Spelling: I question

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MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Spelling: I question

Post by MelInKansas » Tue May 06, 2014 4:03 pm

I have read a lot on here and even defended the spelling/dictation done in the guides as a good method for teaching spelling. My understanding is it is based on visualization of the word. I know this is how I learned to spell (because I was an avid reader) and I think I am good speller.

Then there are other programs out there that teach the spelling rules in a very incremental way, and teach many many rules, more than I ever knew. I think I know some of them intuitively but the problem is I cannot explain them to my kids when they want to know. Just the other day I figured out that "eight" "neighbor" and "weigh" must all use the same rule.... "eigh" says "a." So sometimes I think doing a more rule-based approach, or maybe even buying it and studying it myself, would be beneficial.

I see this when my oldest is trying to spell something and can't remember it. She has nowhere to start, no sets of rules to flip through for a sound to figure out how it is spelled. She relies completely on her memory, so if it is not a word that she can get out of short-term memory then she just sits there dumbfounded. She is only 9 and is doing dictation level 2. Maybe I just need to keep going and give it more time for her to be able to think through spelling better. I think she is an average speller for her age.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by MelInKansas » Tue May 06, 2014 4:24 pm

I should add, this may be my fault, but when she is writing her written narration, science answers, English, or whatever she doesn't want to spell anything wrong so it is really slowing her down. It's managable, not terrible, and again she is a decent speller but it seems to be a hump we are having trouble getting over.
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

TrueGRIT
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 10:14 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by TrueGRIT » Tue May 06, 2014 4:54 pm

I don't know if this helps, but I have seen these blends used more in phonics and not moving on to "real" spelling until children were comfortable with them. That's the way my brother learned and one of my sons, and they rarely get a word wrong. It's also sort of the way I learned. I did not have spelling before second grade, but instead was shown and studied phonics very thoroughly. I am a natural speller - my favorite subject- so that may make a difference.
I have myself, been studying phonics and different Spelling programs to try to help my one child who is struggling with spelling. My thoughts were if I studied, then I could help DS when he had a problem. I agree it would be beneficial to study it for ourselves!
Mikki
Ds 12- tutoring
Ds 9- Preparing
Dd 7 - Beyond and ER's
Ds 2- LHTH (sort of)

gratefulmama
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: MO

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by gratefulmama » Wed May 07, 2014 12:22 am

There is a book called "The ABC's and All Their Tricks" by Margaret M Bishop that may be helpful to you. I don't know how to link previous posts for you, but if you do a search for "abc's tricks" here on the HOD website you should find several references to this book. I have it on hand for future use but haven't used it yet!
HTH! Blessings!
Wife to my hero for 17 yrs
Blessed to be a mom through the beautiful gift of adoption 4x!
DS (10/03) CTC, DITHOR
DS (5/05) CTC, DITHOR
DD (5/08) LHFHG
DD (02/11)

Nealewill
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Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by Nealewill » Wed May 07, 2014 12:38 am

For me - my oldest is a child with dyslexic tendencies (we didn't have her tested but she learned to read and spell using dyslexic phonics method with All About Spelling). My son as a language and speech delay. He also has to learn to read using dyslexic methods. My youngest is a natural memorizer so spelling lists and dictation are perfect. My youngest - even though she is 6 - loves doing school and is finished with all the lists in Beyond and is half way through level 2 dictation.

For phonics program that teach rules, there really aren't that many "rules" to learn because the rest of the words aren't based on rules. For my oldest dd, we only used AAS because she was constantly adding letters in that didn't belong or leaving letters out that you could clearly hear in the word. Same thing for son. He didn't even start spelling until this year because he couldn't pronounce any of the words he would spell correctly so how can you spell something you can even say? We tried lists with him but he didn't quite understand phonics either so lists weren't so great for him. However, even with rules, there are always exceptions. Plus, with my oldest, she can't proof anything....as in at all LOL. That is the beauty of dictation. They learn to proof read and can find their errors. And while my dd's spelling when she writes is pretty descent now, she only scored a 27% on the standardized test for spelling because she couldn't tell which words was spelled incorrectly. That would be the proof reading aspect. And I don't actually care that she got that score. If I asked her to spell those words without seeing that test - she would have gotten at least 90% of them correct. But what it did enlighten me to was the fact that when she does write, she can't proof read her own work and then find any errors.

