I need some advice and help please

[babybear123]

Hello,

I come to you a very frustrated homeschooling mom, to the point of considering public school. My oldest daughter is a very strong willed child. When she does not want to do something it is a very struggling time in our family. She loves God and knows she should try to do her best always. She struggles with trying her best when she does not wish to do something. It is to the point where she has repeatedly pretended not to know the answer to the questions even though she does know the answer. She loves when I read to her and one of my friends recommended your curriculum. We have been using Singapore 1b and just switched to Saxon math because she was struggling. She thinks Saxon is easy and so it has not been much of a struggle. I want her to be challenged. We are also using Ordinary Parents Guide for phonics. She is also doing Spelling Workout A, almost done. We are also using MOH volume 1. We were trying a classical approach but I feel she does not enjoy it , so it is a continuous struggle. I am also not enjoying it, I feel like I am failing at this point. I also have a second daughter that just turned 5 and a 2 1/2 year old. With my 5 1/2 year old we started Early birds Singapore (just the first few lessons). I tried looking at the placement but found I might not be able to combine the girls homeschooling together. I would like your advice. My 5 year old is sounding out letters, just starting and is not yet reading. She can write all capital letters but has not started lowercase. She has a small attention span, still being so young. My oldest is reading really well but if overloaded with too much phonics rules at one time she starts getting things confused. Do you think it would be best to do two separate books or just pick one for both. Do you think this curriculum would be a good choice for our family? I am sorry I know there is so much information, I hope I am not being confusing! I am just very frustrated, we already bought the material for this year but we are to the point if we need to buy more we will be willing to. When we started this journey we knew we would have bad days but I also thought there would be more good days. I want my children to love learning and at this point I feel none of us are. Please any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[mom23]

((((HUGS)))) We all get there sometimes! So sorry things are hard right now. I got to a very frustrated point when my oldest was in Kindergarten, and sent her to public school for 1st and 2nd grades. Let me assure you that public school did not solve our problems! I will have to fully admit that her personality is such that at times she does take instruction more willingly from someone besides her Mom, so her having another teacher did help her learn to read, but the attitude that developed as a result of all those wonderful little "friends"...oh, boy! It didn't encourage deeper parental respect or closer family relationships, to say the least!

I guess, if I'm honest, my best advice and encouragement to you right now might be to remember that we, as parents, have so much to teach our children besides/even more important than academics that I think it's perfectly alright sometimes to set aside the school books for a time and get back to the basics of obedience, respect, character training. Sometimes that's necessary so that your child is able to learn more effectively and school time doesn't become a thing to be dreaded by either one of you. In fact, I guess I'm saying this because I've been becoming increasingly frustrated in my own home in this area and have spent lots of time this week devouring parenting books, blogs, and lots and lots of time in prayer! I've not quite gotten to the point that we've had to set aside the school work yet, but nearly there! The thing I'm realizing is that I've not been requiring immediate or happy obedience from my children. My frustrations are mounting with each repeated instruction, or less than desireable response. I'm going to be working on that!

As far as curriculum...I love Heart of Dakota and I think that every homeschooling family should be using it ; I cannot imagine homeschooling without it. But...it doesn't really sound to me like curriculum issues are at the heart of your frustration. How does she respond to you outside of school time? I'd hate to see you switch to a different curriculum thinking that will solve everything, only to find yourself back to this point of discouragement (and minus quite a bit of money) in a couple of months. Fix what you can before you start something new for school time. If you determine that a different curriculum would really help things (maybe she is just frustrated with the approach to learning, or things being too challenging or not challenging enough?) I'd be curious where it looked like each of your children might have placed for different areas? Often, when you're switching from a different/more classical approach to this more Charlotte Mason type approach it's helpful to have the child placed on the lighter side (i.e. if she's placing between two guides you might choose the lower one) just because it's different skills you're working on and such a different approach to adjust to. So, with that in mind, plus the fact that you can really plug in and customize the reading and math levels for each child, it may be possible to combine them...but, if they're placing very clearly in separate guides with a guide or more in between their placements, it might be better to separate them. I think for you to get better help placement-wise we'd need to know more information on each of their skill levels. How's their ability to sit and listen while you read things aloud? Your younger daughter isn't reading yet, so probably not writing either, but how about your older dd? Where is she at with writing abilities? What guides were you looking at for each of them on the placement chart?

