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Yes, another high school question. Lol

I understand that the resource choices for the high school guides were chosen so that they are easily graded. I am really torn between doing the younger guides for high school or just jumping into the high school guides as written. My son is enrolled in a virtual public school this year. His skills have increased in many ways and some of the material was much more challenging than I had expected. He is smart and always rises to learn what is given to him. In fact, he almost does better when the material is hard for him because he enjoys the challenge. He is still having the same issues with time management and dilligence. If he is interested in a subject, he spends way too much time doing his work, and if he is not interested in a subject, he will put it off and try to avoid doing it. I expect this will be the case no matter what guide we choose. I intend to alter the guides a little and allow him to type many of the writing assignments, because that is a major source of trouble for him. He does great at oral narrations and the various written reports he has done throughout the past few years. I bought R&S 7 for him and there are a few topics he will need guidance with, but I think he will be fine with that. Math he is working on algebra now. He has done a lot of volunteer work in the past and is anxious to get a job. He has his sights on being a physicist, although I have to admit I am just hoping he can have the dedication to make it through high school.

So, I said all that to say...how does grading work with the younger guides for high school? I have never done grades, but I understand for the transcript I will need to begin. I have heard of rubrics, but I dont know if I would have the ability to judge his work...

I guess if anyone has any help with placement, I could use some help there too.
High school is just so scary for me and I need all the hand holding I can get!

Thanks so much,
Mercy

Hi Mercy! Thanks for sharing about your young teenage ds - that helps so much. I can understand your thoughts on grading, but I really do think that this can be done fairly easily with the younger guides as well as the older guides. Before talking specifics about grading, I think the first thing we could try to focus on is ds's placement (as the grading suggestions may be different based on which guide he ends up doing). So, and you probably saw this one coming , I am going to ask you to check out the placement chart. If you could please look carefully at the first page of the placement chart especially, and then also the next pages, and share some specifics about your ds. A few things you shared so far make me think that the younger HOD guides would be a wonderful way to work through high school with your ds, but you will know better. The amount of writing increases greatly in each guide, as does the reading. While ds can certainly type some things, other things will need to be written and therefore are a consideration to take into account when considering placement. Likewise, time management skills and diligence to task completion will be a consideration in placement. Each guide's time requirements go up, as do the amount of tasks. Ds coming from a virtual school as opposed to having completed previous HOD guides will make a difference as well.

The Hearts for Him Through Time series of guides, from CTC to MTMM, are meaty. I would guess ds could place in the upper range of those guides and be challenged enough, yet be able to enjoy his high school years as well. If you get the chance to look at the RevtoRev and MTMM columns with ds in mind, and share your thoughts about that, that would be sooooo helpful to us in helping you. Don't worry about counting credits for now - we can give specifics that are easy to follow for that. I'd shoot for a placement that ds fits in squarely according to the placement chart, rather than trying to overly challenge him by placing him in a guide he is not prepared to do right now. Having just proofread the high school placement chart for Carrie, I can say the high school guides will be meaty. If dc have not previously done HOD or something very comparable in skills, younger placement will be a better fit. I hope something here has helped, but I'll check back, and I know other ladies will chime in too once you share a little more!

In Christ,
Julie

Hi Julie,
Thank u for your help. My husband and I both looked it over and it looks like MTMM would be a perfect fit. I dont like the idea of coming in at that place though because it seems harder to count history. If I decide to go with the younger guides, I think I would do rev to rev, just to make it easier. I honestly think he will be fine doing the world geo or the younger guides. I am mostly just concerned with making it simple for him. I dont like having to add in anything and would rather do the guide "as is." I love all of the materials in ALL of HOD, so thats not at all the issue. I trust Carrie's recommendations to beef them up. He just needs it to be straight forward. Anything *I* write in may be a battle. Lol! Ahem. That is my main concern, not that he cannot handle the material...but how much trouble will I have. Time wise, high school is expected to be longer...either way, using extentions or the high school guide is about the same, correct? Also I am looking at my budget...which is very slim...and I am calculating that either way is going to be similar. So, those are all of my thoughts...what do you think?
Thanks so much for your time,
Mercy

Mercy,

Since I am behind in getting the content to our web designer, I thought I'd post the placement chart for the World Geography guide for families to use as they're making decisions. Hopefully, this will help you as you compare it to the placement chart for MTMM.


