Algebra...

[StillJulie]

After finishing Singapore 1A (Discovering Mathematics) and then 7B (hadn't purchased 1B before it was discontinued), I switched my oldest to the Prentice Hall Classics Algebra. We're only a couple week in so far, but we're both a little disappointed by the lack of higher level thinking we'd grown accustomed to in Singapore.

I'm trying to decide whether to stay the course or look at my options.

Any thoughts?

[LynnH]

I haven't used the Forester's Algebra text which is I think what you are meaning when you say the Prentice Hall Classics Algebra, but I can tell you it has a reputation for being a very rigorous program and is well thought of even by those who are very picky when it comes to math programs. You may need to get further into it to really see the deeper thinking since most Algebra 1 books lay down a solid foundation first and then it ramp up quite a bit.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I haven't used it yet and maybe it is just a style change. Asian math does not separate algebra 1, geometry, and algebra 2 and neither does most European countries. It is taught together in higher math. I found an explanation on MEP maths (which is free and has high school levels if you wish to check them out). I won't link them here, but it does explain if you go with the Asian Math how to figure American High School credits for it. You could check it out if Foerster's doesn't work out for you.
As for Foerster's Algebra 1, here I can actually put it down as AP Algebra 1 on our transcripts compared to other texts. So maybe there is a period of adjustment with the style change in math. Hope you find what works for your student.

[mamanlait]

Julie,
I think any Algebra program after Singapore seems almost like a different subject. I have looked over nearly every Algebra program available to homeschoolers and I always feel like I'm comparing Apples to Oranges after having used Singapore K-6 plus a little of DM 1. I can see how Foerster's will take us far but I haven't completely convinced myself that I like the subject matter so cut and dried -- clearly defined -- after using something that fairly effortlessly mixed critical thinking in with arithmetic. I know what you are saying, I understand your concerns but I think you are going to have to think of Algebra almost like a whole new arena of learning unless you stick with Singapore's DM or NEM (which I know would be excellent but too difficult for me to teach).

Foerster's has an excellent reputation and is considered by those in the know as one of the most rigorous of texts for Algebra and Algebra 2 especially for its critical thinking. As I look through the text, I can see that it starts very basically with fraction work in the introductory lessons. The word problems mid-way through look very challenging. I know, for me at least, I just had to wrap my brain around leaving the Singapore style before I felt comfortable with any program. I will tell you that VideoText also starts out with a basic arithmetic review before ramping up. I'm trying to remember if any of the programs I reviewed for Algebra had anything similar to the complexities in critical thinking of Singapore and I can't think of a one. Singapore feels like a subject of its own...and it's something I got so used to after 7 years of using it! Probably, we are similar in that we feel uncertain stepping out into new waters away from what we grew comfortable with. I've finally settled on something for this year (a 1980's Dolciani's Pre-Algebra course because my dd needs some growing time) and I do plan to move ahead with Foerster's next year but not without a little trepidation mostly because these traditional texts feel very strange to me.

[StillJulie]

My "former life" was as a high school math teacher. It's been easy for me to rule out many programs that I won't use, but to try to find the one (or actually more, since I'm constantly supplementing) has been much more challenging (and stress-inducing).

I think we'll stay the course with Foerster's, while continuing to supplement with Life of Fred. My oldest (the only one doing algebra work so far) has completed both Pre-Algebra Life of Fred books, and I'll have her continue with the Algebra one. That may help to give some of what I feel like is missing so far with Foerster's.

[StephanieU]

Although I haven't used Singapore, I know what you are talking about with critical thinking skills. I teach math (online) for our local community college. One option might be to supplement with a textbook colleges use for non-science majors. Something like For All Practical Purposes by COMAP, The Heart of Mathematics by Burger and Starbird, and Excursions in Modern Mathematics by Tannenbaum would work. If you go to a textbook website, look up "liberal arts math." These books include some algebra, probability, and geometry, but often the focus is on problem solving. The Heart of Mathematics book is probably the hardest one but most problem solving focused. The others are a little more straight forward, although still challenging.

[Nealewill]

Have you thought about using VideoText Algebra? I won't start using that for another year and half but that is my plan for when my kids start Algebra. I know many moms who use who love it. And my kids aren't doing Singapore Math, they are using RightStart but both programs are somewhat similar in the sense that you really understand math rather than just memorize how to do a problem. I like the VideoText is very similar in the way it teaches math to kids and that you are really thinking about how to solve the problem than just learning the steps you need to take to get the answer.

[mamanlait]

Julie,
If you have a math background, why not teach through Discovering Mathematics??

[StillJulie]

Julie,
If you have a math background, why not teach through Discovering Mathematics??

I don't have the books, and they're harder to get (the non-Common Core ones, anyway). I do have the Foerster's text. There is a set of 2A on homeschoolclassifieds that I'm looking at, but it would be nice to save the expense if Foerster's gets more challenging.

[my3sons]

Julie - we are halfway into Foerster's Algebra 1, and all I can say is... just wait. It is extremely rigorous, and deeper thinking (such as that in Singapore math) is coming. The story problems at the end of each chapter are going to thrill you (they don't have the same impact on me , though I too do love math). Take a look at Exercise 7-10, problems 1-41, pages 324-335. You will see what I mean. Look especially at the heading on p. 334 that reads ... For Problems 37 through 40, you must use the concepts of this chapter in clever ways! Those have Singapore style written all over them. We ended up spending 3 days on Exercise 7-10, doing the odds only, choosing about 6-8 problems a day. It was rigorous. Extremely. What page are you on? We did Discovering Math 7A and switched to Foerster's. We are finding Foerster's to be a wonderful mix of clear teaching and deep thinking. I think you will find this as you progress. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[momofgreatones]

How much mom involvement is needed with Foerster's? Julie, how much does a mom need to be able to help her child through the text? In other words, do I need to be really well versed in math myself and understand algebra well in order for my child to use Foerster's? I haven't done algebra since college and it was difficult for me then.