Hang in there!

[babybear123]

Thank you for replying! I think you are right about the character training. Maybe I should take some time off and only focus on the basics and also get myself back to where I need to be. We do have some battles and attitudes during our day but not to the extent we do with school. We still may have issues when she thinks she is right on something and has to be proven to her but it seems it is worse during school. Not because I am not proving to her things but because she just does not want to do it. I am not sure if that makes sense. She does not seem to question me in school but more of just not applying herself. I feel like she does not enjoy it, I guess that is why I was thinking a new curriculum would fix it. I understand what you are saying about the curriculum not a complete fix and it makes sense. She does seem to take instruction better at times from others and that frustrates me too. I think sometimes we are a lot a like and that makes us clash. I have a lot more praying to do! I appreciate you sharing your story with me about your family, thank you!!! I am sorry you are also dealing with frustrations!
I looked back at the placement charts. My 5 year old does know her letter sounds, and can write capital letters but not with lines paper, and we have done 2 math lessons but I feel she is not really ready yet for daily math, and she is able to sit down while I read chapter books. She loves to listen to me read to her, all day if my voice could make it My 7 year old does read beginning readers on her own but still comes to me for some words. She has been starting to study the spelling words on her own. We have been using language lessons and writing with ease so she has started with learning nouns and copying sentences. My 5 year old sits in with language lessons so she is also learning about nouns. My oldest wanted to learn cursive so we did start that this year just going really slow, so she does not get frustrated. She does really well with manuscript is why I thought it was okay to move to cursive since she was so eager. She also would listen to me read to her all day if I could. My 2 1/2 year old son is not ready yet, I was looking at maybe combining him and my 5 year old with Little hands to Heaven. I am wondering if we did decide to switch, should we just go with the Little Hearts for His Glory just to take a step back, but it seems like such a big step back. I wonder if that would help get her ready for the next one? Is it okay to not be so rigid now, could that be part of our problem? My 7 year old turned 7 this September. She just missed the cut off time when we started kindergarten by two weeks. I went by the school cut off when we started school instead of by going by her, I guess. I think that is why I do not want to push my 5 year old because she also has a fall birthday and I do not want to have the same issues with her, if that is why. Thank you again for replying! Your words have helped and anymore guidance you have I would appreciate it! I hope this all makes since, I seem to ramble when I am frustrated and confused

[my3sons]

Hi babybear123, and welcome to the HOD Board! I am also sending a hug your way! Strong willed dc can be a frustration at times, but they often can become the apostle Paul type grown-ups someday, and truly do great things for the Lord!

I agree with mom23 - it sounds like character training is needed, and believe me, we as moms ALL can relate to that! Usually the classical approach plans for parents to add in their own Biblical content and character training helps, which is tough to figure out solo for us as parents (or it would be for ME at least ), and that is one of the many reasons that I think a switch to HOD would be so beneficial. I cannot tell you how much I have been helped along in this area with my dc with HOD's guides. Every guide has helped me work through character issues of the heart with each of my dc, and I think you would find this as much of a comfort as I have. Does it magically make all character concerns disappear? No, but it does help dc constantly be brought back to the heart issues at hand. HOD has helped me share my faith with my dc, and has helped both my dc and me grow in our faith. I've seen growth with each of our dc. They seem to understand more and more with each year how great our God is, and how amazing it is His Son died for us! They start to want to be more and more like Him, and THAT is what changes their character.

One of the things that has helped me work on character with each child the most is to have a private Bible/devotional time with each of them. I'm not super mom - I depend on HOD for this. I simply do the Bible times planned in the guide faithfully, and I make sure that if I have to rush through something in the guide for the day, I never rush through those parts. Each of my dc place in different guides due to their ages and abilities, so this has been easy to do.

This leads me to your 7 yo dd - I think that she would be well placed in Beyond Little Hearts for His Glory. The character training in Beyond is outstanding! Here is what she would be doing for her Bible Study each week with you...

