Carrie/Julie/Experienced HOD Moms - Placement Dilemma

[daybreaking]

Rather than giving a lengthy explanation, let me just sum things up to say that we had some life events that put a monkey wrench into our HOD plans. I mistakenly thought going the textbook route would simplify things for us, but, in retrospect, I truly have missed the richness of HOD and especially working closely with my son, rather than just having him complete his textbooks. Long story short, we never really got off with Preparing, but I am longing to get back on track with our HOD studies.

My dilemma is where to place my son at this point in time - whether I should continue with Preparing or move him up to a higher guide. As far as his current abilities, he is very bright and is an excellent reader with fantastic comprehension skills. He has done extremely well on oral narrations, even from a young age, but has never done a written narration, other than book reports for English. (He is currently finishing up R&S English 5, at the rate of a lesson a day.) He can write several long paragraphs in cursive; however, if an assignment involves a lot of writing, he would prefer to do it orally. He is almost done with R&S Math 6 and finds it to be very easy, although it takes about an hour or more a day, between the lesson and assignment. He struggles in spelling and has taken longer to get through the dictation passages, due to small errors. (Because of his struggle with spelling, I've added in R&S spelling to the mix.)

He often needs more time to finish an assignment than would be expected, partly because he is a perfectionist and partly because he gets distracted. He is not the "check it off and move on" type of child, but rather is the "rabbit trail" type. I often have to redirect him or he would go on for an hour discussing something relating to the lesson at hand. I love this about him, but I also have to work within the hours we have available. Another reason his work takes longer is because he is very detailed with it. Back in Beyond, he would often take 45 minutes to an hour to do poetry copywork and drawing, as he would do very neat handwriting on the copywork and would draw elaborate colored pictures for the illustation. In Bigger, he would spend 45+ minutes on the notebooking assignments, to get them “just so.” At the same time, when he was asked to copy the timeline information about the Wright Brothers onto his notebooking page, the length of the copying was discouraging to him. I've noticed that if assignments seem manageable to him, he easily jumps in and does well; however, if an assignment is long, it's much harder for him to plow through in a timely fashion.

I own Preparing and all of the books, including the extensions, and I had really wanted to go through the guide with him. When we started Grandpa's Box and some of the other books, my son loved them and begged for more on a regular basis. Along with that, I like the idea of the gradual progression of skills in the guides and am concerned about him missing the skills taught in Preparing. The problem is my son is finishing 5th grade and will turn 12 in August, so if we pick Preparing back up now (and resume in the fall), he'll end up missing several guides at the end. I've pondered a few options to get us back on track. I've considered just doing Preparing as written, along with the extensions, and not worrying about missing any later guides; I've considered doing the guides 5 days a week for the remainder of my son's schooling, to try to catch up; I've considered trying to "rush" him through Preparing by doing two units a week; I've considered homeschooling all summer; and I've considered skipping Preparing and moving into CTC. I truly don't know which is the best option. I worry about making school drudgery by pushing my son too fast, yet I don't want him to miss any of HOD.

Any thoughts?

[MelInKansas]

I would place him where he fits on the placement chart, and not continue Preparing just as a default. He probably needs to be challenged first of all, and then you need to work with him on focussing and getting tasks done on his own effectively. There are some threads on here that talk about this - as many children do struggle in this area. I am okay with rabbit trails during school if they are quick and productive ones. I don't mind curiousity and investigation. I do mind dawdling and putting off less desirable tasks by doing something else. She has to discuss with me if she wants to do something else other than what is assigned.

My DD has grown a lot in maturity through Preparing so far (we are now 1/2 way through). I can now leave her with 3-4 tasks and usually she will get them done well and remain fairly focussed as long as her cute 2 YO brother doesn't wander by. At the beginning I would let her start on one task at a time and I would check back in periodically to make sure she was still on task. Carrie has talked in some of her tips about helping the child to focus by talking through with them what they are doing, doing some orally, just giving them verbal prods to get the focus back where it needed to be. Julie has talked about using a timer to help kids use their time wisely. If I were really being helpful I would link to some of these other posts, but maybe you can do a search.

