Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

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jhperry
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Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by jhperry » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:14 pm

We are really struggling with Write with the Best. I like the concept of using well-written literature to learn how to write but these examples are so advanced my kiddos feel defeated when trying to write their own. They call it Write with the Worst :( . I don't want them to hate writing, yet I know some things do just take more effort to learn. Also, I'm struggling with knowing how much to help them. If I help too little, I don't feel the end result would be considered good writing. If I help too much, it seems like my piece of work rather than their own. Obviously, I realize theirs is not supposed to be as well-written as Dickens or Defoe but am just not sure how much to correct and when to just let it be theirs. Make sense?

Also, my 10 year old son does well with the written narrations. He can read the material once, answer the questions in the Guide, and put it in his own words easily. My almost 9 year old (birthday next week) daughter basically uses the questions in the teachers guide as her guide in writing her narration. She turns the question into a sentence and then moves on to the next question, using the text as she needs it to find the answers and help with spelling. I'm thinking this is ok for her age but wanted to be sure.
Jamie
*Mom to Ds 14, Dd 12, Dd 10, and Ds 5
*Enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, DITHOR, CTC, RtoR, Rev2Rev & MTMM

Tidbits of Learning
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by Tidbits of Learning » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:11 pm

We used Write with the Best with my girls in CTC and it was not a good fit for us. She also recommends Igniting your writing and that is what I plan to use with my son when we go through CTC. He has dyslexia/dysgraphia and I am hoping it will be a better fit for him. You could look into it if Write with the Best is not working for you. HOD sells it. I think you have to look at the language arts recommendations from the DITHOR page to find it.
2020-2021
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LynnH
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by LynnH » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:15 pm

My ds enjoyed Write with The Best 1 and at the time he did get easily overwhelmed, but he did not get overwhelmed by Write with the Best. Here is how I approached it. First I kept in mind that this was really his first structured writing program. I talked to my friend who had taught honors junior high English and she said I should be helping and guiding still quite a bit at this point, especially early in the year. I tended to feel the same way you did and I would think I was giving too much input. She reminded me I was teaching him writing and that he wouldn't learn the different ways to approach things unless I guided him. She said if he was in her classroom he would turn in a rough draft and then she would mark things up giving lots of suggestions and he would do 1 maybe 2 revisions. Since I was right there with him she said I should help him as he went if he was struggling. I did give suggestions for rephrasing, and helped him come up with better words etc. As the year went on I was able to give a little less help, but I think Carrie has it as an S box because we are supposed to help as needed. Also make sure you aren't making them find all the nouns, adjectives etc. Carrie recommends that they just find some of them.

As far as the written narration goes I think that sounds fine for that age again for the beginning of the guide, but I would encourage her to start adding a little more personality to it as she gets further along. Maybe go over the written narration guidelines for the student with her each week before she starts.
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my3sons
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by my3sons » Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:15 pm

We have done WWTB several times now, once with our oldest ds and now again with our middle ds. It is a challenging writing program that is well worth completing. I partnered with my dc the most in 2 phases of WWTB. The first phase being the prewriting/planning stage. Helping my dc choosse a topic they knew quite a bit about, and helping them map out a structure and sequence for their writing that makes sense were very important. They were not good at this at first especially, and my discretion and guidance was really needed for them to be successful. The next phase, where they used their plan to actually do the writing of their piece, was a phase I helped less. This was done more independently. In fact, I often reviewed their prewriting/planning notes we'd done (all following WWTB's mini-lessons), and then I'd purposely leave the room for a bit and leave them alone with their thoughts to craft their writing piece. Their first attempts were pretty factual and not all that flashy, but due to our good planning previously, they made good sense, had a good sequence, stuck to the topic, and had some interesting parts.

The editing phase was the next part that I helped quite a bit. I had them read aloud their writing with pencil in hand, so they could change, add, edit portions that didn't make sense or could be worded better. Their changes were minimal at first. After helping make rudimentary changes that were obviously necessary (i.e. grammatical, spelling, etc.), I then used the WWTB guidelines to help them add in any other missing elements. I didn't do this like they 'messed it up,' but more like - 'hey, this is a great piece of writing, now let's add some flash to it.' :D I challenged them to use 3 big vocabulary impress me kind of words somewhere in their writing to sound like the 'pros' they were trying to emulate. They got better and better at this. Once they figured out I was going to help them but then also hold them to the standards set forth in WWTB, they tried to do these things earlier on so there wouldn't be so much to do later. Riley, who I am working with now and in the final month of CTC, will often tell me he did this, and this, and this, and this... just like the WWTB told him to do. :lol: He'll point out his impress me words too. Sometimes they are impressive, sometimes not. :wink: But, they are a vast improvement! :D Not every assignment clicks with every student, but all are excellent lessons to learn and skills to hone. :D