Daily Bible study questions are meant to instill Biblical values by training
children to read and reflect on God’s word. The questions work best
with the King James or NIV version of the Bible. Each unit includes the
following Bible study activities in coordination with the history stories:
*Day 1: introduction and interpretation of the memory verse
*Day 2: personal application of the memory verse
*Day 3: observation of Godly character through devotional reading
*Day 4: practical application of the devotional character trait
*Day 5: exploration of a Bible passage focusing on Godly living

You can see how this plan works beautifully to help us as parents as we try to work through character concerns with our dc! I love this being planned for me. My dc can see it's important enough to be a planned part of their school day with HOD, and they don't feel like I am personally just springing it upon them. The devotional in Beyond, "Morning Bells," is a little book that packs a big punch. It has truly been as beneficial for me as it has for my dc! The devotions are short, and they have an old worldly sound to them, but they speak straight to the heart. There is just something amazing about Frances Ridley Havergal's faith - childlike, yet deep as the ocean. It makes a person want to be just like her and walk with the Lord closely. Here's the description of this part of Beyond...

Devotional Activity
One day in each unit lists a text connection from Morning Bells by
Frances Ridley Havergal. Each devotion is linked to the history theme,
and also emphasizes basic Biblical lessons in an understandable way.
A related narrative, corresponding Scripture verse, and a quote from a
poem or hymn are part of each devotion.

And, there is a Biblical music connection as well - using one of our dc's all-time favorite CD's...

Corresponding Music
Musical selections from Hide ‘Em in Your Heart Volume II by Steve Green
correspond with the Bible memory verses in the program. The
original songs recite the Bible verses using a variety of musical styles.

Also, in Storytime, there is some good character training emphasis for our dc...
*Day 4: relate personally to one Godly character trait, compare
Biblical and book characters, and select one area to improve

Beyond is also a wonderful guide for strong academics! The books are living, interesting, and engaging. The follow-up activities are full of great skills and meaningful follow-ups. The day has a nice balance to it without being too long. It would fit your dd well. She could do the Emerging Reader's Set for her reading, and either finish out your Ordinary Parents'... or simply do "Explode the Code" to have some no frills review of phonics as she reads through the set. Comprehension questions written according to Bloom's Taxonomy, leading questions to help dc begin to develop good oral narration skills, and living books chosen from a nice variety of genres make the Emerging Reader's Set an excellent choice for reading. Dd could also do Spelling List 1 along with the solid skill activities in the LA box, which includes a gentle introduction to grammar once a week as well. She could do the hands-on activities for Singapore 1A/1B planned in the Beyond guide, which lay an excellent foundation for the later mental math in Singapore, as well as being fun to boot! You could just do Beyond 4 days a week and take a little longer to do it if you'd like, saving the 5th day each week for field trips, exploring other interests, or just having time to catch up on things at home.

For your 5 yo and 2 1/2 yo, I love the idea of the two of these little ones enjoying LHTH together! You can have 5 yo start phonics along with it, either with a program you have and would enjoy using, or with "The Reading Lesson" or "Reading Made Easy", which are both excellent phonics programs HOD recommends. You could also have her do a handwriting program, like "A Reason for Handwriting K" and the fine motor skills K books from LHFHG. If you wanted you could do the K math for LHFHG too. Of course, simply doing LHTH as is would be just fine for your 5 yo too.

Doing Beyond and LHTH would be so very manageable. It would be such a relief to focus on 7 yo with Beyond, and truly to take time to hit the heart level of things spiritually with Beyond's assistance! LHTH with your other 2 dc would be plain F-U-N! It would also easy to customize for more LA/math for your 5 yo should you so desire.

Carrie has this to say about older dc that I have found to be true in our home, and that sounds like it may be true in yours...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6155

Also, this thread has been of such a help to me on the harder days of choosing to homeschool...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10632&p=78391#p78391

I hope that something can help here, but what are your thoughts now? This board is full of encouraging ladies who love to help each other! I think you fit right in.