Placing Your Child in the Right Program
If you are not sure which of our programs best fits your child, use our Program Placement Chart shown below to help you decide. The Placement Chart below is only for our high school level World Geography Guide. If the skills listed below do not describe your child, then move to the placement chart for our guides prior to the World Geography Guide located here: http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

Each of the subjects in the chart are placed in order of importance for correct placement, so consider the first row (AGE) to be more important than the second row (LITERATURE); the second row (LITERATURE) is more important than the third row (WRITING), and so forth.

Program Placement Chart for ​Hearts for Him Through High School:World Geography[/i]
AGE: ​13-15 years old extending to 11th – 12th graders

LITERATURE:​ Ready to independently read and analyze pieces of classic literature; has successfully completed formal literature study equivalent to Drawn into the Heart of Reading Level 6/7/8 including genres studies, literary elements, challenging vocabulary, and deeper thinking; regularly looks beneath the surface of what is read; is prepared to discuss literary analysis, Biblical worldview, and critical thinking questions

WRITING: ​Able to reproduce with few errors paragraph-length dictation passages; writes three to five paragraphs with ease, including the use of complex sentences; can write a 15-20 sentence narration with little difficulty; has had basic, formal instruction in essay-writing and other forms of writing; is ready for deeper instruction in writing various forms of essays (i.e. personal, persuasive, expository, compare/contrast); is ready to write a short research paper

ENGLISH: ​Knows and identifies the 8 parts of speech; has had extensive diagramming practice including phrases and clauses; regularly proofreads for mistakes in grammar, usage, spelling, capitalization, and punctuation in own writing; regularly applies grammar knowledge to produce clearer, more organized writing; has had practice taking notes, outlining, writing reports, and using reference materials

MATH: ​Can analyze and interpret textbook examples and use them to solve new problems; is strengthening abstract thinking skills; can use mental math, reasoning, and computation to solve more challenging problems; can synthesize and apply learned concepts to solve multi-step problems; is ready for Algebra I or above

GEOGRAPHY:​ Regularly reads assigned history texts on his/her own according to a schedule; can independently read and follow extensive written directions well; is an experienced oral narrator; can readily write a 15-20 sentence written narration; is prepared to complete geography-related assignments that require additional written work daily (i.e. copywork, bulleted notes, outlines, video viewing guides, analysis of primary source documents, preparation for Socratic discussions, questions based on Bloom’s Taxonomy, research topics, etc.); has preferably had experience with historical mapping, timeline entries, step-by-step sketching, and history projects (or is prepared to independently complete these things)

Further Consideration for Placing Your Child in the Right Program
If you have completed the first part of our Program Placement Chart and are still not sure if the World Geography Guide fits your child, you can use the additional information shown below to help you decide. Remember that the subjects are placed in order of importance for correct placement, so the first part of the chart that you’ve already read above should be considered much more important to your placement decision. As with the first part of the chart, each of the subjects below are placed in order of importance for correct placement, so consider the first row (BIBLE) to be more important than the second row (SCIENCE).

BIBLE: ​Has had experience with formal Bible study; is ready to develop a deeper faith that is rooted and grounded in God's Word; can follow written directions for a daily quiet time focused on Scripture study, thought-provoking questions, evaluation and application of what was read, memorization of Scripture, and daily prayer time for both the unreached peoples of the world and for personal needs; will keep a prayer journal and read and annotate either Practical Happiness or Stepping Heavenward to focus on becoming a Godly young man or woman

SCIENCE: ​Regularly reads assigned science material on his/her own according to a schedule; can use the text to independently answer questions based upon what was read; is able to internalize vocabulary necessary to the study; has had experience in conducting experiments and recording results using the scientific method; is prepared to conduct classic chemistry and physics experiments and record results within a lab manual; is ready to synthesize scientific information, investigate connections, and draw conclusions between chemistry and physics

WORLD RELIGION & CULTURES: ​Is prepared to read books that correspond with the ​study of world religion and cultures, complete graphic organizers to take notes on what was read, reflect on what was learned, and respond to bookmark prompts targeting higher-level skills (i.e. select lines to quote and comment upon; ask clarifying and probing questions; make connections between text, self, and world; and share observations, reflections, and musings)

