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I want to say that I LOVE HOD and my dc are learning so much! I have however been thinking lately about substituting the Burgess Books for storytime with something else that displays the character I am trying to instill in my dc. While I like that the TM has teaching that counters some of what is read, I personally don't even like reading things that are not displaying wholesome character. Today for instance we were reading about how Reddy Fox lied when he was asked what happened to him and it seems like there is a lot of tricking, lying, teasing and so forth in the books and the more I read them, the more I feel like I should be reading something else that has moral character uplifted throughout the story itself . I know most people love these books but I'm wondering if any of you have substituted anything else for these books because of this reason and what you did instead? Is this common of most of the books in HOD...questionable character then additional teaching to correct it in the TM? I don't even know if there is anything else out there that would fit what I am looking for. Thank you.

I assume you're familiar with the Tale of Peter Rabbit also, how do you feel about that one? Peter is very mischevious and I would say doesn't uphold moral character but he learns a lesson in the end.

Reddy Fox is probably the one with the most of that kind of thing in it. Danny Meadow Mouse learns about bravery (and Peter Cottontail helps him out when he is hurt), Grandfather Frog learns about pride (that it is not good to be prideful), Chatterer the Squirrel learns that people are often better than they first appear to be, Buster Bear is a fun one that just doesn't (from what I remember) have anything questionable in it. There's the one where the Smiling pool dries up and the friends go on an expedition to find out why (similar moral to the Tortoise and the Hare). Basically I guess I'm saying if you aren't familiar with the other ones give them a read and see what you think. You may like them better than Reddy Fox.

I think it's good to choose books that uphold moral character and you will find many many of those as you go through HOD.

I am not sure how far you have made it in Reddy Fox but that isn't quite the "focus" of the book. In the beginning, yes. The focus was that he needed to learn how to be tricky. But it turns out he gets hurt and there is a lot more character building in the book as you go on.

I can honestly say that my dd and I have had some great conversations about the stories. She loves them. She actually reads them to herself first thing in the morning. And because the opportunity to talk about character is presented from these books, I have had no trouble with them. They seem to me to be great books.

If you find though that you aren't enjoying them, I would look at some of the book packs for Beyond and pick one of those to read aloud. Beyond has activities that go with them so you may want to get the TM to go with it.

Daneale

I agree with Daneale, I don't think the focus of Reddy Fox is trickery but rather what happens when an enemy is down. Reddy Fox gets hurt, and in the book it is clear that the reason why he gets hurt is his own arrogance. A lot of the rest of the book is about how other creatures in the forest respond to the news that Reddy Fox is hurt and can no longer hunt or run around the forest causing problems for everyone. Even though he has been their enemy, many of them eventually feel sorry for him and there is at least one chapter where one of these natural enemies brings him food.

My daughter was surprised and happy to see this compassion play out in the book, and we've had some great conversations about mercy and forgiveness.

That's been our experience. But I totally understand that these books may just not be right for your family. If you do decide that is the case, I wonder if you could just replace that box with some good picture books? You could still use that time to teach beginning narration and comprehension skills.

Jenn

The Burgess books were a favorite at our house, and they have actually had a very positive impact on our dc's behavior. Reddy Fox is probably the most mischievous, but he does realize the folly of his actions and change for the better - though still never becoming perfect, which is true of humans too. I remember we were to read about Cain killing Abel one day and thinking "I can't read that to my dc! They are brothers - what a terrible thought to put in their heads!" But then I thought to myself - what am I saying?!? Reading the Bible to my dc is a bad thing? I did read that story that day to my oldest ds doing that guide, and we did do the follow-up activities and discussions, and it was a pretty big growth moment for him. He had immense sadness about Cain killing Abel, and then also about Cain being sent away to wander the earth. He ended up hugging little brother (who was around 2 at the time) and saying, "I sure love you!" (The two year hadn't even heard the reading, so he was just thrilled to get a hug from big brother! ). I think that was actually somewhat of a pivotal day actually. We had a talk about how big brothers are to cherish little brothers, be their protectors, love them unconditionally, and try to lead them to know God - with their words and with actions. He really has taken on that role heartily, and it probably began with a story about a flawed man like Cain who did a sinful thing and suffered the consequences - and I almost didn't read that story that day. Here is a recount of it - I just looked it up for me to reminisce...
8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so[e]; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.