As for his perfectionism and taking a long time to finish assignments because he wants to do it well and add a lot of detail, I guess I would try to give him this freedom if you can. Maybe put those types of things toward the end of the day and that way if he has the stamina he can sit and do it to his best, or you can help him go through what is the minimum required and let him know he is welcome to do that, or to do more/better if he wants. I don't know if that would work. You never want to encourage "substandard" work but it sounds to me like he could do good work and still spend much longer making it as good as he wants it to be. Or if he is working on those, when it is time for him to work with you he has to stop no matter where he is and work with you, and then when he is done working with you he can go back to his work.

[pjdobro]

It's a tough decision. When I read about your ds perfectionist qualities and reluctance in writing, I feel inclined to suggest that you stick with Preparing. For my dc, the jump from Preparing to CTC has been the most difficult one so far. It is big step up in the level of independence and the amount of writing each day. Writing in the notebook was a difficult transition for my dc. It sounds like your son would do well with the writing probably not having a difficult time at all with writing in the notebook pages, but since he has a bit of an aversion to writing, the amount of writing might be a bit overwhelming for him and trying to be neat in the notebook might be time consuming for him. Preparing has been our favorite guide so far. It is such a great year to help dc learn to do written narrations, learn to be independent in small chunks, and get a wonderful overview of World History especially Biblical history. By adding in the extensions you would increase the level of the difficulty so I would think your ds would be challenged enough but find it a fun year. I wouldn't try to double up on the workload. I think that would just make it overwhelming and you would miss the beauty of the program. You could however try doing Preparing 5 days a week if you felt like it and see how that goes. You could then just move into the next guide when you finished and go from there. I really wouldn't try to worry about fitting in all of the guides in at this point. None of us knows what lies down the road, so just make the best choice for today and let God work out the future.

[daybreaking]

For my dc, the jump from Preparing to CTC has been the most difficult one so far. It is big step up in the level of independence and the amount of writing each day. Writing in the notebook was a difficult transition for my dc. It sounds like your son would do well with the writing probably not having a difficult time at all with writing in the notebook pages, but since he has a bit of an aversion to writing, the amount of writing might be a bit overwhelming for him and trying to be neat in the notebook might be time consuming for him.

This is helpful to know. In the past, we did Apologia science, with the accompanying notebooking journal. My son is a science buff and loved Apologia, but the notebooking really held us back, due to the length of time it took him. From your description, it sounds like CTC might be similar. It's hard to know what is the best for him. I don't want to hold my son back, but I also want him truly to enjoy learning and thrive in the guide that is best for him.

[Nealewill]

I definitely don't think you would be holding your son back in doing Preparing for him next year. My oldest dd has 4 weeks left! I am very excited but also a little bit scared of the jump from Preparing to CTC. I agree other poster who stated CTC is more writing. If you son still struggled with moving forward with completing his assignments timely, then CTC might be a little discouraging. I would definitely add in the extensions for your son and see how he does. You could then reassess him after this upcoming year is over and see if he places in R2R instead of CTC after preparing is over. Or you could continue up one guide at a time and adjust MTMM and Rev to Rev if you need to make them high school worthy. But I do think your son would love Preparing. We have absolutely loved it! And it has really helped my dd who can't focus to hunker down, work hard, focus and finish her tasks. It has not only been a great learning year but also a character training year.

[my3sons]

Daybreaking - so good to hear from you! I understand how life can be full of surprises - sometimes good ones, sometimes hard ones. In the hard times, I believe deep in my heart that this is God refining me out of love, drawing me closer to Him than I could have been if life was all roses, but sometimes it is just plain tough to see the silver in the refining (I am sure the Lord has these thoughts of me as well - where is the silver in this refining, my daughter, Julie?!?) Each day I wake up and have to depend on Him - be drawn back to Him. I pray your 'monkey wrench' draws you back to Him as well - He loves you - remember that - always.