I am finding that the way kids learn to spell is they read, read, read and they see the word several times and then they can spell it. Even my oldest :-) I was actually planning to switch her to dictation this year at some point but just haven't. I am waiting to finish a few more rules with her. For her, the rules have helped in some areas. However, she is at a point where with AAS they give the kids words banks (AKA spelling lists) that they read multiple times and then memorize the words from that. I feel like we have really maxed out on rules at this point. The rules basically caught her up to be able to spell enough to write. And she could care less about if something is spelled correctly now. She used to care but somehow I was able to encourage her to not worry about it. So now my plan is to make the switch to dictation once she starts CTC. So for your question about the rule with eigh saying "A." You would just learn that eigh says "A" and then you would read a word bank with words with that same sound. There is no "rule" per se and I don't care if other programs say there is (AKA Spelling Power prides themselves on "rules" but they are just telling you phonics sounds-that is what they call their rules, and they are not associating those sounds much with an actual rule). And with dictation, they are learning that word in conjunction with other words. If there are some words you child misses you could just add those to spelling words you go over for a few days in a row and maybe that would help it sink in more. I do that now. I read everything my dd writes and if there is a mistake in a word that I know she can spell, I ask her to fix it. If she can't or does lucky guesses (you know, where they sound like they don't know what they did wrong but they guess correctly) then I quiz her on those words 5 times in the next 3 weeks. I just keep a running list. This has been a great fit for us.

Good luck. If she seems like she is a perfectionist, then a rule based program won't solve your problem. But if she is really struggling, then googling common spelling rules and covering them over the summer or for a period of time might make all the difference. And if the type of words she is struggling with is words like eight - my dd still can't spell that word correctly and she is also 9. My dd can't even spell two LOL. She ALWAYS writes tow LOL.
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

MelInKansas
Posts: 1700
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by MelInKansas » Wed May 07, 2014 4:57 am

So how do you know if your child has dyslexic tendencies? This is another question on my mind lately. My husband is definitely mildly dyslexic, as a result he is a very slow reader and terrible speller. Back in the 70's dyslexia was not diagnosed and he was smart enough to compensate just enough to get by. My oldest doesn't seem to mix letters up, I mean she does occasionally but doesn't have a pattern of doing it a lot. My 2nd, who is in Emerging Readers, mixes things up ALL THE TIME. Letters, numbers. Saw and was are a big problem for her as well as no and on. She almost always gets those sets of words wrong the first time she reads them. She also pretty often writes 2 digit numbers backwards, even when copying. But I would not call her a struggling learner and if you tell her to go back and fix it she can figure it out. So I have not pursued any kind of assessment or anything, plus she is only 7. But if there are ways to make it easier for her or help her I would like to look into that.

I think some phonics solidifying would really help both of my older 2. My oldest, she is reading The Captive Princess about Pocahontas for DITHOR. This has REALLY demonstrated to me that she has difficulty sounding out unfamiliar words (there are some Native American words). But I really think part of her problem is she does not break the words down well into their smaller parts. She skips and blends and just guesses what the word would sound like. Any tips on how I can help her with this?
Melissa
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
His mercies never come to an end"

DD12 - Rev to Rev + DITHOR 6/7/8
DD10 - CTC + DITHOR 2/3
DD7 - Bigger + ERs
DS5 - LHFHG
DD2 - ABC123
2 babies in heaven

Nealewill
Posts: 1611
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by Nealewill » Wed May 07, 2014 9:45 am