Pretty powerful!!! I am not trying to say that I think the Thorton Burgess books are akin to the Bible - please know that! I am just trying to say that I find it is difficult to talk about having Godly character traits if there are never situations or characters in the books that we are reading that are in need of God themselves. I truly love that Carrie chooses books that show real struggles and temptations, without glorifying poor decisions. In other words, there are usually natural consequences for poor decisions or poor character qualities - much like we often see in the Bible - poor decisions are not exalted.

The Introduction of LHFHG lays out the purposes of the Burgess books and their accompanying daily plans...

Each book is ideal for reading aloud because it centers on one main character and the many different problems the character encounters. Children will get to know the characters on a deeper level and will eagerly anticipate what might happen next. Each unit includes the following language activities in coordination with the read-aloud assignments:
*Day 1: basic comprehension discussion questions
*Day 2: retelling the story in a variety of ways
*Day 3: critical thinking questions including some vocabulary discussion
*Day 4: early writing practice emphasizing names and simple words
*Day 5: moral connection questions with personal application

For these reasons, I think substituting books and achieving the same results (both academic in the language arts area and Godly-character trait based studies in the personal application realm) would be nearly impossible. The work Carrie has put into matching each day's reading to specific questions, critical thinking, vocabulary, related writing practice, and moral connections that are Scriptural with personal application - all make just switching out books and trying to rewrite the plans to include this balance of skills and Godly character application pretty near to impossible (at least I'd find it so).

From another post, I've pasted Carrie's reasons for choosing the Burgess books, as I thought this may be helpful...

I do wish to mention that the Thornton Burgess books remain my top choice for addressing the transition from picture to chapter books for the following reasons:

1. They are truly living stories, written by a single author who was a passionate naturalist. His attention to detail and enthusiasm for the outdoor world allows us to learn much about God's creation as we read the stories.

2. The stories feature delightful animal characters who get themselves into the very scrapes and situations that children fall into with their natural sinful nature.

3. The animals have natural consequences for their behavior which children can learn from.

4. The children get to know the personality of a character and can begin to guess how that character will react.

5. Through the stories the kiddos are exposed to all types of characters from sly Granny fox (who uses trickery to accomplish her goals) to Chatterer the Red Squirrel (who doesn't think before he acts). The stories encourage children to apply this learning to real life by examining the character, motives, and actions of those who surround them.

6. By getting to know the characters, children are able to stay with the thread of a story longer. This helps transition them into higher level listening skillls which are required for lengthier chapter books.

So, just in closing, I think there is much merit in reading the Burgess books, especially due to Carrie's accompanying plans. I know this is near and dear to your heart, and something you are pondering. I am thrilled you are loving HOD overall, and I hope something here can help!

In Christ,
Julie

Thank you for your input ladies. We have actually read all of Reddy Fox and are almost finished with Peter Cottontail. It is a decision I will have to ponder about some more. I guess since there is so much teaching I have to do daily with my own dc regarding these issues because of our own sinful nature, it just seems like for extra reading I should read things that promote good, Godly behavior instead. Julie I laughed as I read your post because I thought the very same thing about the Cain and Able story! Thank you for taking the time to reply and giving me lots of things to ponder.

I think it will be difficult for you to find children's literature that is free of some characters who make poor choices. And has to do with the fact that we are all sinners. There are a few books I can think of where the characters don't have character flaws, but not many. Even the Little House on the Prairie books have the children misbehaving and being corrected for it. Obviously we all have to decide what we are comfortable with personally (and as Julie stated the Bible is full of examples of bad choices people make). What I think is most important when evaluating a book, is whether the negative behavior is glorified or not. Our children will all come across negative influences in life, and it is our opportunity as parents to engage with them in this arena. Each parent will come to a different decision on when is the best time to approach these issues, and what they feel comfortable with.