Your ds - sounds precious! I am so glad you are drawn back to HOD. The heart of a child lies here. It does not lie in textbooks, though sometimes they seem the thing to do. Your ds's reading, his grammar, his math, his age - all place higher than PHFHG. His writing? This is the key. You mentioned he'd still rather do oral narrations. I believe there is a switch that happens as dc become more confident writers - they begin to almost prefer written narrations. Maybe because they can control the time they to it (no waiting on mom ), but probably because it can be done in a more timely fashion and more succinctly than an oral narration as dc become more proficient writers. So here's the thread I'd love you to read and ponder - comparing the skills in PHFHG and CTC - paying special attention to the writing portions...

Comparing PHFHG to CTC in Skills:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12582&p=90658#p90658

One question - how much did ds write last year each day? How many times each day, and how many sentences about each time? Or, did he do much of his school orally? Can he grow in the are of writing fairly quickly with practice, consistency, and lots of encouragement (sons need this in writing )? A lot of times strong readers can become strong writers with practice. Ok that is more than one question. You can train your ds to reduce the rabbit trails (allow 'x' amount of time for formal school - where MOM must be present, and then have ds hop off the rabbit trail as time is running out to resume it later - outside of school hours independently - should he still so desire to do so ). You can also train ds to manage his time better. Routine - set the timer - use the guide like a student planner - etc., all this can help. But the writing, only so much can be gained within a year. If ds is unable to do the amount of writing in CTC or grow into it fairly quickly - as within the first 1/3 - that means PHFHG with extensions would be better. What are your thoughts about the amount of writing in CTC?

In Christ,
Julie

[daybreaking]

Daybreaking - so good to hear from you! I understand how life can be full of surprises - sometimes good ones, sometimes hard ones. In the hard times, I believe deep in my heart that this is God refining me out of love, drawing me closer to Him than I could have been if life was all roses, but sometimes it is just plain tough to see the silver in the refining (I am sure the Lord has these thoughts of me as well - where is the silver in this refining, my daughter, Julie?!?) Each day I wake up and have to depend on Him - be drawn back to Him. I pray your 'monkey wrench' draws you back to Him as well - He loves you - remember that - always.

Thank you, Julie, for this encouragement!

Your ds - sounds precious! Julie

You are so sweet! Yes, he is precious, indeed! I am very blessed by him (and his little sister).

One question - how much did ds write last year each day? How many times each day, and how many sentences about each time? Or, did he do much of his school orally?

As I've thought about this, I've realized I have had my son do a lot of written work this year, mainly in the form of workbooks or answers to textbook questions. Here's a recap:

He did pretty much all of the written portion of the R&S English in writing, although I did let him write in the textbook when all that was needed was along the lines of adding correct punctuation or choosing the correct word to use. Occasionally we would do some parts orally, such as if he were asked to give the definition of a noun.

He began the year doing his textbook history orally, but after about a month, I switched to where he wrote down the answers. This involved several short answer questions, 5-7 sentence answer questions, and mapwork, spread over two days. He enjoyed the history much more when we did it orally. When I switched to him writing the answers, I could tell that it became almost drudgery for him, although he still did it. He did his textbook science orally for the whole year and loved it. One time, I asked him his opinion about doing the science written, like he did his history, and he responded that he would no longer enjoy science if he had to write the answers.

We also had him doing R&S Bible, which encompassed several pages of short answer questions, plus about 6-7 sentence answer questions, alternated with R&S Reading, which included several short answer questions and either a few sentence answers or a paragraph answer. Occasionally, when there was a lot of writing with the R&S Bible, we would let him give his answers orally.

Lastly, we had some additional curriculum which added in writing (one page of "Hey, Andrew, Teach me Some Greek" a day; one page of Latin a day, although I put that aside midyear; one page of a handwriting workbook several days a week; one page of R&S Spelling a day; and 6 short dictation sentences, from All About Spelling, about 1-2 times a week).

Can he grow in the are of writing fairly quickly with practice, consistency, and lots of encouragement (sons need this in writing ) But the writing, only so much can be gained within a year. If ds is unable to do the amount of writing in CTC or grow into it fairly quickly - as within the first 1/3 - that means PHFHG with extensions would be better. What are your thoughts about the amount of writing in CTC?

