A question about placement, spelling, and LDs

[kayrenee]

My 5th grader (according to where she'd be in public school) is behind due to a speech disorder and, I believe, dyslexia. I've read several threads here about the issues of concern, and I've printed, studied, and circled boxes on the placement chart. I think she *could* do Preparing, and I had several boxes under Preparing circled, but I also had a lot of Bigger boxes circled (about half and half). I think it would be a challenge for her in Preparing, especially in the beginning. I know that they're supposed to be somewhat challenged in the beginning, but I'm thinking that due to her difficulties with writing, spelling, and abstract concepts, it would be better to start her in Bigger. (Again. We did this two years ago and I gave up too soon because I didn't understand how it's supposed to work and I wasn't patient enough. We should've kept going at half speed.) We also need to develop the habit of consistency, and I think that jumping straight into four hours worth of work every single day would be overwhelming to her.

Anyway, the only concern I have about Bigger is the spelling. When I look through the spelling lists in Beyond, I think that's where she needs to be in that subject. So my questions are:

Should I use Beyond for spelling, and Bigger for everything else? If I do that, won't that mean we'll always be behind in spelling by one guide?

Should I just go ahead and start Bigger as written (including spelling), and the weak spots will eventually work themselves out?

I'm currently doing a 2nd grade phonics workbook with her in lieu of spelling. Should I keep doing that?

Any other suggestions? I have all three TMs (Beyond, Bigger, and Preparing), so I don't have to buy anything to make this happen. I had bought the Beyond TM several months ago JUST for the language arts, but when I looked through it this weekend, I realized that she's made enough progress over the past few months that she doesn't need it anymore! Except for possibly spelling.

What should I do?

Also, since she places into Preparing for grammar, what would you do about that if using Bigger for everything else? Specifically, here's how the placement chart looks after circling:

Reading -- Bigger *or* Preparing (She could do DITHOR, I think, which I don't own yet. Some of those activities look fun!)

Writing -- Bigger, because while she *could* do what's listed for Preparing, I think she'd frustrated by both the quantity and the work itself. And she's begun cursive, but still struggles with many of the connections, some of the letters, and proper spacing.

Grammar -- Preparing

Math -- I need to give her the placement test.

Bible, History, and Science -- She could *do* Preparing, but because of the amount of work in it, I think it would be better to keep her in Bigger due to needing to develop the habit of consistency, as well as improving her narration skills.

Storytime -- The description under Preparing sounds more abstract, while the description under Bigger sounds like it's still somewhat tangible. I think she could use some time doing this subject in Bigger for the skill-building and confidence.

Poetry/Rhymes -- Same as above. She LOVES poetry, and therefore, I think the way poetry is used in Bigger to help make history connections will be very beneficial to her. Again, it seems more "tangible".

Since there's no box for Spelling, this is the main area where I'm left a little confused. Help?

[LovingJesus]

Hi!

I can take a few of the questions, but others will need to chime in for the others.

If you look at the back of the TMs (I only know this from currently using them) you will find:
Beyond - spelling list you have looked at and think looks right.

Bigger - The same spelling list from Beyond
- Dictation 2 level

Preparing - Dictation 2 Level
- Dictation 3 level
- Dictation 4 level I think

So you could use the Beyond spelling list in the Bigger TM and then the Dictation level 2 next year, or when she is ready, in Preparing. Carrie puts the different levels in the guides, which I find very helpful for spelling.

Grammar:
My ds 8 did R&S English for 2nd grade last year so he is doing level 3 this year with Bigger. I use the TM to remind me to do it, but not the lesson numbers. Preparing TM lists both R&S English 4 and English 3 or your own grammar program. So although my ds8 placed into grammar for Preparing I put him in Bigger for some of the same reasons you are mentioning. Next year the Preparing TM will list his lessons for English 4.

Coming from MFW I highly recommend half speed for awhile with the increased skill building, narrations, drawing, painting, reading, etc. I ran aground coming from MFW my first time too. The switch though has been fabulous and so good for our family. Carrie suggests giving it 3 months to get a handle on HOD.

Blessings for your decision!