We read through all the Burgess books recommended, plus at least 10 more through the school year. I do not think that my children learned negative behavior through the books. They actually were quite discerning at seeing what the characters were doing wrong and how they should change their behavior.

I can understand where you are coming from, though when I think of how my kids have learned bad behaviors (like sticking out their tongue!) from seemingly innocent children's classic movies. Sometimes it is not worth it to introduce new ideas of ways to sin when our children are already adept at it. But I have to say I was very surprised by your question and that thought never even crossed my mind when I read these books to my children. I felt personally like the negative behavior was not glorified and that the books taught good character traits to my kids.

I will be the odd one out here and say that I too felt the same way you did about the Burgess books.

In our house we wait to read bad character in anything. We choose to read, watch, and talk about biblical character traits that we want to practice. Being born into sin lends itself nicely to having plenty of examples of what not to do even at an early age. We have chosen to filter/shelter greatly when they are little in order to not add to the natural sin nature. Honestly this has made a difference at least in our home. To use an example of something that was already said, the sticking out the tongue in a movie, we haven't watched a lot of the main stream "kids" movies, so our kids actually haven't seen this. (Please don't think I am saying anything bad about if you do allow certain books or movies, I was just using it as an example as something they haven't picked up. (yet) )

Also, just in case you think my kids are perfect they have LOTS of character to work on...disrespect, first time obedience, kindness, gentleness, self control,...we have memorized the fruits of the spirit in hopes that it will help!

To answer what we used...more picture books, we did read the Little House on the Prarie books editing while we read out loud, we have read some other chapter books from HOD lists. Interestingly we found the times of acting up in the Little House books different then how it was portrayed in the Burgess so it must just be different perspectives.

My point in sharing all this is to encourage you to do what you feel the Lord has called your family to. You will obviously miss out on the storytime questions in LHFHG but there is much more in the guide than just that. We have been criticized from some saying that we are sheltering "too" much but we believe there is plenty of time for all that later. It is such a short time of innocence in the world we live in today.
Blessings,
April

Thank you April for your encouraging post! Its good to know I'm not all alone...I was beginning to wonder lol. I agree with everything you said. Thank you for confirming what I have been feeling. I'm still not certain what to do but it is good to know that there is at least one other person that shares the same feelings. I'm still pondering and praying about how to proceed but thank you to everyone who has shared your viewpoint

I wonder if perspective also has to do with where you are at in schooling your children. For us, our 6yo doing LHFHG has been exposed to so much more from having 7+ cousins older than him (and all but his siblings in PS) that Burgess is quite innocent and a good time for us to discuss these behaviours while not pointing fingers at the offending child! Whether you decide to substitute or not with this, your first, child you may find that by the time #3 comes along you won't see the same contrast between your ideals and what is portrayed in the stories. That doesn't mean that your concerns aren't valid. I know there are things I protected my first from that it was impossible to protect my second & third from (never mind #7!) but that doesn't mean I shouldn't keep trying. All this to say, that you need to follow your heart and conscience in deciding when/what to expose your children to. If your children have not seen these behaviours yet then maybe it is a good chance to introduce them and discuss them before another child exhibits them so you have a context in which to discuss the offending behaviour without judgement on the child the same way (they're struggling with __ the same as so-and-so in your Burgess story), OR maybe you feel that puts the cart before the horse and would rather switch books, maybe reading them later when those character traits/sins become reality in your child's world.

Having come from a curriculum that we loved for the last five years I've come to realize two things: 1) there is no perfect curriculum - so feel free to make changes as your conscience dictates. They are wonderful tools to use as God leads, AND 2) the more changes you make, the more work it is for you. Now, that may be perfectly acceptable in a given situation but not in another. There is more than just a book choice involved when substitutions are made. Is the work of trying to cover the material (narration skills, character questions, etc.) beyond the storyline (especially the ones we're not aware that Carrie has worked in there) worth the offset of not dealing with certain issues right now or not?

Blessings as you wrestle with this. May God give you wisdom, guidance and peace!