I'm not quite sure. When he has to copy information, or if he needs to write long sentence answers, I think it's sometimes discouraging to him and seems to take the joy out of learning for him, if that makes sense. Interestingly, when R&S English has a writing assignment, such as a book report, he loves it and says it's one of his favorite thing to do. However, it's not a quick process. The other day he had a book report for an assignment. He worked on it for about 30-45 minutes and then asked me if he could finish it the next day. I agreed. It's now two days later and he is still working on it. When he finishes, it will be done well, but I'm not sure how all this will bode for the writing in CTC. It's hard to know for sure. Because he's so bright (probably gifted), I've made the mistake in the past of pushing too hard. I don't want to squelch the love of learning in him by insisting he do something that he "should" be able to do, but might not be ready to do. At the same time, I do want him appropriately challenged and I want him to reach his potential.

[8arrows]

With what you posted about his writing, I would put him in CTC.

[Nealewill]

I agree with 8arrows. Sounds like he writes a ton! He would probably be fine in CTC with the amount of writing. Some of it is answering questions but if find HOD to be a breath of fresh of air! I came from Abeka for LA, we used RightStart math (lot more writing than Singapore), I used the Apologia series for science with the note books (good night with that amount writing) and then we would do various history activities. My dd was 7! Hello, that was an insane amount of writing. When she was 8 we switched gears and we did a much lighter year with another company. Then last year was my first year with HOD (I know you have done other levels before) and I found this amount work perfect for her! She does some writing. She does some reading. She does some hands on activities. We found that for the last 1/3 of Preparing, the volume had increased and my dd really had to try and stay on task to get through her day timely. The timer was a huge blessing. But she also had to stay somewhat near me if I had any hope of making sure she stayed on task. We worked it out and now she is soaring.

One thing I found with HOD is we pretty only use the products they recommend and that is it. I did RightStart math with my kids last year and for my oldest, she took SO long each day with that. RightStart and Singapore teach similarly. So this year I am considering switching everyone. That will be a huge help. I have already got everyone trying it out over this summer with a 1/2 level lower than what they placed (because even though Singapore teaches things in a similar order, it isn't exact) and I wanted to see how they would take to new things. Well, so far so good . I also did AAS for my oldest and middle child (oldest has some dyslexia tendencies and middle has a language delay) but I am at a point with my oldest, I feel like we will just move straight to dictation because she is no longer really learning any useful words. Plus, she now spelling all the rule breakers wrong - she is using the rule LOL. So I think she is now at a point dictation would be wise. Plus, i have noticed that AAS has gotten so easy that she isn't really learning much now. She is completing Level 4 this year. She either knows it or she doesn't. And with AAS, they have moved to doing a ton of words lists to review anyway. To me, that is just like dictation. And with the dictation, there are a lot more words my kids are actually using at the time in their writing so I like using that better. So I am not sure how far your DS has made with AAS, but switching spelling curriculums might help cut back on some writing too.

[daybreaking]

I only have a second right now, but I wanted to thank all of you wonderful ladies for your thoughtful and helpful replies! It is very helpful to hear the different perspectives and experiences. What a wonderful support group we have on this board!

[pjdobro]

I agree with the other posters. After reading everything that he has been writing, I don't think he will have a problem at all with the writing in CTC. You might want to look through the tips on written narration in Preparing since you have that guide just to help him get started with the written narrations in CTC, It sounds like he has been doing much more writing on a daily basis than will be required of him in CTC so he should do fine. Since he loved Grandpa's Box, I would let him read it over the summer or read it together. I think it is a not to be missed book for everyone!

[my3sons]

CTC would be a pretty solid placement from what you have shared. For R & S English, I'd start having him do 2/3 of it orally/markerboard and reserve just one section or one writing assignment for him to write. This will help him have stamina for the rest of the writing in the day. I think he sounds ready for CTC - hooray!!! Thank you for patiently answering all of my questions!

In Christ,
Julie

[daybreaking]

It sounds like the consensus is definitely CTC!!