[my3sons]

Hello Kayrenee - LovingJesus had some great answers to some of your questions here already! I will try to help as well. Thank you for sharing about your dd with the placement chart in mind - that really does help. From what you have shared here, I agree that Bigger Hearts sounds like a good overall placement for your dd. Bigger Hearts really is such a partnering with our dc year - such a good year for working alongside them. I'd be glad for you to be able to enjoy that with your dd!

As LovingJesus shared, Spelling List 2 from Beyond is the same as the spelling list included in Bigger Hearts. Beyond Little Hearts does also have Spelling List 1 that is easier than Spelling List 2, but as I am looking at the specifics of your dd's placement that you shared below (i.e. doing 2nd grade phonics workbook, able to do Bigger Hearts writing or possibly PHFHG's writing, starting cursive, etc.), I think she'd do just fine with Spelling List 2 in Bigger Hearts. Doing the LA plans on Days 1-4 with Spelling List 2, along with finishing out your 2nd grade phonics workbook, would be a nice combination. The activities/lessons planned in the LA box for Spelling List 2 did a super job of helping our dc begin dictation successfully, so I'd not do the phonics workbook in place of that as it won't have the same kind of prep in place for the coming dictation.

I also think you and your dd would really enjoy "Drawn into the Heart of Reading 2/3" together. I had to smile at your comment that 'some of the activities look fun' - you are so right! They are! I wish I could figure out how to load a video on here. I just - as in 1 hour ago - recorded our sons doing a puppet play for Riley's DITHOR project. It was a blast! Not to get off track, but here's a picture...


For grammar, you could just do about a lesson a day of R & S English 3, and you'd finish that within a year. I hope that helps, but keep asking questions until you are set. It is my prayer that you and your dd would truly enjoy Bigger Hearts together.

In Christ,
Julie

[kayrenee]

Thank you, ladies. Sorry I couldn't get back to this thread before. Busy weekend!

I hadn't realized that List 2 of Beyond is also in Bigger. I hadn't even checked yet, or if I had, I might not have recognized that they were the same words, so I'm glad y'all mentioned it! Very helpful.

We started Bigger today. We still had some narration issues with the Eggleston book (as we did before), but I could tell that she understood more of the "story" now than she did two years ago. She does remember who Columbus was, but didn't remember a lot of the details, so we just read it and discussed it again. She knows the geography part of it, so that was fine.

The process of looking up "persistence" and applying it to the verses in Proverbs was a hard one for her, but we talked through it, and I think she'll catch on eventually. We haven't done Bible study quite that way before, so this is definitely a new skill.

She remembered the science lesson quite well from two years ago! (Science is her "thing"... she really enjoys it.)

She's beyond the math lesson assigned, and I don't think I have 3A (I still haven't given her the placement test... need to do that), so we just did our next lesson in R&S as usual.

The spelling list for Unit 1 was easy for her. We didn't get to the dictation exercise because we ran out of time and had to leave the house. (Three hours of dance this afternoon!) I'll try to do that this evening. I plan to write it out on the white board first, and then go from there.

She REALLY got into the poetry lesson. She took the book from me and demonstrated it with her own motions and facial expressions for her sisters. She's quite the drama queen.

I chose a biography of Helen Keller for Storytime because she and her sister's dance performance next summer is going to be on the life of Helen Keller, so I thought that would be a good choice for discussing what a biography is. Their performance, after all, will be a biography, too.

I realized I don't have "Hymns for a Kid's Heart" CD. I'd thought I did, but apparently I have two copies of "Hide 'Em in Your Heart" instead.

For grammar, I'm having her finish the book she's doing right now, and then switch to R&S. We'll probably be about halfway through the year when that happens, but I think she'll be ready for the 4th grade book at that point.

All in all it was a good morning! Oh, she also noticed that it says on the front cover that it's says for it's for ages 7-9, and asked me when she can "bust out of this book" because she's too old for it. I reassured her that on the website, it says it's also for ages 10-11 with extensions. I expected her to ask me what "extensions" are, but she didn't. She seemed fine with that answer.

But.... I wonder if she could be ready for Preparing after all? Most of what we did today was easy, but that could just be because we did this unit two years ago.

[MelInKansas]

Sounds like a great first day! Trust me it will get more difficult, and with the notebooking for science and notebooking for History (which thankfully are not on the same day of the week) she will probably feel the challenge soon. It's good that she felt so good about how she did in it. Vocab was a struggle for my DD when we started Bigger too. It's just not easy to do.