In Christ,
Julie

[pjdobro]

I want to agree too that character training is tough and we've all been there. Hugs! I will say that HOD has really helped me so much along the way with the character training issues. So many of the activities throughout the day have helped us have discussions that have lead us in the right direction. The character training is built into the curriculum so I haven't had to go searching for other solutions.

Another thing about HOD that I have loved along the way is how developmentally appropriate it is. Carrie has designed a program that is the right length of day with a wonderful balance between academics and fun activities that is just right for the suggested age. The activities included all have a purpose as well, so you are not doing countless worksheets or crafts that are pointless. Many other forms of education work, but the Charlotte Mason way (which HOD uses) of keeping the lessons short and sweet really helps develop the habit of attention and keeps the love of learning alive. In reading your first post, I wonder if the academics are overwhelming your dd and if perhaps she is missing the fun in learning. If so, HOD could really help put the fun and love of learning back in your school day.

Obviously I'm a big fan of HOD! Welcome. I pray you find what you are looking for here.

[babybear123]

Thank you ladies!! I really appreciate your help!! I think we are going to switch over to HOD! We are also going to focus on character training until I can pull everything together. I looked on some used homeschool book sites and I saw that they have the two Guides LHTH and BLHFHG but one lady told me she has the previous edition. Is there that much that has changed? I really appreciate you guys, you don't understand what a bless it was to hear your words of wisdom!!

[my3sons]

Revisions to the guide correct any errors (from grammatical to content), update page numbers /plans for books that have been rewritten and published in a different format, and are rewritten with replacement books with new page numbers/plans/activities when books originally written in the plans have gone out of print or are unavailable. I am not sure which edition you have for each of the books, but when getting the Economy Package, you can save enough money that it is worthwhile to have the new guide (especially as you have other dc that will be using them eventually). For example, you save $14 to $16 off your purchase when you get a LHTH package, which really means you get one of the resources for free and an up to date guide to boot. Likewise, you save $18 on the Beyond Economy Package, which about covers 2 of the history books. It is really nice not to worry about page numbers matching, etc. Just thought I'd share as used guides can vary greatly in condition and in changes made, depending on copyright dates! However, that decision is completely up to you. HTH!

In Christ,
Julie

[babybear123]

Thanks for your thoughts Julie So I started looking more closely on placement and I feel my oldest falls closer to the Beyond Little Hearts for his Glory and my 5 year old seem in between Little Hands to Heaven and Little Hearts for His Glory. I am thinking my 2 1/2 year old son might not be ready this year? Should I look at combining my daughters into Little Hearts for His Glory and try my son with LHTH. My 7 year old is still doing phonics but reads pretty well. I know someone mentioned the readers if I used that. I am also thinking of cost, if my 5 year old went into LHFHG and 7 year old into BLHFHG it would cost more and I would be having both guides to use. I guess I am needing more thoughts. I do not want my 5 and 7 year olds not be challenged but then I am thinking maybe I am thinking the classical approach way with pushing to early. Hope this makes sense. I am trying to get things together for my order before to long so we can start back with school. I think I am second guessing myself with my 2 year old and 5 year old in Little Hands to Heaven and my 7 year old in BLHFHG.

[Carrie]

Hello! We're so glad to have you here! The ladies are doing a terrific job of helping you talk through your options.

As we ponder options for your family, one thing that will make a difference is how soon you are planning to make the switch? If you are planning a switch now, then I would lean toward Beyond for your older daughter and LHTH for your 5 year old.

For your 5 year old, I would also add a handwriting workbook from LHFHG (probably A Reason for Writing 'K'). I would also add the Do It Carefully/Finding the Answers workbooks from LHFHG too. Then, you could alternate between doing a handwriting page one day and a fine motor skills page on the next day (from Do It Carefully until that is done and then moving into Finding the Answers after that). In this way, you'd be strengthening your 5 year old's fine motor skills in addition to doing all the activities in LHTH which also work in that direction. I wouldn't add any math for your 5 year old at this point, since you're thinking she's not ready for daily math. I'd just focus on the math in LHTH (which is weekly and has a good scope and sequence). At any point during LHTH, you could begin phonics by just adding to LHTH for your 5 year old. This plan should suit her well.