My oldest struggled with reading tremendously! She couldn't sound things out at all. Sometimes for kids, it will come. For her, she was always guessing at the word. It wasn't so much mixing up the letters. What I would do is google "how can you tell if your child is dyslexic." There are a lot of common traits with kids that are dyslexic. I never had her formally tested either because it was expensive and I figured that by switching to products geared toward dyslexic children, that would hopefully help solve the problem. That helped tremendously. She could hardly read at the beginning of last year and by pursing this route she can read very well. It took about a year's worth of effort and I would say she is right with her peers in reading. She is still a slower reader compared with others but she has definitely increased in speed to where I am satisfied. She also can read well enough now that she can read the level 4/5 books without problems and she no longer has to read out loud to me at all. It is wonderful!!!!

For us, I just used the All About Learning products for my two oldest. My son is going to do level 4 of All About Reading when it comes out because he has a language delay and he really understands the way they teach to read. He actually has gone through and read all of the Emerging Readers now and loves to read. But he needed the help breaking down the multi syllable words and adding suffixes and prefixes. Level 2 is what taught a lot about breaking down syllables and Level 3 taught how to read words with prefixes and suffixes. We could probably skip level 4 but he never really learned all of the phonograms because he was having so much trouble with just breaking the words apart to read it. Plus he likes the AAS books a lot too so I figure I will just go through with him. I am also going to be ordering in the Level 2 books from the book pack this fall for him from HOD though. While we won't start DITHOR until after Christmas (I figure it will only take us about 4 months to finish AAR Level 4), he loves to read and I think he would really enjoy some of those books from the book pack. Plus, my youngest dd is has pretty much finished with the emerging readers and I am tired of searching the library for books for her to read. I think she is ready for the Level 2 books as well.

But I also do know that for some kids, time just pays off. I have friends who's kids couldn't read until they were 9. They just plugged away at it and eventually it came. That is not really my parenting style LOL. I like following a script and I like having everything spelled out for me. For me, All About Learning helped me with that. But be prepared if you go that route, AAR and AAS do take a longer in your day to complete than what is recommended by HOD. If you purse this, maybe try it over the summer or go half speed with Preparing so that you don't overload your dd.
Daneale

DD 13 WG
DS 12 R2R
DD 10 R2R

Enjoyed DITHOR, Little Hearts, Beyond, Bigger, Preparing, CTC, R2R, RevtoRev, MtMM

quiverfull
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:08 pm
Location: NH

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by quiverfull » Fri May 09, 2014 5:49 pm

I love "The Logic of English". I love the rules because then things make sense to me, and I can explain the reasons for different spellings when I am teaching my children. I used to hate teaching them to read and then have to say, "Um, well, that doesn't make that sound in this word." Now, usually, I know the reason and can explain it to them. There really is a "logic" to our language. A lot of words that we were taught as "sight" words, actually have a reason for being spelled a certain way. That's just me though, I'm sure it wouldn't be a fit for everyone. :D
Married for 30 years….Mom to 9~
Five graduated, four still in school. 28, 26, 24, 22, 20, 18, 16, 12, 10


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Robbi
Posts: 224
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:51 am
Location: western SD

Re: Spelling: I question

Post by Robbi » Thu May 29, 2014 1:33 pm

My 6 year old does the same thing especially with the words "saw" and "was". I just keep having him correct himself. I guess I assumed he just needs more practice. Although there is learning difficulties on my hubby side of the family (as in his brot can't read). So idk. Otherwise he's doing really well so I think for now we will keep plugging along.

My oldest didn't have any phonics instruction AT ALL. She taught herself to read in preschool. She does have some trouble with really big words or like you said native American words. Stuff like that. Again I hadn't thought she needs anything more than practice. :-) I guess I'm just saying you're not alone. Lol. Maybe I'm way off base with not doing anything so if you find something, let me know. :-)
Robbi
DD 19 Graduated from HOD
DS 15 USI & II combo
DS 10 RTR
DS 8 Preparing
We have now used all the guides!

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