I have always stayed at a distance from my kids' upper math, but I do want my children to have a good math foundation so I am making myself focus on it lately to make sure everyone is on the right track.

Thanks!

[mamanlait]

Oh, Julie, you may have opened a can of worms in responding. I have several questions! How are you scheduling the text? Are you having your son complete all of the assignments or are you assigning odds/evens? Are you basing a days work on time (like 45 min)? Are you teaching the lessons on a white board or are you talking through each lesson from the text (like with Singapore's textbook)? I'm assuming that even if he's doing most of the book independently, you are still working through the text with him so that you can help when questions arise. I have previewed the book and really love the many word problems but I can see that this might be a challenge for me unless I work through the text with my daughter.

My dd will be starting this in August and I'm really trying to get my footing before we begin. I'm like The Little Engine That Could...I know we can do it (I think I can, I think I can) but I need a little hand holding.

Can you help us visualize the math block for high school?!

[Carrie]

Julie (and others who asked questions in this thread),

We are currently over halfway through the Foerser's Algebra with our second oldest son, and I want to assure you that you will have no need to add anything to it! It is a very solid, very well-written text that definitely goes even beyond the word problems that we did in Singapore math when we did DM 1A/1B last year. Plus, the Foerster text does not make leaps like the DM texts did (often leaving us scratching our heads to discover why they did what they did)!

The first few chapters of Foerster are actually pre-algebra, rather than algebra. They are meant to give students a needed foundation prior to moving on to harder concepts, so don't judge the Foerster text until you get a ways beyond the opening few chapters. As you are already aware, math at the high school level is very different from math in elementary/middle school. It requires a shift in thinking (and in teaching) no matter what text you use! I found this when we did VideoText Algebra with our oldest son and now again as we are doing Foerster Algebra with our second son.

As far as the other questions asked in this thread go, I do meet with my son and we read over the examples and discuss them together. Then, there is usually an oral part which we do orally together. Then, I assign him the odd problems only (which is what Foerster actually recommends in his Introduction). We did do all of the story problems for every chapter until chapter 6 or so. Then, we began doing only the odd story problems (as the problems become much more involved). I haven't found the need yet for the Math Without Borders DVDs at this level, however your need will depend upon your comfort level with Algebra. The DVDs are a wonderful teaching tool available as needed. The fully worked Solutions Manual is invaluable at our house!

We usually take 1 hour to do math and are able to complete a lesson daily in that amount of time on most days. Sometimes it is longer. The problem solving sets we spread out over 2 (or even 3 days). We are enjoying Foerster's Algebra I. It is not meant to be a text to hand to your child though. It does require parental oversight and guidance. Truly, any program that says it is self-teaching for math is making quite a claim (in my opinion). Usually most "self-teaching" programs for high school math end up requiring the parent to get involved when the child hits a roadblock later. By then, the parent/teacher is so far out of the loop as far as what the child is learning in math that the parent isn't even able to offer any help (except to consult the answer key). I had this experience with VideoText Algebra (even though I knew I was supposed to watching along with my son and interacting with him daily). Somehow, I lost track of what he was learning and later was unable to help him without the answer key.

This is why I think it is a good goal going in to high school level math to spend time with your child daily on this important subject. With Foerster Algebra I, I go through and discuss the provided examples with my son, go over the oral examples, and make sure my child gets started right. We keep the Solutions Manual close at hand, and I check in with him as he works. Some days he needs me more than other days.

In the Introduction to the World Geography guide, we do give an overview of how to pace Foerster Algebra I. The only change I've made to the pacing I mentioned there is to now go to doing only the odds of the story problems now as well.
Link (scroll down to the math portion for the pacing): http://www.heartofdakota.com/pdf/wg-overview.pdf

Foerster's Algebra I is often considered honors level; however, your child won't have to be a math whiz to use it, because everything is explained so well! I've never seen an Algebra text with more thorough step-by-step examples. It truly was a relief to go to Foerster after DM 1A/1B for my math-loving son for this very fact. While we originally loved DM, by the time we were close to finishing 1B we had reached a frustration point. Our lessons were taking much more than 1 hour, and I was spending more and more time helping my child through every part of the lesson. We were quickly becoming burned out on math, when it had previously been a favorite subject. While Foerster's Algebra I is by no means easy, it does very solidly teach each concept. This keeps frustration at a minimum. The examples are outstanding and the word problems really get students thinking. I highly recommend this text! Just be prepared to go through the examples with your child on most days and help as needed as your child works.

I will say that for students who have a very difficult time with math, No-Nonsense Algebra would be a better choice. This is why we offer several Algebra recommendations at HOD to help families find the one that fits their child best.

Blessings,
Carrie

[StillJulie]

Thank you for the reassurance! I really appreciate it. We've only just finished chapter one, so we aren't far into it at all yet.

I don't think I have any more to add than what Carrie has already said (thanks, Carrie!).

[Nealewill]

Well, Carrie, after reading your very thorough review, I am now plan to spend the next year researching and seeking out our pre-Algebra curriculum, of which I plan to begin my research with the convention. I actually had always planned to use VideoText and was so excited to see them listed as one of the math programs you recommended for high school. I had never seen Foerser's Algebra program. Now, I am going to have to do some research. My daughter (even though she is only 9) will be starting pre-algebra next year. Decisions, decisions.