LOGIC: ​Ready to read, discuss, and respond to exercises designed to help you logically recognize and identify fallacies (i.e. Red Herring, Ad Hominem, Tu Quoqe, Straw Man, loaded question, equivocation, circular reasoning, either-or, generalization, analogy, propaganda, etc.); learn how to reason with clarity, purpose, and relevance

FOREIGN ​LANGUAGE: Is ready for a gradual, systematic approach to beginning Spanish; is ready to learn new vocabulary, translate practice sentences, practice pronunciation exercises, and listen to Spanish spoken by a native speaker


If the skills listed above do not describe your child, then move to the placement chart for our guides prior to the World Geography Guide located here: http://www.heartofdakota.com/placing-your-child.php

Suggestions and recommendations for using the guides prior to the World Geography Guide for high school can be found on our Message Board here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6571

Blessings,
Carrie

The World Geography information will be great to check out, Mercy! Thanks for sharing these here, Carrie, as others will certainly use this for placement too. Mercy, I was thinking maybe some of these threads may help...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13659&p=97664
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11148

I am heading to bed but will try to add more tomorrow! I will sleep on it. That sometimes gives me better perspective!
In Christ,
Julie

Carrie & Julie,
You both are the best! I thank God for you often. I appreciate the chart so much. That helps a lot! Just glancing over it, there are so many advanced skills listed! Many new and some familiar. I will need to really sit and take a look at each subject and see where he would place best. With a quick look, I think MTMM still would probably be the better fit. I will do a good comparison, but also keeping in mind some of the other things. Doing a guide "as is" for this child I think is key. Time and expenses play a big role for us too. And...ease for ME of being able to feel confident as a teacher of my first high school student! Yikes.
With love and thanksgiving,
Mercy

Mercy,
I will say as I looked at this list I started to panic a little bit due to how advanced some of these skills are, but I have the MTMM guide and I realized that almost all of these are worked on in MTMM. That helped me realize that my ds will be ready for this guide after he completes MTMM as written. Just wanted to throw that out there in case you haven't had a chance to look all the way through the MTMM guide.

Lynn,

Thanks so much for your thoughts! I love seeing your weekly check-ins. Your son seems like such an amazing young man! And he has a great mom too.

I am going to take a closer look at the hs chart this morning when I get a chance. Although I think he probably fits well in MTMM, so far I am just not feeling peace yet. I am going to have my husband look it over with me and continue to pray on this too.

Just wanted to thank you for your input.

Mercy

So glad to be of any help! I could not agree with you more in your comments below! Doing a guide as is is such a help to us as homeschool moms...

Mercy wrote:...Doing a guide "as is" for this child I think is key. Time and expenses play a big role for us too. And...ease for ME of being able to feel confident as a teacher of my first high school student!...

Your comments here resonated with me as a mom of a teenage ds myself...

Mercy wrote:...Anything *I* write in may be a battle. Lol! Ahem. That is my main concern, not that he cannot handle the material...but how much trouble will I have...

I find there is no 'battle of the wills' when we are able to do a guide 'as is.'

To address your question here...

Mercy wrote:Time wise, high school is expected to be longer...either way, using extentions or the high school guide is about the same, correct?...

6 1/2 hours each day is the approximate expected time for the "World Geography" guide when doing all parts as is. 4 1/2 to 5 hours is the approximate time for the MTMM guide when doing all parts as is. Based on this, I would anticipate that the MTMM with extensions may take less time than the WG guide, depending on what you'd add to it.

Here are a few posts more specific about the time the WG will take taking into account individual boxes/skills, as well as the layout of the guide, in case that may help...
Time for Geography guide:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13551

Layout of right and left sides of Geography:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13521

8arrows found these helpful quotes from Carrie in previous threads in regard to the Basic/Ext. Packages for RevtoRev and MTMM for high school...
These two responses from Carrie are why I thought the basic package was optional if you are doing REV2REV (or MTMM) for high school:

Much of the meat of the program is in the Student Notebook, so you wouldn't want to move toward doing the Extensions in place of the Student Notebook. The guide honestly wouldn't work without the Student Notebook

Instead, we would expect a high school student to fully complete all of Rev2Rev and MTMM, and to do it well. The only part you could forego if your child is in the high school range for those guides is the Basic Package (and only if you use the Extension Package could you do this). Instead, to make the Extensions high school worthy, you will want to employ some of the follow-ups suggested in the guide for the Extension Package. These would include oral narrations, written narrations, and some additional notebooking (all of which could be filed in the main Student Notebook).

