available to spread the load. And HOD is very rich and kids get to learn a ton! I know my kids are learning way more with HOD than they would have if I designed their curriculum LOL. But I guess what I was wanting to say is that if his speed really does require more time, I would give it too him. As long as he is trying. Also, my dd gets lots of breaks. She works in the morning for about 2.5 hours and then she takes the rest of the morning off. Then she works in the afternoon for an hour or so, gets a break, and then finishes up. If she doesn't get a break when she needs it, then she just can't focus. For my younger 2, they ask for a breaks as well and I give it to them. We are pro-breaks

This is our second year with HOD. I would give yourself some grace to get things figured out. Last year was really tough for my oldest. She definitely was ready for Preparing but she really struggled with the independence and the volume. But at about week 16, she finally took off. She did great. I was glad we toughed it out. We are on unit 7 now with CTC but we took the first 3 units slow. I needed to make sure I could help her where she needed it. And I did. Now she is doing a ton more independently and this year I was pleasantly surprised I didn't have to lord over her and direct her every movement. I do still check up on her but this year, she has taken independence to a new level Also, last year I remember sitting with her and talking with her about how I needed her to embrace this schedule. We prayed about it and over it. And I made her a sign for her desk, Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not unto men. If she struggled, then we prayed about it. And finally, this is totally going to sound mean, but it came to point that she needed to own this schedule herself and she needed to want to get done. So if she didn't complete the reasonable amount of work I expected from her, then she had to keep working even when dad came home and possible all the way to bed time if need be. She hated that everyone else was getting a break and having fun. But I got to the point that I just couldn't in good conscious let her have the night off is she completely wasted the day! It was all about character training. I personally think all of these things put together are really what helped her want to be more independent and get it done And she had a complete transformation within a few months of this. So hopefully there were a few things here that might encourage as well

Rice, just a quick clarification, I use the timer more to set a limit on how much time is spent on a subject for the purpose of keeping one subject from becoming too overwhelming, rather than expecting completion within that time limit. The surprising result has been that dc have found themselves actually finishing the assigned work anyway as the distractions and stress have been removed. To cap, I don't put an expectation of completion within the time, just a requirement of a child's (and my) abstinence from dawdling and wandering.

Thanks, Daneale,
Yes, it's hard to wait for the breakthrough, isn't it? When I look at where we're at in the grand scheme of our year we are not behind or anything. Thankfully past years have taught me to have realistic expectations for September and I planned to do at least the first 3, possibly more, units at half-speed and slowly increasing. I'm pleased that my DS in LHFHG has been doing full speed for a couple weeks now (with that one having 5 day weeks he'll need to be ahead now if he's to finish the guide by the time the older ones are - 35 days ahead! I think we'll end up skipping a few things to make the year work out ).

I appreciate you going over your struggles: what you have allowed and enforced, etc. It reinforces what we've done in the past and continue to do: he doesn't get free time and media (a big motivator/consequence for him) until his work is complete. We've really struggled with his inability to "connect the dots" that when he wastes time in the morning he loses free time in the afternoon (and that we are not mean by enforcing that - it's simply a natural consequence). Now I've learned that his inability to make those connections may be a real and valid struggle for him.

I think my biggest struggle is the discrepancy between what my 9yo is able to do and what my 12yo isn't able to do (and I don't mean in quality of work - they work at different levels). We've struggled with the fact that he can't order his days; that I can give him his checklist and go over with him what to do but 10 minutes later when I'm working with the next child he's busy playing with Lego or causing a sibling to cry - he's been completely distracted and doesn't seem to know how to get himself back on track. After YEARS of working on it we seem no further ahead. I was hoping for smoother days this year since with following a guide it's all laid out for him, he doesn't need me to tell him what to do, but it's turned out to be frustrating that he can't follow it independently. The last couple days of hashing it out have confirmed there will be no quick fix and that I'll have to work on it more to help him learn to use it (the guide & any other helps we put in place) so he can learn his course material.

Now, having a label to put on his struggles legitimizes what we've always dealt with - it doesn't change what happens in our home day to day and what he can or can't get done. But maybe we'll be able to give him more concrete and effective structures for him to follow and skills that will not just help him in HOD but throughout his life.

And thanks for the clarification, Jennymommy. That makes sense.

Now comes more research for what his problems/struggles actually are and what is the best way to help minimize them, the best skills to teach him to order his days and then the day to day of repeating what it seems should not need to be repeated (again!) to reinforce what does not come naturally to him.

And Thank you, thank you, thank you, Lynn H for suggesting Executive Functioning Disorder - it doesn't just sort of match what he's like, every symptom fits him exactly! (In addition to dysgraphia.) This year will be a long learning curve for all of us, but I'm thankful that we've found HOD: it will allow me to focus on all these extras (Brain Training with my DD, maybe this DS, too; EFD, disgraphia, etc.) and know that all the educational bases are covered. Thank you SO much Carrie for sharing your efforts and skills in the form of HOD. Feeling blessed. . .

Blessings to you all,