You said that you did Spelling List 1 but not dictation... you are supposed to do either the spelling list or the dictation, not both. The spelling lists seem easy to start, by unit 14 or so they start getting harder so stick with it.

Plus I would say if you see her making better connections with the history than before, she's proably really ready for it! How many units did you do last time when you started it?

In your placement here is some other things to consider: Grammar, Math, Reading, Spelling are separate from the history and Bible readings so you can do those at any level. So the grammar she is ready for you can easily do instead, you would just need to make up your own schedule, do 2 pages a day or something like that, however R&S is laid out at that level. Math is the same thing, once they get to 3A you use the textbook with the workbook and set your own pace. The pace is scheduled in the guide for those kids who are at that level, but many people use a different math program, or are at a different level.

So her abilities in narration and writing are what are key for placement. You really want to place her well where those two areas will be challenging but not too difficult. If she's remembering well what you did before, you could skip to where you left off.

[LovingJesus]

So her abilities in narration and writing are what are key for placement. You really want to place her well where those two areas will be challenging but not too difficult.

Congratulations on a Great First Day!

I agree with MeInKansas. The writing and narration are key to good placement. Grammar, math, and spelling or dictation can be moved up and down.

I am doing both Bigger and Preparing right now so I am going to try to lay out the differences aside from R&S and math levels:

* Preparing has two more boxes each day than Bigger so it takes approximately 45 minutes longer. Carrie moves the Music box in Bigger into the Bible Study box in Preparing with the Bible study. She combines the LA and reading boxes in Bigger into one LA box in Preparing. Then she adds an Independent Study Box that has an 'I' for the student to do on their own. This box is various things, such as the following: Copying a paragraph written in cursive in cursive from Draw and Write through History, Drawing a Picture from Draw and Write through History, reading a book on their own and narrating it, activities, etc. For a list of the books they read on their own you would look at the independent books sold on the Preparing Site and those titles in the book shop show the reading levels. For example Pedro's Journal is one of them and I think it is a 5.3 reading level approximately. The other independent box with an 'I' in Preparing is science. This is different from Bigger where mom helps them do all of the science and reads it to them. For the 'I' science in Preparing they do the following: one day read some pages, narrate, and write out answers to 5 questions that they find the answers for in the book. Another day is writing up a lab write-up and doing an experiment. A third day is reading and narrating. A fourth day is copying a Bible verse in cursive, drawing a picture from the book, and copying a paragraph from the book in cursive. There is also one extra history type box that has research in it one day. The history boxes are set up a bit differently so more time is spent doing history, which I like.

* Note booking in Bigger is once a week for history doing a very detailed mapping, drawing, following directions, etc. Note booking in Preparing for history is once a week writing a 3 - 5 sentence narration.

*Note booking in Bigger for science is a once a week copying of a Bible verse and doing drawing. Bigger science also has a once a week experiment lab write up. Two days are having science read to them and them narrating. One day is an experiment without a lab write up. Preparing science I explained above.

*The vocabulary in Bigger is 1 - 3 words a week and the vocabulary in Preparing is 3 - 5 words a week. This includes copying the word, looking it up in a dictionary, copying the definition, writing an original sentence with the word, and drawing a picture. I look it as 1 word a week in the beginning of Bigger, 2 by the middle, 3 by the end to start Preparing with 3, 4 by the middle of Preparing, and 5 by the end of Preparing. I like to increase their work gradually over the year in areas I can. Similarly I look at Preparing as starting with 3 sentence written narrations, 4 by the middle, and a 5 sentence one by the end. I do require these written narrations to follow paragraph format.

*My son in Preparing is doing R&S 4 and it does have more writing than R&S 3 that my Bigger son is doing.

*Over all, Preparing is more writing and more narration and more connections being made. It just depends what she is ready for.

I think the main things needed for Preparing is:
ready to copy paragraphs in cursive, ready to write at least a 3 sentence narration, strong reading abilities, and the emotional maturity to sit and do 3 1/2 - 4 hours of focused work a day.

I hope this helps in your decision making. I am sure I forgot things, and maybe another mom can fill those in.

Congratulations!