Blessings,
Carrie

Great responses here! I agree wholeheartedly. In the guides previous to high school, it is advisable to have your child listen in to the Basic Package (or read them himself/herself) and also do the Extension books if he/she is in the Extension range. However, once a child hits the formal high school years (and subjects like math, science, and literature really begin taking a huge chunk of time each day) it makes sense to keep the study of history in balance with the rest of the day.

So, the concern at that age becomes making the study of history high school worthy in depth and content and also in keeping it from overloading the child's day. At that point, the Extension Package becomes key for a high school student, and the Basic Package (while truly wonderful) becomes secondary and even optional in the balance of the day.

Blessings,
Carrie

Carrie also had this to say in general in regard to high school placement, in case this may be helpful...
Placement becomes trickier as a child gets older, because it isn't always as readily apparent where a child fits skill-wise. Maturity also begins to play more of a role in placement, as does independence, and work habits. A child heading into the high school HOD guides will also have to be committed to a longer school day. Each of these areas will play a huge role in a student's success and overall feelings about high school. So, all of these areas have to be weighed. Then, there also begins to be the state requirements and college entrance requirements to be met as students head through their high school years, so all of these areas become a part of weighing correct placement too!

So, I usually end up going back to the placement chart first to gain placement knowledge (paying the most attention to the first page of the chart) with the 3R's heavily in mind. Next, I weigh the science as kiddos are heading into the high school years. After that I begin weighing the other deciding factors: maturity, independence, work habits, commitment to longer days, and state/college requirements. Usually, by that point I have a clearer picture of what the "right" placement for that student might be. Then, I recommend bathing the decision in prayer and waiting on the Lord to see if He confirms the decision.

In the end the decision of whether to use a certain guide or not really comes down to the best placement all around. However, in placement it is very wise not to overlook maturity, work habits, independence, and commitment to a longer school day! If a student is needing extra time in any of the 3R's, I would never bump that child forward past a guide. If a student struggles or is a bit behind in math, I would definitely keep in mind then how much time math will add to a child's day as math gets harder as you go up! This additional time needed to complete math each day, would make the high school guides much longer than we intend. So, I wouldn't bump a child struggling in math forward either. I would also never bump that child forward in the sciences (as the sciences become driven by math skills in high school). If a student did not have strong, independent work habits, or a willingness to commit to longer school days, with an increased work load (then I wouldn't bump that child forward either, or you'll be dragging him/her along for years to come). If a student has health issues or family issues or commitments in many outside areas, I would make sure to balance school accordingly so that it doesn't add additional pressures that would overwhelm the student. I could go on, but you're getting the picture that placement advice is affected by so many personal factors! This makes it impossible to give pat answers.

Finally, here is Carrie's response to the question "Not finishing all the guides, will it bother you?"
...This is a great question, because it is one that so many families will face! I just wanted to share my perspective on this important topic, as I will have experienced this very thing with my own oldest son. I find it interesting that my oldest will not have finished all of our guides. In fact, he is ahead of my writing and misses out on many of the wonderful things we have planned within our guides. Yet, he has benefitted greatly from any of the areas he has been able to use from our guides.

In looking at my next son, who is on the verge of high school right now (and will be a 9th grader this fall), I can honestly say that he has had a richer homeschool path being able to use all of the HOD guides as written. Yet, if he were only going to miss one or even several of the guides and still be able to use HOD, I think I would still say that his education was richer overall than my oldest son's has been without HOD.

This leads me to advise that it is more important to place your students where they are at skill-wise in order for them to truly be successful in HOD, rather than pondering how to fit in all of the guides. If that means leaving off some of the end guides in the HOD line-up, then it does. Their education will still be very rich, and much more balanced, then most of us probably had in our high school education. Plus, the Biblical aspect of the guides will also hopefully lead to a deeper spiritual communion with our Lord and lead to a deeper understanding of His Word (and that is benefit that cannot be measured)! This benefit will deepen from using as many of the guides as possible on your homeschool journey, but also comes from our Lord Himself (meaning there is no set amount of guides that must be completed to this end, because it is our Lord who ultimately equips us)!