If you don't mind, I have one further question about going that route, in regards to helping my son not feel so overwhelmed by the workload. To give you an example of what I mean, we're still finishing up our school for the year and my precious ds has been working for the last hour with tears streaming down his face, because of feeling overwhelmed about how long everything is taking him. He's a hard worker, so I know he'll eventually get done, but this is not how I want our days to be next year and I certainly don't want him to dread school. I'm a bit concerned since he'll be in R&S English 6 and R&S Math 7, both of which will have higher demands, plus he is very involved in music, spending (by choice) 1 to 1 1/2 hours a day practicing his instruments, doing music theory, etc., along with weekly orchestra practice and lessons. Since folks seem to agree that CTC is the best placement, does anyone have suggestions on helping him not be so overwhelmed by longer assignments?

Also, Julie, if you were in my shoes, would you school five days a week (or school through the summer) in an attempt to get through all of the guides or would you just let the last guide go? I'm a "completer" by nature and have always had my children finish all of their school books/curriculum for each year, so it's doing me in to think of not finishing all of the guides. At the same time, I don't want the rest of the years of our schooling to feel rushed and I certainly don't want our days filled with tears.

[StephanieU]

I don't have all of the answers, but I would do R & S English half speed. He is ahead of the schedule Carrie has, so it would lesson his workload. Maybe have him do half a lesson each day. Carrie's plan is for them to finish R&S 6 by the end of 8th grade (MtMM). So, even at half speed, you would be half a grade ahead of that. Rod and Staff math seems fairly advanced as well, with lots of Algebra 1 skills in 7 and 8, so you might just spread those out a little to cover 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. I haven't compared it to the table of contents for the Algebra books Carrie recommends, but you may find you could go to one of those after 7 even.

[Nealewill]

I think if you do the guide as is, you could move to doing it 5 days per week. Also, Julie mentioned doing 2/3 of R&S orally with grammar. That has definitely decreased the length of our day. There are some days I don't make my dd do anything written. But she is in book 3. I only want grammar to take 15 minutes or so.

Also - with all of the other things you have going on, everything takes time. I don't mean this to be mean so please don't take it that way but I personally would prioritize what is most important to you and schedule based on that. For us, we are VERY busy. My kids are always involved in a sport, we belong to co-op where my oldest is involved in a play and they all take other classes (mainly fun but sometimes an educational one), we all take music lessons and my oldest does voice lessons, and we do something called AWANA where my kids memorize approximately 30-50 verses a year and my oldest completes in the city wide bible quiz. One thing I also recently added in was typing and that is done a few days a week. So we are busy! We do school over the summer to be sure to get ahead. With our commitments, spring is really hard and we usually take a few weeks off because there is so much going on. But for school, one thing that helped immensely was implementing a timer. In addition, and I know some would frown on this, I do get things out for my dd for her activities for science and history projects and then I usually clean it up also. I do this for two reasons, (1) she is not efficient enough to get things out in a timely fashion and (2) she takes forever at clean up because she tries to do an overly good job. Next year in CTC, there is absolutely NO way I am having her do the poetry paintings alone because she could easily waste an hour with set up and clean up. My dd is also on the youngest age of the guide too. Other than that, she does great with the assignments and I feel like she is perfectly placed. But set up and tear down are her nemesis! Also - with the timer, she has had to step it up with trying to get done in the time frame. She is also a perfectionist. What I moved to doing with some of her drawings at the beginning of the year is I set the timer, she completed the drawing but then if she didn't finish coloring and the timer went off, I gave her the option of coloring it later or not finishing it. At first, she went back and colored it. Then she started not coloring it. Now some might say that she didn't finish the assignment. For me, this was a good lesson for her that everything doesn't have to be perfect. She relaxed a little, decided she liked having her time, she does a great job now with pictures and even has time to color them, but most importantly she gets them done in a timely fashion. And finally - for her - she does well with getting breaks. She wants time to relax, I want time for everyone to get some exercise, and my 3 kids LOVE to play together. We only school 4 days a week because we have co-op weekly. She does 2-2.5 hours in the AM and then 2-2.5 in the PM. I have moved to having her complete the Left Side of the guide plus math in the AM. She starts at 9:00 and gets finished by 11:00 or 11:30. Then she starts back up with the right side around 1:00 or 1:30 and finishes between 3:00 and 4:00. Rarely does she have more than 4.5 hours of school per day unless she wastes time. So the more she accomplishes before lunch, the less she has to do after lunch.

Hope some of these things might help when you are planning your year next year.