As far as your 7 year old, who will be heading into Beyond, you would plan to do Beyond as written. To help her enjoy her school day more and to really get a feel for a more Charlotte Mason style education, I would try to stick to just what the plans in Beyond schedule. With this in mind, I'd lean toward switching to doing the spelling lists that are included in the back of Beyond and following the plans for spelling in the Beyond guide. I'd let go of Spelling Workout.

I'd also move away from language lessons and Writing with Ease and just set those aside. Beyond has a gentle once a week grammar/language lesson that works well for a more CM-style education. We also take a CM-style approach to writing with copywork and narrating from good literature setting a strong foundation for future writing. Have no fear though, by the next guide your child will be heading into Rod and Staff English, which is very solid and challenging. As you move through our guides, you will also eventually have a writing program every year, which when paired with Rod and Staff and writing across the curriculum, will have your daughter writing plenty! We just wait to add those types of things until kiddos first have a good grounding in listening to excellent literature, copying from worthy sources with beautiful language, and developing a solid foundation in grammar/usage/punctuation/capitalization first.

It is up to you whether you wish to consider continuing with the cursive. I'd be inclined to set it aside until the following year, however if your little sweetie loves it, you could continue on slowly this year. I would also set aside MOH. While it is wonderful, it is better suited for an older audience. We use MOH III in RTR.

I would also take a look at the Emerging Reader's Set that is scheduled in Beyond's Appendix to see if your daughter could begin to read those. Typically, we like a child to "finish" phonics prior to beginning the Emerging Readers, however OPGTR goes far beyond typical phonics programs and really teaches all the rules far beyond what is really needed. So, you'll have to weigh whether you need to continue on with OPGTR or whether you have completed the main body of phonics and are ready for your child to do the Emerging Readers (following the daily schedule in the Appendix of Beyond which also includes questions and narrating). Or, you could alternate, doing OPGTR two times a week and the Emerging Reader's three times a week. I'd lean toward keeping the entire phonics/emerging reader time slot down to 20-25 min. daily at the most.

Last, you may wish to revisit Singapore 1B, as there are hands-on activities in the Beyond guide that go right along with the workbook lessons. If your daughter was struggling in 1B, then I'd begin by going back through all of the activities in the guide for 1A, doing one or two activities a day and a few corresponding problems on the markerboard. This will be a good review of 1A. Then, I'd do the same for 1B up until you get to where she left off before. At that point, I'd switch to doing a day in a day, following the plans as written. This will help her review and then be more solid as she revisits her problem areas.

If instead, you'd rather use Saxon, you can keep going with it. However, you'll want to keep your math time down to 20-25 min. at this level.

Blessings,
Carrie

[babybear123]

Hi Carrie! Thank you so much for your suggestions, I will be using all of them! I am so excited (it is so awesome to be able to say that) to start this adventure and we should be on track for after Christmas break. Thank you everyone for your help!

[oneblessedmama]

A book I have found to be very helpful is "The Well Trained Heart " by Ray and Donna Reish. It is available through Amazon. I have met her and she is wonderful. My daughter and I clash because we are both control freaks. Donna says children need to know what is going to happen and what you expect of them. I print out a daily check off list for my daughter and let her pick the order that she wants to do them in...along with verbal praise this is working well. Also I have found it worthwhile to spend some one on one undivided attention,along with hugs,kisses and encouragment before school starts. Get as much character training as possible with devotions, books, movies and the most powerful ...your example. No matter the curriculum or the age, ALWAYS start with Bible, devotions, character study and prayer. The devil will fight you however he can, always knowing which buttons to push. The better you do, the stronger he will fight--so take that as a good sign. Be confident, pray often. Don't forget to have fun!

[babybear123]

Thanks oneblessedmama, for the advice! I have also placed that in my amazon cart You guys are so awesome, I cannot express how thankful I am for everyones advice!

[babybear123]

I wanted to give a big thank you to everyone who helped me! We have had an amazing 1st week. We are on our second and everyone is enjoying the new change! We are enjoying the curriculum so much!! Yes, my oldest has tried to fall into her old ways a few times but the Bible portion is really helping. I want to say thank you again!