This is why, from my perspective, the ending path for each family through HOD may differ. That is actually a good thing, because it means that we are truly looking at kiddos as individuals and charting their course based on their skills, needs, aspirations, and future plans. It also allows us to look at the whole child as part of the family unit and ponder the special circumstances under which he/she is functioning as part of placement. I love that!

So, while it may bother us in our head not to complete all the guides, it may be the better path for the child not to complete all the guides (which we will ultimately know and accept in our heart).

Blessings,
Carrie

I hope I didn't overwhelm you with too much information here, but I thought if any of this could help as you and your dh sit down to discuss this, that it would then be worth referencing. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

Thanks Julie,
I really appreciate your help. I just have a real quick question. You mentioned MTMM would be 4 1/2 to 5 hrs with extentions, but that isnt including any "beef ups" added. I think it will be about the same as wrld geo once I add in extras for economics and science, etc. Plus I am still not sure how I would get the extra .5 history credit. These are all things I am thinking on as I work this through. Am I correct on the time expectations or am I missing something?
Thanks,
Mercy

Mercy wrote:Thanks Julie,
I really appreciate your help. I just have a real quick question. You mentioned MTMM would be 4 1/2 to 5 hrs with extentions, but that isnt including any "beef ups" added. I think it will be about the same as wrld geo once I add in extras for economics and science, etc. Plus I am still not sure how I would get the extra .5 history credit. These are all things I am thinking on as I work this through. Am I correct on the time expectations or am I missing something?
Thanks,
Mercy

Yes, I think you are right. By the time you add in extras for economics and science, as well as the extensions, you are probably going to be closer to the 6 1/2 hour mark. Good thought! I am thinking ds didn't do RevtoRev ever, right? Otherwise, that could be the other .5 credit awarded. Let me think on that one, and I'll ask Carrie too.

In Christ,
Julie

Thanks for your response Julie. The other thing I am thinking too is that he does much better not switching gears too often. He does much better staying on 1 subject longer and really immersing himself into what he is doing. Less transitions and harder material seems like a better route to go. I love HOD soo much I want to find a perfect fit for him. He just seems like he doesnt fit nicely in the box. Lol! Thankfully HOD is so versatile, I think we will get this worked out.

I will check back in later. Just wanted to say thanks!

Mercy

Oh and I forgot to answer your question about rev to rev. No he has not done rev to rev. I love the look of them and would hate for him to miss them, for several reasons. Thats why I was considering that route. I think the biggest reason why I dont feel good about going in that direction is too many extras added in. He doesnt like to feel behind either and the stigma that comes with a lesser guide can hinder his ability to strive forward...regardless of the words of assurance I give him. Awe, the joys and difficulties of raising young men!

Mercy

Hello again,
I had a few minutes this afternoon to go over everything with my husband. I have discussed this with him before, but this time I feel like I had more clarity. After I laid it out to him he told me he appreciates the care and time I am taking to talk with you (and your willingness to help!) to make sure he is placed correctly. He is a great guy! Anyway, his thoughts were very similar to mine. I think after talking with him I have gone back to my original plan, which is to go with the geography guide for several reasons:

1. Having the guide "as is" is important to me.
2. The guide is laid out already for high school, so organizing for credits should be easier.
3. My son will feel more confident that he is capable, since it is not a younger guide. It will boost his morale.

Those are the three top reasons. I understand, by going in this direction, there will probably be gaps that he has missed. I feel sad that he will miss the amazing younger guides. Really sad. I know he would have had a much more through education going through all of the HOD guides. My hope is that we will throw him into the high school guide and he may struggle a little at first to get adjusted, but that in the end he will swim. Obviously this isnt the best way, but I do think in our situation it will work. I figure there are public schoolers everyday in that situation, but I will be by his side helping him along the way to learn.

What do u think? Am I way off base? Anything I am missing that I havent thought through?

I really do appreciate it.
Mercy