I really like LynnH's advice, and I think her friend's comments about helping dc along with their writing are right on track. Imagine how different these lessons could be if your dc viewed you as partnering with them over some cups of hot cocoa and whipped cream? :D Taking on the persona of the encourager and partner by offering guidance is such a great role to be in - one that you will enjoy and one that they will come to appreciate given time. :wink: I'd not switch programs as WWTB is an excellent writing program, and as WWTB 2 is another excellent writing program planned in MTMM. Also, I agree with Tidbits of Learing that Igniting your Writing is a good writing program. I did want to mention that HOD chose "Igniting Your Writing" for those families that are not doing a core guide and needing a general writing program to partner with DITHOR. The writing programs for each core guide are chosen carefully for that guide's age range and within a hierarchy of skills from guide to guide, as well as to keep in balance the other LA skills written into each individual guide. It's nice to keep that carefully planned balance intact. :D

As far as the written narrations, I noticed that dd is 8 and turning 9 yo soon. She'll be in the target age range for CTC very soon, but even then on the very young end of it. I think it is completely fine for her to answer the questions to compile her written narrations at this point. As LynnH said, helping her add some creativity to them and also helping her begin to add transitional words to help it flow and not be choppy will be good goals eventually. My oldest ds was 9 yo when he did CTC, and he did the same thing as your dd. He is a wonderful written narration writer today in his WG guide, so take heart! Creativity will come. :wink: For your ds's written narrations, it sounds like he is doing just fine. I hope something here helps!

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

countrymom
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by countrymom » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:28 am

I think this should be a sticky post. My 8 yr old is in Preparing and the written narrations and poetry writing have been a new challenge for him, not one he can't handle, but certainly a challenge. I have wondered if I was helping too much with the poetry, but now I am assured that I am not. I think many of us are not quite sure how to guide our children with the skill of writing. HOD has such a wonderful writing progression, but sometimes the teachers need to be taught :D
Countrymom
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LynnH
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by LynnH » Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:45 am

I will also mention as a side note that the friend I mentioned is getting ready to withdraw her own son from ps and she has been so impressed with HOD as I have shared aspects of it through the years, especially the writing and grammar programs, that she will be using CTC with her own son.
Mom to:
dd 22 college graduate and employed as an Intervention Specialist
ds 18 US2, Loved Preparing, CTC , RTR , Rev to Rev, MTMM ,WG, WH and US1
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jhperry
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by jhperry » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:19 am

Thanks so much ladies!! It's such a blessing to be able to post a concern and get helpful feedback so quickly! I think I need to relax a bit (or a lot), continue guiding and helping them out, and realize this is a journey we will be on for a long time. I will try the different phases approach, helping mainly in the prewriting/planning and then editing phase. I love the "impress me" words and will definitely try that! Part of the problem is my older two have limited imaginations when it comes to writing, having to create or make up a character, story, etc. is like torture to them! Now I don't think it will be a problem at all for my younger two...they are wired so differently. But, we will endure and hopefully see the fruit one day. :)

Thanks again for the helpful advice and good reminders!
Jamie
*Mom to Ds 14, Dd 12, Dd 10, and Ds 5
*Enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, DITHOR, CTC, RtoR, Rev2Rev & MTMM

jhperry
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by jhperry » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:06 pm

Well, I had decided to keep trying WWTB, using a slightly different approach with my two in CTC. My son has done well. I feel like his writing has improved and he is getting used to the process and not getting frustrated along the way. My daughter (9 in November) still really struggles. She burst into tears today (very unusual for this child) having to write a plot in the fable writing unit. I really think having to create a moral lesson, animal characters, dialogue, plot, etc. is just too much for her right now. Even with lots of guidance and encouragement, we are just not getting anywhere...except for me basically writing the sentences for her. :(

I plan to continue WWTB with my son but not with my daughter. My question is should I just stop a writing program for now and focus on her written narrations (which are improving) and the writing in grammar...and then see if she is ready for the writing program scheduled for RestoRef? Or to begin a new writing program, possible Igniting your Writing, and continue on through the summer? Or any other suggestions??
Jamie
*Mom to Ds 14, Dd 12, Dd 10, and Ds 5
*Enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, DITHOR, CTC, RtoR, Rev2Rev & MTMM

Nealewill
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by Nealewill » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:16 pm

If it were me personally, I would probably start her in Ignite the Write and see how it goes.
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MomtoJGJE
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by MomtoJGJE » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:23 am

We had to stop Write with the Best with Jayden. She really struggles with English and grammar in general. So adding in Write with the Best was just not working. She was in tears daily (well, whenever we had to do WWB) even when we were working together. She couldn't pick out nouns, verbs, etc. So that made all of it a struggle. We put it on the back burner for now until she gets stronger with English in general. It's hard to write well when you can't pick out basic parts of speech in a text.

She does well with narrations, but each guide steps it up a bit from the previous one. She was writing just the answers to the questions as her narration as well. But a few weeks ago I told her it was time to move up a bit. So I told her to pick one or two questions that were about the same thing and what she enjoyed best and work from there. Add in her own words and sentences. Make a topic sentence from one of the questions and write about just that. So her writing has gone back a bit from well crafted sentences to occasionally short choppy sentences, but the paragraph actually flows well and stays on topic. It's also half her words and half the book/author's words, which sounds much better than just answers to questions written down in the order they are asked ;)

I taught her how to do an outline, at least mentally, to figure out what she's writing about in her narration. So I'm hoping that this helps a bit when we come back to WWB in a month or two.

my3sons
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by my3sons » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:46 pm

I am wondering if the rest of the writing in CTC is too much for dd? She is on the very youngest end of the age range, and in CTC that can be difficult. I know with my ds Riley, we had to slow down to half-speed at the start of CTC for quite awhile - even though he'd done all of the HOD guides before that, and even though he was a strong reader and writer. He just was young and needed time to grow into it. :wink: The last half of CTC was amazing for him! Such growth - and slowing it down for awhile helped to enjoy it all from start to finish (and me too). :D Would it be possible for half-speed CTC to work? Especially if ds is also feeling some stress about it? You may really find this would give just enough time needed for things to flow well. Or, another thought to ponder - I am thinking that if jumping in and helping her as much as you can is not making a big enough difference in moving her along for her to have success that possibly a younger placement would be more fitting. Could she possibly join younger sister in whatever HOD guide she is doing now? The writing increases in RTR and then in RevtoRev especially, so that is something to consider down the road for dd and ds too. Those are just a few ideas - but what do you think?

In Christ,
Julie
Enjoyed LHTH to USII
Currently using USI
Wife to Rich for 28 years
Mother to 3 sons, ages 23, 20, and 16
Sister to Carrie

jhperry
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by jhperry » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:08 pm

Oh, she is really doing well with the rest of CTC!! We have loved it and they have both learned so much!! WWTB is really the only thing she is struggling with. She does well in R&S 4 too, can easily identify subjects and verbs and does the writing exercises with ease. I really just think she needs a different writing approach, something that will give a little more guidance and build her confidence in that area.

My ds is doing fantastic with CTC, there is really no way I would want to slow him down. My other dd is in Beyond (a perfect fit for her!) so that wouldn't work either. My older two love doing school together and it really works beautifully for us.

I'm still wondering about Igniting your Writing though...can't find much info or any reviews about it. The link on the Language Arts Recommendation page doesn't work for me?
Jamie
*Mom to Ds 14, Dd 12, Dd 10, and Ds 5
*Enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, DITHOR, CTC, RtoR, Rev2Rev & MTMM

jhperry
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by jhperry » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:11 am

Kalle - Oh, thank you! I will check it out.
Jamie
*Mom to Ds 14, Dd 12, Dd 10, and Ds 5
*Enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, DITHOR, CTC, RtoR, Rev2Rev & MTMM

Carrie
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by Carrie » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:19 pm

Jamie,

You've already received much excellent advice, so I will just pop-in to share a couple of thoughts. First off, the fact that your daughter just turned 9 in November will make a huge difference in her readiness for WWTB. Even if she is able to do the rest of the copywork and written narration style writing throughout CTC, you'll find that the higher level writing required in WWTB works best for kiddos who are at least 9 (and older than 9 is even better) when they start CTC. So, it isn't super surprising that WWTB is a challenge for her. I do think as she progresses through the rest of the HOD guides that if she is just under or barely at the youngest age range of each guide, she may have some struggles with the writing programs to come in future guides as well (especially at first). This won't mean that she needs to change writing programs, as each HOD guide already utilizes various writing programs and writing approaches. Instead, it means she will need more help and more time to complete the writing assignments in each of the coming guides. So, it will be something for you to be aware of and plan to devote extra time and help for in future guides. :wink:

So, at this point if she is thriving in the rest of CTC and is able to all that is scheduled in the guide, then I would move her to Igniting Your Writing (simply because she will need to have some formal writing instruction in order to be able to work toward the writing program scheduled within RTR). WWTB I covers descriptive writing. Igniting Your Writing I also covers descriptive writing in a lower key way. So, subbing Igniting Your Writing I for WWTB I does make sense for your particular child. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone as an even switch as WWTB I is more challenging in some areas. However, I think it would efficiently solve the problems you are seeing simply due to the age of your daughter. :D

In the mean time, feel good about the success your kiddos are having as they are enjoying in CTC! All students will have areas of strength and areas of struggle. Some struggles are due to age, others are due to maturity, and still others are just due to unique personalities and areas of gifting. PTL that the rest of CTC is fitting them well! :D

Blessings,
Carrie

jhperry
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Re: Help with CTC - Write With The Best & Written Narrations

Post by jhperry » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:52 pm

Carrie, thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts! I just placed my order and am looking forward to working through Igniting Your Writing with her. I looked at the sample pages and I think it will be something we can handle. I also think doing that with her one-on-one (since I plan to keep my son in WWTB) may be of great benefit and something I may plan on with future writing programs. Thank you for the encouragement and reminder that struggles are normal :wink: .
Jamie
*Mom to Ds 14, Dd 12, Dd 10, and Ds 5
*Enjoyed LHFHG, BLHFHG, Bigger, Preparing, DITHOR, CTC, RtoR, Rev2Rev & MTMM

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